It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

lol

Look at the news my friend

if you think Satan is bound and not deceiving nations. That Christ is rulling with a rod of Iron. You are more decieved then even I can help you with.

No. they do not prove satan is bound/

I used the word to prove WHEN it will happen, and WHAT will happen before and after.

Look at Scripture and you will understand what is happening out there. Many Premillennialist are led by the news. That is why there is so much ignorance and so much confusion within the body of Christ.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The arrival of the kingdom of God spelt defeat for the kingdom of Satan. We cannot underestimate the impact and importance off Jesus casting out devils during his earthly ministry. It was crucial, historic and symbolic. That is because it demonstrated that the kingdom of God had arrived and was confronting, overcoming and ruling over the kingdom of darkness. It showed where ultimate spiritual power resided. It also confirmed that Christ was here to open the prison doors of the bound, strip the kingdom of darkness of its influence and exercise real power and dominion over the devil's territory.

Just like Christ used the humility of a child and brought him forward in Matthew 18 and presented him as an example of what it is to be a Christian within the kingdom of God, He used this incident with the subjugation of a demon as an opportunity to highlight the power He had over Satan and presented it as forceful evidence of the spiritual restraint Satan suffered through His life, death and resurrection.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

The setting of this story and circumstance of the demon possessed man was an opportunity for Christ to show the sovereign power of God and articulate a deep spiritual reality. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, ‘if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided’.

Our Savior demonstrates that the powerful deliverances He had accomplished were done by the Spirit of God. They revealed the power and presence of the kingdom of God. Christ showed that the kingdom of darkness was subject to the kingdom of God. To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and invade Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the invasion of Satan’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and rescued the redeemed, translating them into newness of life. Christ has been doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to Christ’s death.

The spiritual chains that were placed on devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God had ordained the plundering of Satan’s house. And this began through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. This gracious work has been now ongoing for 2,000 years. Many from within the kingdom of darkness have now changed camps. “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer calls the shots. They would now operate within very definite spiritual parameters sovereignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions. The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

Taking authority over the devil involves the binding of the strong man, before entering his house and casting him out. The binding here is the prelude to casting the devil out. Christ’s whole teaching here is a layered argument; He is building brick upon brick.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was demonstrating the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo (or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The great tribulation is the 5th seal.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The great tribulation is also seen here

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And the great tribulation is also seen here

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Exactly. However, the great tribulation is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is when the dragon tries to kill the believers, most of which will be Jews at this time. Part of Israel, the seed of the woman, will have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in..........pre trib rapture............before the great tribulation.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


You are correct. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, is the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal, is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. It occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days. After the tribulation they will say peace and safety only to be cast into the wrath of God, which is the 7th seal. Which is the ONE YEAR Day of the Lord.


Only part of those in the great multitude are those that have been slain during the great tribulation.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


No. The great tribulation is over and then the 6th seal is opened and Jesus returns for a harvest. After the harvest the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.


Exactly. But the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. This is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.


No sir. The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You said you are not convinced that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 7th trumpet. Yes, you are correct. We can tell that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal, because the event is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

I will agree to disagree..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The saints being discussed are Jews that are part of Israel that have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

the saints in rev 12 and 13 are gentile believers. the offspring of the woman. which is Israel.

Israel is still blinded in part. and at this time, being protected in the mountains.. as she was told to run

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Someone explain how that verse isn’t talking about the Old Testament saints putting on the righteousness of Christ when Christ died and gave them eternal righteousness.

Because it is talking about tribulation saints. And they are being told they will have to wait until the end of the tribulation until their fellowservants were killed as they were.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

why do you keep discussing daniel 9 when you have refused to look at what I said,.

The church is no in dan 9.. and actually if you believe this, then you should know it does not concern the church. and be open to the fact it is not yet completed.

anyway, i will give you one more change..

Respond to this post. where am I wrong..

here I will repost it. can you show me where I erred. Your friend ran away and did not say anything, will you??
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
The start time of this is in Neh 2. when Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah a command letter allowing him to rebuild the city of Jerusalem.
this was in the month of Nisan in the 20th year af artexerxes.

This ended with the introduction of messiah the prince.

A careful study of the OT says there is but one prophecy which shows when and how the messiah will be shon the jerusalem. that prophecy is in Zechariah
Zechariah 9:9

The Coming King​

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

Further study shows we have evidence of when this happened.
Matt 21: 21 Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. 3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
5 “Tell the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your King is coming to you, Lowly, and sitting on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.’

so here we have the first 69 weeks. In order. literally fulfilled to the day that Gabriel said it would happen.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Again, looking at the historical record. we can see messiah was "cut off" Literally killed) the same week in which he entered jerusalem. when ended the 69th week. So we have this literally in succession fulfilled to the T.
continuing...
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


this is the next event to happen in sequence. although this is a problem.
Looking at historical record. we know this happened almost 40 years after the end of the 69th week. So we already have an issue with 70 weeks being in succession.. because even this, this is not yet fulfilled.
also. Israel was supposed to make an end of her sin by the end of the 70th weel. yet here we have rome destroying jerusalem again (according to lev 26) because of her sin.
so here almost 40 years after the end of the 69th week. we still have no fulfillment.
Also. if we look, this desolation will continue for a period of time, which is predetermined (the end of war desolation's) which we are not told of what this time period will be, so we have an unknown.
continuing...
27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
Here we have another 1 week or 7 year period mentioned. Which occurs AFTER the first 69 weeks. and AFTER the destruction of the city, and its desolation.
We have a He. who is HE? well in continuation, he would be the prince who is to come. and we are told where he will come from. as it is HIS people who destroyed the city in 70 AD (Rome) which also coincides with the 4 beasts of daniel. as the final beast. who will be destroyed by the return of Christ. is Rome..
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
So here we have the abomination of desolation. which is placed in the wing of the temple. and causes sacrifice and burnt offering to cease.
1. This was mentioned by Jesus in matt 24 (Let the reader understand, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. RUN!!! for then their will be great tribulation such as has never been seen, How bad will it get? Jesus says if he does not return, and put an end to it, no flesh would survive.
2. This did not happen in any point in 70 AD. so it can not be the events of 70 AD.
and it did not happen while Jesus walked the earth.
so here we again have something OUTSIDE of the 69th week. and as of today, has not occured yet.
not to mention. at no time in history during this 70 weeks and christ has any prince made a 7 year covenant with many people.. it did not happen.. period. (although there will be people who say it did.. they are in error)
so to conclude
1. SINCE these events have not taken place yet.
2. Since non of the things Gabriel said would happen at the end of those 70 weeks have happened yet
3. Since jesus even spoke to these events in the 70th week as a future event, and by his words (let the ready understand) showing that these events will not take place until after (at the earliest) people can read his words in the book of matthew.
this is a future event
Now you can disagree all you want. Youi said I could not prove it, I just did. Your disagreement does not mean I did not prove my point
Does this prove Pre-mil? No. it has nothign to do with premil. so you using it to try to destroy premil is ridiculous.. because it is not a premil issue.
so again, I would stop. humble yourself. and back away and stop trying to divide on things you do not understand

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where does Romans 11 mention a rapture of the Church? Where does Romans 11 mention your tribulation period following that? Where does Romans 11 mention a 3rd coming of Christ? You force your false teaching into every passage where it does not exist.

it does not mention it.

see what I mean, your all over the place. you do not even know what we believe.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have never seen any of them defend postrib rapture.
The have 1 banner verse in Matthew, but , ironically,can not comprehend it.
Their verse says Angels gather the elect from heaven.
Can not be the rapture on several fronts.
So...no verses....bizarre!

he is not post trib, he would be amill or preterist?? I am lost on what they all mean.. but he is not post trib which is a premil belief

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Here is when He got His eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result, the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection were the decisive blows against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Before being cast out of heaven through Christ’s victorious assault on his kingdom the devil had access to both heaven and earth. He had the ability to come before God to accuse the brethren of their sins. When he was cast down he no longer had access to heaven but only to earth.

Revelation 12:11 tells us that “they (the Church) overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony.”

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside. As ambassadors of another nation (a more powerful heavenly nation), we have been given authority over the devices of the enemy. We can defeat in our lives and through the spread of the Gospel.

You have not answered why the woman will be protected for 42 months
why and when satan will go after her offspring for 42 months


until you do this. Everything you say is meaningless. and shown to be in error

You have satan defeated when christ rose to heaven.. there is no 42 months in your belief..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have proved nothing apart from your own ignorance on Revelation 20.

lol.. dude, you are too funny. do you read the things you post?

I posted rev 20 - 22, you have not responded or retuted anything I said in those posts. and you say I am ignorant?

Again, do I need to get my trol spray out?

You are fixated with that now because you have lost all your Pretrib passages.

Your fixated with attacking a believe you do not even understand, and attacking people for things they do not even believe.

should I report you??

 

[IndianaRob]

Because it is talking about tribulation saints. And they are being told they will have to wait until the end of the tribulation until their fellowservants were killed as they were.

So why are these souls under the alter and not in heaven?

Are you one of those who believes in soul sleep?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Look at Scripture and you will understand what is happening out there.

I have.

Satan is not bound, He is decieving not only nations, but he is decieving people. His army is in full force. which him as the head.

Is jesus ruling with a rod of Iron? Do you even know what this means?

I see no evidence of this.. nor do I see the things which will happen then

Many Premillennialist are led by the news. That is why there is so much ignorance and so much confusion within the body of Christ.

No, we are led by reality, and we are led by scripture

When the lord rules. there will be peace.
When the lord rules, the kings of the world will bow to him, and if they do not, they will be punished
When the lord rules. all things will be restored. the lion and lamb will be together and not be afraid. the baby and the serpent will live in harmony..

Jesus is restraining now. He is not rulling now. If he is? You can have this world. because I want nothing to do with a ruler who allows this stuff to go while he is supposedly ruling as he was promised to rule

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So why are these souls under the alter and not in heaven?

Are you one of those who believes in soul sleep?

if they were in soul sleep. they would not be able to talk to the king and cry out for God to put an end to it..

These particular people are those killed in the tribulation.

the rest of the people were shown in the throne room before Jesus opened his first seal.. now while they may be in the same room. they are not the one crying out in chapter 6

 

[IndianaRob]

if they were in soul sleep. they would not be able to talk to the king and cry out for God to put an end to it..

These particular people are those killed in the tribulation.

the rest of the people were shown in the throne room before Jesus opened his first seal.. now while they may be in the same room. they are not the one crying out in chapter 6

I’m confused by what you’re saying. Are the souls under the alter in heaven or no?

 

[WPM]

why do you keep discussing daniel 9 when you have refused to look at what I said,.

The church is no in dan 9.. and actually if you believe this, then you should know it does not concern the church. and be open to the fact it is not yet completed.

anyway, i will give you one more change..

Respond to this post. where am I wrong..

here I will repost it. can you show me where I erred. Your friend ran away and did not say anything, will you??
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
The start time of this is in Neh 2. when Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah a command letter allowing him to rebuild the city of Jerusalem.
this was in the month of Nisan in the 20th year af artexerxes.

This ended with the introduction of messiah the prince.

A careful study of the OT says there is but one prophecy which shows when and how the messiah will be shon the jerusalem. that prophecy is in Zechariah
Zechariah 9:9

The Coming King​

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

Further study shows we have evidence of when this happened.
Matt 21: 21 Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. 3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
5 “Tell the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your King is coming to you, Lowly, and sitting on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.’

so here we have the first 69 weeks. In order. literally fulfilled to the day that Gabriel said it would happen.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Again, looking at the historical record. we can see messiah was "cut off" Literally killed) the same week in which he entered jerusalem. when ended the 69th week. So we have this literally in succession fulfilled to the T.
continuing...
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:25-26a says, “Know therefore and understand, that from (1) the going forth of the commandment to (2) restore and to build Jerusalem unto (3) the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

In the previous verse we have the total duration described as 70 weeks or 490 years. In verse 25 these 70 weeks are split into 3 parts, albeit the last week is still not yet specifically described:

7 = 49 yrs
62 = 434 yrs
1 = 7 yrs

Whilst, the last week is still not fully described we will look at the overall outline at this juncture for a blueprint.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The angel said of the first aspect relating to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, in the first seven weeks, “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) commences with the start of Christ’s earthly ministry and sees the crucifixion half way through it (3 ½ yrs). The other 3 ½ yrs saw the Church receive its baptism of fire at Pentecost and enter into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel – the nations now being open to the Gospel, unlike before.

The question the futurists must answer is: is there any division in time between the 7th and 8th weeks?

The answer, of course, is a categorical NO!

Then, what scriptural warrant is there for, in unprecedented manner, decapitating this harmonious cohesive Messianic prophecy, aimlessly and indefinitely projecting the final week 2000 years+ into the unknown to a supposed end-time 7-year period, when it was perfectly fulfilled in the life and time of our Lord’s ministry, especially when there is absolutely NO corroborated in the New Testament for this 70th week gap-theory. As we have already stated, probably, the most distasteful aspect of this corrupt teaching is how they corruptly attribute it to anti-Christ at the end when it explicitly relates to Christ and His atonement 2000 years ago? To be honest, with this form of hermeneutics you could potentially corrupt any Old Testament passage and apply it to whatever time-period or matter one wishes.

The text does not in any way demand a gap; the Futurists unilaterally (without any scriptural warrant and for his own reason) chooses to insert one there in order to support his unsound theology. Those who do or condone such are unquestionably gap-theorists.

The text does demand – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

These 6 elements must therefore be fulfilled (1) in Messiah, and (2) must come mid-way through the final week. The desolation is not within the 70 weeks, it is the visible result of the fulfilment of numbers 1-6 in the midst of the week i.e. the rendering of the temple’s former use obsolete.

What is the greater abomination, rejecting the once all-sufficient sacrifice of Calvary, as the Jews evidently did (and are doing), or abolishing or rejecting any idolatrous animal sacrifices in an imaginary temple? The Pretrib scenario is fanciful anyway as the temple has been (and is being) built – Christ’s body.

The “overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious idolatrous continuing of the temple sacrifices by the Jews after they were abolished at Calvary (1/2 way through the final week). And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practicing of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.

 

[WPM]

When the lord rules. there will be peace.
When the lord rules, the kings of the world will bow to him, and if they do not, they will be punished
When the lord rules. all things will be restored. the lion and lamb will be together and not be afraid. the baby and the serpent will live in harmony..

Jesus is restraining now. He is not rulling now. If he is? You can have this world. because I want nothing to do with a ruler who allows this stuff to go while he is supposedly ruling as he was promised to rule

Jesus is reigning now! There is so much is wrong with your theology that it is difficult to know where to begin. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is king now. He is reigning in majesty upon high now! He is risen from the dead and He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today. You ducked around the Scripture I presented that exposes your BIG-DEVIL and small-jesus theology. Your theology forces Christ to abdicate His throne at the right hand of majesty on high. Your teachers have taught you wrong! Israel’s king has already come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom.

While you, your fellow Premils and the Pharisees did not accept Christ as Christ, many did and do today. Amongst them are most Amils. While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

Listen to how God revealed Christ to the wisemen in Matthew 2:1-2: “behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”

Here you have it! The sacred text testifies to the fact that Jesus Christ was “born King of the Jews.”

John 1:47-49: “Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! … Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.”

As the Lord’s ministry came to an end on earth we see Him entering into Jerusalem triumphant on a donkey. He received the adoration of the people.

Listen to what they were shouting on Palm Sunday. The people declared in John 12:12-15: “Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt.”

Before Jesus death in John 18:36 Jesus told Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

In the next verse, Pilate asked Jesus: “Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”

While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

Israel’s king had come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom to this earth.

The Roman soldiers mocked Jesus in Matthew 27:29: “when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!”

Their derision was directed toward Christ and the title because that is what belonged to Him, and that is what He claimed.

Above Jesus on the cross “Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS” (John 19:19).

By Christ’s own affirmation Pilate inscribed this great title upon the cross.

Kings carry authority. On Christ’s part, all authority. To deny Christ kingship is to deny His authority, because both are inextricably linked.

Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”

Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”

The lion is known as the king of the jungle. It carries great authority and power. That is a very potent symbol of who Jesus is. By the way, the Bible does not say that Satan is a lion. It says that he walks about “like” a lion.

Ephesians 1:17-21, “the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.

Philippians 2:9 says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.

 

[rwb]

So why are these souls under the alter and not in heaven?

Are you one of those who believes in soul sleep?

I've come to believe these living souls being under the alter speaks of the Old Covenant faithful saints who could not ascend to heaven after death before Christ came to set the captives free. Christ did this through His cross and resurrection, and before ascending to heaven, Christ first descended into the place of dead saints of Old called the bosom of Abraham. (see Lazarus & the rich man)

The reason we're told they are under the altar according to grace through faith they received when the prophets foretell of the Messiah who would come to redeem the faithful. Remember Scripture tells us the Gospel of Christ was preached even to Old Covenant Israel before it was preached to the Gentiles. The Gospel was preached even to Abraham before there was a nation called Israel. Those who believed the Gospel of Old foretold by the Law and prophets waited under the altar before Christ came to set them free.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Romans 10:14-21 (KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Now these Old Covenant faithful saints are with the Lord in heaven, ascending there living souls spiritually the body of Christ, where they will remain until time (a thousand years) shall be no longer. (Rev 10:5-7)

 

[WPM]

lol.. dude, you are too funny. do you read the things you post?

I posted rev 20 - 22, you have not responded or retuted anything I said in those posts. and you say I am ignorant?

Again, do I need to get my trol spray out?

Your fixated with attacking a believe you do not even understand, and attacking people for things they do not even believe.

should I report you??

Revelation 20 started with the first resurrection - Christ. It will end at the great white throne - and general resurrection of all.

 

[rwb]

I’m confused by what you’re saying. Are the souls under the alter in heaven or no?

I understand your confusion! These faithful souls could not ascend to heaven until Christ came to set the captives free.

 

[IndianaRob]

I've come to believe these living souls being under the alter speaks of the Old Covenant faithful saints who could not ascend to heaven after death before Christ came to set the captives free. Christ did this through His cross and resurrection, and before ascending to heaven, Christ first descended into the place of dead saints of Old called the bosom of Abraham. (see Lazarus & the rich man)

The reason we're told they are under the altar according to grace through faith they received when the prophets foretell of the Messiah who would come to redeem the faithful. Remember Scripture tells us the Gospel of Christ was preached even to Old Covenant Israel before it was preached to the Gentiles. The Gospel was preached even to Abraham before there was a nation called Israel. Those who believed the Gospel of Old foretold by the Law and prophets waited under the altar before Christ came to set them free.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Romans 10:14-21 (KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Now these Old Covenant faithful saints are with the Lord in heaven, ascending there living souls spiritually the body of Christ, where they will remain until time (a thousand years) shall be no longer. (Rev 10:5-7)

Agree for the most part. And that means the fifth seal was opened at the crucifixtion of Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I’m confused by what you’re saying. Are the souls under the alter in heaven or no?

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

It says those who were slain or killed

not everyone..

and it is while he opned the 6th seal. so it is in my view those killed because they did not recieve the mark. or killed because they believed in Jesus