It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

I can.



The church didnt exist yet in Daniel 9. The whole church age was still a mystery to them. If you keep reading in Daniel in Chapter 12 you see:

Daniel 12:4
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.../KJV

Gabriel the messenger Angel which came to Daniel and revealed these things said that to Daniel right before he left him. Shut up the words and seal the book until the end times Daniel...WHat do you suppose that means?

Can you not see that we are in the end times now? Can you not see that the church age is now? Has knowledge been increased yet? (You bet it has). You can see these things easily unless you have had your head in the sand. Jesus had not been here here yet in Daniel for the church age to exist yet. The Rapture is taked about in the OT but it was still a mystery to them


Anyone who reads it for them self can see this. So don't believe the pretribbers or the posttribbers, go see what the Bible says for yourself.

As an aside, why are absolutely all of your threads to denounce the pretrib rapture? Are you obsessed with it or something?

Posttribbers are saying dont watch for Jesus. Isnt that ridiculous? Yes Brothers and Sisters, watch for the Lord Jesus. Go read it all for yourself and see.

You did not address Daniel 9.

 

[WPM]

the great tribulation is the wrath of God.. It is Gods answer to sin. he has been patient.

The day of the lord is God putting an end to the great tribulation..

God preserves His people through the greatest of tribulation. It is the tribulation of Satan against the redeemed.

 

[WPM]

Um no, Satan goes with all power when he is cast our. and spreads his wrath on this earth. That is part of what causes the great tribulation.

His power is put to an end AT the second comming, when he is bound for 1000 years.

... and then he is released in your teaching to overrun your millennial earth with an army of billions who are like the sand of the sea.

 

[The Light]

the great tribulation is the wrath of God..

Absolutely not. The Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

The day of the lord is God putting an end to the great tribulation..

No. The tribulation is over and then Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. There is a harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The righteous are gathered at the 6th seal and go to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also seen here.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[IndianaRob]

God preserves His people through the greatest of tribulation. It is the tribulation of Satan against the redeemed.

The Covid kill shots are one of the major components of the genocide going on right now and the vast majority of Christians took the shot and many have died from it and many are permanently maimed by it.

If this is the last days and God preserves his people through the greatest of tribulation then
why did God allow these people to take the kill shot?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly! And when does that happen? When Jesus comes as a thief in the night to rescue His elect and destroy the wicked.

No, it does not happen at this time, But thank you

Remember, Peter is directly responding to the wicked in this narrative. That is the context here. He is directly responding to the derision of "the last days scoffers." His whole writing here is a solemn warning to them of the folly of their mocking. Like Christ and the other New Testament writers, Peter points these fools to Noah day where God rescued His people in total and suddenly before He destroyed the wicked in total and suddenly.

What is the derision of the wicked? This: "Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Peter responds directly: "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He first addresses the apparent delay by telling them that time is nothing with God - "be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." He then reminds them that "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He is indeed faithful. He keeps His Word.

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.” God will assuredly keep His Word

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact, there are 3 mentions of this “promise” in 2 Peter 3.

2 peter 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up.

rev 21: 21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

1. These are the same event
2. rev 21 occurs AFTER jesus returns to earth and destroys the final gentile beast, after he throws the beast and false prophet alive into the lake of fire, After he grabs satan and binds him for 1000 years so he can not deceive the nations anymore. After he is released and gathers another army and causes another rebellion that is quickly crushed by Christ.

If you would stop trying to attack a doctrine you do not like and actually sit and study the word. you would realize quite quickly how you have been misled. and while I doubt you would come to pre-trib, nor would it even ever matter. I am not sure I will ever come to this again, you will start to see the major flaws in your own belief system

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You did not address Daniel 9.

Niether have you. I have posted it twice now. and crickets from you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God preserves His people through the greatest of tribulation. It is the tribulation of Satan against the redeemed.

Yes he preserves the woman (Israel)

But the man of sin is given authority to go after her offspring, the saints of god who obey his commands.

Rev 12: 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 13:
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every [d]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the [e]patience and the faith of the saints.


Notice in both passages. The beast is given authority for 42 months, the woman is protected for or times time and half a time (42 months)

This is a future event. it has not happened yet

 

[Eternally Grateful]

... and then he is released in your teaching to overrun your millennial earth with an army of billions who are like the sand of the sea.

yes, after he is bound, and he is crushed. and THEN this earth is destroyed, and a new heavens and earth appear

 

[WPM]

No, it does not happen at this time, But thank you

2 peter 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up.

rev 21: 21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

1. These are the same event
2. rev 21 occurs AFTER jesus returns to earth and destroys the final gentile beast, after he throws the beast and false prophet alive into the lake of fire, After he grabs satan and binds him for 1000 years so he can not deceive the nations anymore. After he is released and gathers another army and causes another rebellion that is quickly crushed by Christ.

If you would stop trying to attack a doctrine you do not like and actually sit and study the word. you would realize quite quickly how you have been misled. and while I doubt you would come to pre-trib, nor would it even ever matter. I am not sure I will ever come to this again, you will start to see the major flaws in your own belief system

The problem is, Premillennialists interpret the whole of Scripture through their faulty opinion of Revelation 19-22. If they let the rest of Scripture explain and locate Revelation then it would all fall into place.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

This is the second coming. The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of fiery regeneration.

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that when the new heavens and new earth arrive: “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

This coincides with various other Scripture which see sin, death and corruption end at the second coming. It is good to compare Scripture with Scripture. After outlining the dissolving of this current earth [Gr. gē] in order for its restoration to a perfect state of incorruption Peter then encourages the believer by saying "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. gē], wherein dwelleth righteousness."

The earth must be regenerated (purified by fire) because it is decaying. It is fallen. The parallel passage in I Thessalonians 5:2-3 that no human that are left behind survive this great climactic event: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Absolutely not. The Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

The great tribulation is a period of 3.5 years of hell on this earth.. Not just one seal.

The sign of the heavens occur AFTER the great tribulation

Matt 29 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Many believe this trump is the 7th trump. I am not convinced..

No. The tribulation is over and then Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. There is a harvest seen here.

Yes. i agree. as shown above.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The righteous are gathered at the 6th seal and go to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7.

The reason there is a great multitude in heaven is because they have been resurrected already.. These are those who were slaign during the great tribulation.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also seen here.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The great tribulation is the wrath of God.. yes the 7th is when his final judgment comes. But even the kiungs of the earth understand, it is the day of Gods wrath. and who can withstand it

Rev 6:
Revelation 6:16
and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

all the seals are part of Gods wrath, all the judgment proclaimed (seals, bowls, trumpets) are Gods judgment on the earth

 

[WPM]

Yes he preserves the woman (Israel)

But the man of sin is given authority to go after her offspring, the saints of god who obey his commands.

Rev 12: 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 13:
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every [d]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the [e]patience and the faith of the saints.


Notice in both passages. The beast is given authority for 42 months, the woman is protected for or times time and half a time (42 months)

This is a future event. it has not happened yet

The Church is found throughout the tribulation period.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The problem is, Premillennialist interprets the whole of Scripture through there faulty opinion of Revelation 19-22. If they let the rest of Scripture explain and locate Revelation then it would all fall into place.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

This is the second coming. The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of fiery regeneration.

The problem with those who reject premill. is they do what they claim others do

Rev 20 occures after the great tribulation. After the return of Christ, and after the reign of Christ on this earth.

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Yes we all agree..

Where we disagree is the timing.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that when the new heavens and new earth arrive: “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

yes, we agree.. But it does not prove your point. or reject my point

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

This coincides with various other Scripture which see sin, death and corruption end at the second coming. It is good to compare Scripture with Scripture. After outlining the dissolving of this current earth [Gr. gē] in order for its restoration to a perfect state of incorruption Peter then encourages the believer by saying "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. gē], wherein dwelleth righteousness."

The earth must be regenerated (purified by fire) because it is decaying. It is fallen. The parallel passage in I Thessalonians 5:2-3 that no human that are left behind survive this great climactic event: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

dude, You need to study more.. Your hurting yourself.. by trying to attack me..

 

[WPM]

The problem with those who reject premill. is they do what they claim others do

Rev 20 occures after the great tribulation. After the return of Christ, and after the reign of Christ on this earth.

Yes we all agree..

Where we disagree is the timing.

yes, we agree.. But it does not prove your point. or reject my point

dude, You need to study more.. Your hurting yourself.. by trying to attack me..

Romans 8:16-23 teaches, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthartos or perishableness or decaying] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Scripture makes it abundantly clear there will be an end to the current fallen state. There will be a day of complete deliverance.

When, then, will this perpetual groaning and travailing of all “creation” in pain, for the expressed reason of the continued existence of the awful “bondage of corruption” within “the creature,” actually be finally assuaged?

Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will be finally delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.”

 

[WPM]

The problem with those who reject premill. is they do what they claim others do

Rev 20 occures after the great tribulation. After the return of Christ, and after the reign of Christ on this earth.

Yes we all agree..

Where we disagree is the timing.

yes, we agree.. But it does not prove your point. or reject my point

dude, You need to study more.. Your hurting yourself.. by trying to attack me..

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 tells us that the regeneration of the creation occurs at the same time as the regeneration of elect man. The glorious eternal kingdom that the saints inherit at the coming of Christ is pristine and perfect. It strictly forbids the wicked and all corruption. It declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

 

[WPM]

yes, after he is bound, and he is crushed. and THEN this earth is destroyed, and a new heavens and earth appear

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

 

[The Light]

The great tribulation is a period of 3.5 years of hell on this earth.. Not just one seal.

The great tribulation is the 5th seal.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The great tribulation is also seen here

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And the great tribulation is also seen here

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The sign of the heavens occur AFTER the great tribulation

Exactly. However, the great tribulation is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is when the dragon tries to kill the believers, most of which will be Jews at this time. Part of Israel, the seed of the woman, will have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in..........pre trib rapture............before the great tribulation.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Matt 29 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Many believe this trump is the 7th trump. I am not convinced..

You are correct. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, is the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal, is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. It occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days. After the tribulation they will say peace and safety only to be cast into the wrath of God, which is the 7th seal. Which is the ONE YEAR Day of the Lord.

The reason there is a great multitude in heaven is because they have been resurrected already.. These are those who were slaign during the great tribulation.

Only part of those in the great multitude are those that have been slain during the great tribulation.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

The great tribulation is the wrath of God..

No. The great tribulation is over and then the 6th seal is opened and Jesus returns for a harvest. After the harvest the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

yes the 7th is when his final judgment comes. But even the kiungs of the earth understand, it is the day of Gods wrath. and who can withstand it

Exactly. But the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. This is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Rev 6:
Revelation 6:16
and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

all the seals are part of Gods wrath, all the judgment proclaimed (seals, bowls, trumpets) are Gods judgment on the earth

No sir. The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You said you are not convinced that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 7th trumpet. Yes, you are correct. We can tell that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal, because the event is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

 

[The Light]

The Church is found throughout the tribulation period.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

The saints being discussed are Jews that are part of Israel that have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[IndianaRob]

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Someone explain how that verse isn’t talking about the Old Testament saints putting on the righteousness of Christ when Christ died and gave them eternal righteousness.

 

[MA2444]

You did not address Daniel 9.

So Daniel 12 doesn't count? Is the Book of Daniel the last book in the Bible?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want to talk Daniel 9, you really have to start in Daniel 1. It's a pretty short story overall. And if you think that Daniel 12 doesn't count for this debate then you have your head in the sand.

How come the Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't in Genesis 1? Does that mean that Jesus didn't come? That is ...ridiculous. You can't do that, lol.

The fact is, I did address it as it relates to Daniel 9 and is highly relevant to the discussion. So, don't try that ok?