It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Douggg]

The great tribulation is God's judgement "wrath" against an evil God rejecting world and we believers are not appointed to God's warth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10​

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Yes, the rapture/resurrection event is those two verses. "whether wake or sleep"

 

[jeffweeder]

The great tribulation is God's judgement "wrath" against an evil God rejecting world and we believers are not appointed to God's warth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10​

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Believers are caught up "raptured" before the years of great tribulation.

Back up a few verses and you should see that believers are encouraged not to sleep as the day of his coming like a thief approaches.
That means we are all still here not taken away.
I will highlight below,

Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night.

3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord].


4 But you, believers, [all you who believe in Christ as Savior and acknowledge Him as God’s Son] are not in spiritual darkness [nor held by its power], that the day [of judgment] would overtake you [by surprise] like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day.

We do not belong to the night nor to darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep [in spiritual indifference] as the rest [of the world does], but let us keep wide awake [alert and cautious] and let us be sober [self-controlled, calm, and wise].

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we [believers] belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope and confident assurance of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us to [incur His] wrath [that is, He did not select us to condemn us], but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died [willingly] for us, so that whether we are awake (alive) or asleep (dead) [at Christ’s appearing], we will live together with Him [sharing eternal life]. 11 Therefore encourage and comfort one another and build up one another, just as you are doing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks of years equals 490 years. You find literal fulfillment through the advent of Messiah the Prince at the coming of Christ. But then you can't fit the final seven literally with the advent of Christ's coming to earth a man. How many years do you believe this final seven shall be since you force a gap between 483 literal years and the ONE WEEK (final seven) when Daniel says the covenant is confirmed, and in the midst of the ONE WEEK sacrifice and oblation cease, and the overspreading of abominations make desolate until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate???

I showed this in my previous post.

the first 69 weeks ended when Messiah entered jerualem on a Donkey as prophesied (remember Jesus over and over said it was not his time, He knew his own timing of when he would come, and how.

Immediately after this, Christ was cut off

almost 4 decades later, The city and sanctuary were destroyed, and Gabriel says it will lay desolate until war desolation (the time) is determined. Which no one knows this time period but God.

After this, we are told a prince who is to come will confirm a covenant for 1 week (7 years) but in the middle of that week. he will defile the temple with an abomination that causes desolation (Jesus spoke of this event, and made a special plea to the "READER" to pay attention. because when they see this to run, for then their will be great tribulation such as has never been seen before or after. so severe is this, that if Jesus did not come back. no flesh would survive.

so we can see from this a few things..

1. The 69th week ended when jesus entered Jerusalem, or at "his time"
2. everything between this event and the confirming of a covenant happens, and we are told this time will continue for a time determined (unknown to us)
3. After this time, a future prince will come, and start the 70th week with the confirmation of some covenant.
4. He will rule for 7 years, as all the prophets say, at the end of this time, he will be destroyed, by Christ himself at his return.

Daniel 9:25-27 (KJV) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How do you justify literal fulfillment pertaining to the advent of Christ coming, then when the last seven doesn't literally fit your gap theory

Actually it does.. See above..But thank you for your concern.

, you must switch from literal fulfillment to a period of time that to date is about two thousand years??? Notice what I've underlined for you. It does not say in the final/last seven, it says ONE WEEK. Since we're talking about things being literally fulfilled with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, why do you force a gap of unknown time into the prophesy?

I do not force anything, as shown above, It is written in the prophecy. Just like the many other prophecies concerning Christ and the suffering servant, which speak of different events that appear to be the same time period. but in which there is a Gap.

as I showed earlier, Isaiah is a great example of a Gap. where it speaks of the coming servant. and Jesus, reading this passage, and stating the first part has been literally fulfilled. in that day. They rest of the prophecy as not to this day happened.

this also takes us to method of interpretation.

If the first verse and first part of the second verse was fulfilled literally.

hence the rest of the chapter will be fulfilled literally also.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly! They simply refuse to accept what is written.

All that was written in Dan 9 must be fulfilled in 490 years which was accomplished when Christ, Messiah the Prince came. The final one week is set apart to bring light to all that Christ accomplished within one week. NOT one week of years as so many seem to imagine.

From the decree issued first by Cyrus, then ratified by King Artaxerxes to the anointing of Christ at 27 years of age is 483 years. The final one week set apart, fulfilling the prophetic 490 years or 70 weeks of years being fulfilled. The final one week of Christ’s earthly ministry is divided from the beginning of His earthly ministry to His cross is 3 ½ days, ends with His resurrection three days (from Fri to Sun) after that, which ushers in everlasting righteousness (eternal life) for whosoever believes the Gospel as it begins to be sent out from Christ’s Church unto all the nations of the earth. The final one week of Daniel’s prophecy was fulfilled through Christ from His anointing to His resurrection, all that Daniel prophesied of Him was fulfilled.

But it all has not been fulfilled.

The destruction of the city did not happen in the 490 year time period
The city is left desolate to this day, not fitting the 70 week time period
there has been no confirmation of any covenant for 1 week
and there has been no abomination which causes desolation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are always adding onto Scripture, something that is forbidden in the Bible. You limit the scale of the destruction, without any contextual warrant, you limit the scale of the wicked destroyed, without any biblical authority. You must do that in order to try and fit your Pretrib/Premil and usher billions of mortals wicked into a still-fallen new millennial earth.

actually he added nothing
But you continue to ignore. twist and reject scripture which shows you are wrong. because of your hatred for a group of people..

Its on you dude.. You still have not even looked at Dan 9.. Take the log out of your eye before you try to remove the spec out of your brothers eye

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course, Premils have to limit the destruction that occurs at the coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3 in order to explain away this explicit text.

Actually no we do not. we just have to put 2 peter 3 in context and when it will occur.

Some try to assign a limited localized extent to the devastation; others try to restrict it to the land or ground above water. They do this by diluting down the meaning of the references to “heavens” and “earth” (ouranos and gē) and especially in regard to the Greek word gē translated earth. They contend we should view this word as ground, land or soil (or the outer surface) of the earth, not necessarily the whole globe. What is more, they then conveniently, and without any textual warrant, localize the judgment in order to facilitate a limited destruction to support their false teaching. Ouranos they say alludes to a part of the atmosphere.

who do you talk to. I have never heard such nonsense..

With this latter approach there are many major difficulties. The most notable is the fact that the Holy Spirit uses these two words (ouranos and gē) consistently in the Word to describe the “heavens” and “earth.” A further significant inconsistency arrives when you arrive at Revelation 20 – the main Premil proof text. ouranos and gē are used at the end of Revelation 20 to described the destruction of the heavens and the earth. Every Premil scholar that addresses this much-debated chapter insists on a literal interpretation of the same. There is no thought that these two words refer to just a part of the atmosphere and or a part of the earth as some Premils suggest. The heavens and earth (ouranos and gē) come to an end. Of course this correlates beautifully with 2 Peter 3, giving us another picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 peter speaks of the total destruction of the heavens and the earth as we know it.

we see it in rev 21

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He did 2000 yrs ago, as the prophet predicted.

Nope.

even jesus himself spoke that he would return

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[rwb]

I showed this in my previous post.

the first 69 weeks ended when Messiah entered jerualem on a Donkey as prophesied (remember Jesus over and over said it was not his time, He knew his own timing of when he would come, and how.

Immediately after this, Christ was cut off

almost 4 decades later, The city and sanctuary were destroyed, and Gabriel says it will lay desolate until war desolation (the time) is determined. Which no one knows this time period but God.

After this, we are told a prince who is to come will confirm a covenant for 1 week (7 years) but in the middle of that week. he will defile the temple with an abomination that causes desolation (Jesus spoke of this event, and made a special plea to the "READER" to pay attention. because when they see this to run, for then their will be great tribulation such as has never been seen before or after. so severe is this, that if Jesus did not come back. no flesh would survive.

so we can see from this a few things..

1. The 69th week ended when jesus entered Jerusalem, or at "his time"
2. everything between this event and the confirming of a covenant happens, and we are told this time will continue for a time determined (unknown to us)
3. After this time, a future prince will come, and start the 70th week with the confirmation of some covenant.
4. He will rule for 7 years, as all the prophets say, at the end of this time, he will be destroyed, by Christ himself at his return.





Actually it does.. See above..But thank you for your concern.

I do not force anything, as shown above, It is written in the prophecy. Just like the many other prophecies concerning Christ and the suffering servant, which speak of different events that appear to be the same time period. but in which there is a Gap.

as I showed earlier, Isaiah is a great example of a Gap. where it speaks of the coming servant. and Jesus, reading this passage, and stating the first part has been literally fulfilled. in that day. They rest of the prophecy as not to this day happened.

this also takes us to method of interpretation.

If the first verse and first part of the second verse was fulfilled literally.

hence the rest of the chapter will be fulfilled literally also.

As I have shown there is NO gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel's prophesy.

 

[rwb]

But it all has not been fulfilled.

The destruction of the city did not happen in the 490 year time period
The city is left desolate to this day, not fitting the 70 week time period
there has been no confirmation of any covenant for 1 week
and there has been no abomination which causes desolation.

There is NO gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week prophesy. Christ fulfilled all that was written there. That's why from the cross before He died He said "It is finished."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

um no,

You can not mix literal and figurative interpretation of events God says will happen.

Prophecy is for those who are alive and witness those events. No one ca witness a figurative event that will never happen.. and determine it is God who fortold these things

Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

Did John literally and personally flatten every mountain and fill every valley that he encountered? No, like Zachariah 14, this is figurative language depicting the earth-shattering impact the truth had upon this globe.


John 4:10, 14: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water ... But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The living waters is the Holy Spirit. The former sea represents Old Testament Israel and the hinder sea represents the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament Church. It figuratively represents the Gospel going out to the Jews and the Gentiles through the power of the Holy Spirit.

You can not intertwine figurative language used to explain a spiritual truth, or a parable. with prophecy.

Prophecy is God says, this will happen. and it happens.. and he declares, who is like him, who can say this will happen and it does.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why ? You are attacking the Pre-trib view with this thread. Can no-one disagree with you ?

he won;t even discuss it.

He is on attack mode.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, at his coming - Premil

jeff, in Zechariah 14:2-5 is Jesus returning to stand on the Mt of Olives, splitting it apart. And then afterward, events in Jerusalem, to come worship the King - Jesus. So there is going to be time left on this present earth after Jesus returns.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

and we know this is not eternity future, it is while still on this present earth. Because there is still sin.

Zech 14. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the [i]punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yep, it is clearly a false hope.

Matt 24 kjv
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

Matt 24 : 9 - 13 is not even during the trib period. it is the time period of the last days. or as many call it birth pangs

We are witnessing these events today as we speak.. all of them..

so this does not disprove pre-trib. nor does it support it.

which is my argument, much of the arguments being made against pre-trib do not even support the view they are trying to make. Such as daniel 9. which I have shown, does not have anything to do with pre mid or post trib,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

After the restraining, satan goes forth in all power of deception and the second coming puts all this to an end.

Um no, Satan goes with all power when he is cast our. and spreads his wrath on this earth. That is part of what causes the great tribulation.

His power is put to an end AT the second comming, when he is bound for 1000 years.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As I have shown there is NO gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel's prophesy.

I saw nothing to support this view.

Can you first look at my view in post "post 86"

here I will repost it. can you show me where I erred. Your friend ran away and did not say anything, will you??

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.


The start time of this is in Neh 2. when Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah a command letter allowing him to rebuild the city of Jerusalem.
this was in the month of Nisan in the 20th year af artexerxes.

This ended with the introduction of messiah the prince.

A careful study of the OT says there is but one prophecy which shows when and how the messiah will be shon the jerusalem. that prophecy is in Zechariah
Zechariah 9:9

The Coming King​

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

Further study shows we have evidence of when this happened.


Matt 21: 21 Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. 3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
5 “Tell the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your King is coming to you, Lowly, and sitting on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.’

so here we have the first 69 weeks. In order. literally fulfilled to the day that Gabriel said it would happen.


26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;


Again, looking at the historical record. we can see messiah was "cut off" Literally killed) the same week in which he entered jerusalem. when ended the 69th week. So we have this literally in succession fulfilled to the T.


continuing...

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


this is the next event to happen in sequence. although this is a problem.
Looking at historical record. we know this happened almost 40 years after the end of the 69th week. So we already have an issue with 70 weeks being in succession.. because even this, this is not yet fulfilled.


also. Israel was supposed to make an end of her sin by the end of the 70th weel. yet here we have rome destroying jerusalem again (according to lev 26) because of her sin.
so here almost 40 years after the end of the 69th week. we still have no fulfillment.
Also. if we look, this desolation will continue for a period of time, which is predetermined (the end of war desolation's) which we are not told of what this time period will be, so we have an unknown.
continuing...


27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;


Here we have another 1 week or 7 year period mentioned. Which occurs AFTER the first 69 weeks. and AFTER the destruction of the city, and its desolation.
We have a He. who is HE? well in continuation, he would be the prince who is to come. and we are told where he will come from. as it is HIS people who destroyed the city in 70 AD (Rome) which also coincides with the 4 beasts of daniel. as the final beast. who will be destroyed by the return of Christ. is Rome..


But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”


So here we have the abomination of desolation. which is placed in the wing of the temple. and causes sacrifice and burnt offering to cease.
1. This was mentioned by Jesus in matt 24 (Let the reader understand, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. RUN!!! for then their will be great tribulation such as has never been seen, How bad will it get? Jesus says if he does not return, and put an end to it, no flesh would survive.
2. This did not happen in any point in 70 AD. so it can not be the events of 70 AD.
and it did not happen while Jesus walked the earth.
so here we again have something OUTSIDE of the 69th week. and as of today, has not occured yet.
not to mention. at no time in history during this 70 weeks and christ has any prince made a 7 year covenant with many people.. it did not happen.. period. (although there will be people who say it did.. they are in error)
so to conclude
1. SINCE these events have not taken place yet.
2. Since non of the things Gabriel said would happen at the end of those 70 weeks have happened yet
3. Since jesus even spoke to these events in the 70th week as a future event, and by his words (let the ready understand) showing that these events will not take place until after (at the earliest) people can read his words in the book of matthew.
this is a future event
Now you can disagree all you want. Youi said I could not prove it, I just did. Your disagreement does not mean I did not prove my point
Does this prove Pre-mil? No. it has nothign to do with premil. so you using it to try to destroy premil is ridiculous.. because it is not a premil issue.
so again, I would stop. humble yourself. and back away and stop trying to divide on things you do not understand

 

[The Light]

The great tribulation is God's judgement "wrath" against an evil God rejecting world and we believers are not appointed to God's warth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10​

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Believers are caught up "raptured" before the years of great tribulation.

This is an incorrect statement brother though few that believe in the pre trib rapture understand. (I believe there will be a rapture before the great tribulation.)

The Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns for a harvest sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The Great Tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the 7th seal.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is NO gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week prophesy. Christ fulfilled all that was written there. That's why from the cross before He died He said "It is finished."

Do me a favor please.

don;t just tell me something did not happen.

Post the passage, and explain what happened.

And again, Please look at my last post. and show where I erred.

You saying I am wrong does not make you right..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is an incorrect statement brother though few that believe in the pre trib rapture understand. (I believe there will be a rapture before the great tribulation.)

The Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns for a harvest sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The Great Tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the 7th seal.

the great tribulation is the wrath of God.. It is Gods answer to sin. he has been patient.

The day of the lord is God putting an end to the great tribulation..

 

[MA2444]

All noise, and no substance. Can you address the Op?

I can.

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

The church didnt exist yet in Daniel 9. The whole church age was still a mystery to them. If you keep reading in Daniel in Chapter 12 you see:

Daniel 12:4
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.../KJV

Gabriel the messenger Angel which came to Daniel and revealed these things said that to Daniel right before he left him. Shut up the words and seal the book until the end times Daniel...WHat do you suppose that means?

Can you not see that we are in the end times now? Can you not see that the church age is now? Has knowledge been increased yet? (You bet it has). You can see these things easily unless you have had your head in the sand. Jesus had not been here here yet in Daniel for the church age to exist yet. The Rapture is taked about in the OT but it was still a mystery to them


Anyone who reads it for them self can see this. So don't believe the pretribbers or the posttribbers, go see what the Bible says for yourself.

As an aside, why are absolutely all of your threads to denounce the pretrib rapture? Are you obsessed with it or something?

Posttribbers are saying dont watch for Jesus. Isnt that ridiculous? Yes Brothers and Sisters, watch for the Lord Jesus. Go read it all for yourself and see.

 

[WPM]

Actually no we do not. we just have to put 2 peter 3 in context and when it will occur.



who do you talk to. I have never heard such nonsense..

2 peter speaks of the total destruction of the heavens and the earth as we know it.

Exactly! And when does that happen? When Jesus comes as a thief in the night to rescue His elect and destroy the wicked. Remember, Peter is directly responding to the wicked in this narrative. That is the context here. He is directly responding to the derision of "the last days scoffers." His whole writing here is a solemn warning to them of the folly of their mocking. Like Christ and the other New Testament writers, Peter points these fools to Noah day where God rescued His people in total and suddenly before He destroyed the wicked in total and suddenly.

What is the derision of the wicked? This: "Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Peter responds directly: "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He first addresses the apparent delay by telling them that time is nothing with God - "be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." He then reminds them that "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He is indeed faithful. He keeps His Word.

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.” God will assuredly keep His Word

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact, there are 3 mentions of this “promise” in 2 Peter 3.