Not so. I refer you back to the evidence I presented and which you totally avoided.
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
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Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!
Where do the gospels mention God coming down from heaven and punishing the earth for murdering his son? They don’t mention it. Does that mean it didn’t happen? No it doesn’t.
Bible doctrine is always understood by “here a little there a little”. You’re never going to get the complete story from one passage in the Bible.
The Light
Well-Known Member
LOL. What's to avoid? Same old tired crying about nothing. I took your same post apart piece by piece in the past. There is no mention of the Church. The saint's are the seed of the woman. They are the Jews.
Piece by piece.............I answered all your points and you could not respond.
Where does Romans 11 mention a rapture of the Church? Where does Romans 11 mention your tribulation period following that? Where does Romans 11 mention a 3rd coming of Christ? You force your false teaching into every passage where it does not exist.
We must consider that the very people Pretribbers insist will populate the 7-year Great Tribulation on earth while the Church is allegedly safe in heaven – the Jews – are not found mentioned anywhere between Revelation 4-19. This is significant when you note that the Holy Spirit uses the word ‘Jews’ twice between Revelation 2-3 (which supposedly refers to the Church age???). Also, the word ‘Hebrews’ cannot be found anywhere in Revelation.
We should remind ourselves, it is the non-usage of the words “church” and ”churches” that is the fundamental foundation upon which Pretrib builds its thesis in regard to the book of Revelation. But when we analyse apply this same measuring stick to the subject of the Jews we discover that there is only one solitary reference to the word “Israel” in their supposed “Great Tribulation” between Revelation 4 to 19. This is the only passage where the twelve tribes are identified. One would imagine, if the frequency of use of the word “church”/”churches” is such compelling evidence that the “seven churches” refer to “the Church age” in the two chapters of Revelation chapters 2 & 3 then you would expect the same measure should be applied to the sixteen chapters of Revelation 4 to 19 in relation to the frequency of the words Jews / Hebrews / Israel / twelve tribes.
Moreover, Revelation 7 is the last citing of the Israelites. They are not named, identified or found anywhere else after this. Where are the Jews? They cannot be on earth, and they cannot be in heaven. That is if Pretrib is consistent in its reasoning. Have they joined the Church in limbo-land? Using Pretrib logic we must assume that natural Israel partakes in its own distinct secret rapture soon after the commencement of the Great Tribulation (namely Revelation 7), but that is several years before their 3rd Coming of Christ (Revelation 19). That would therefore make, if the Pretrib logic were right, three further Comings of Christ rather than two as they currently wrongly argue.
Whilst such a supposition is completely ludicrous, it is this type of rationale that caused Darby to invent the Pretrib theory in 1830, and which many preachers defend today. These objections are not minor or irrelevant but do highlight the folly of the Pretrib thinking.
It is not hard to counteract this haphazard reasoning, by simply turning it right back on Pretrib. By doing so we totally dismantle key parts of their teaching. We could equally say to them: ‘It is remarkable and totally you unexpected that John would shift from detailed instructions in regard to Israel and the twelve tribes (namely Revelation and before) to absolute silence about Israel and the twelve tribes for the subsequent 12 chapters (up until Revelation 19) if, in fact, Israel and the twelve tribes continued in the tribulation.
I am using Pretrib reasoning to defeat Pretrib. It simply does not add up! The Bible student will know: the same sword Goliath intended to take the head off David was the same sword that ended up removing his own head. Similarly, the same gallows that Haman created to hang Mordecai on where the same gallows Haman ended up hanging from. Likewise, when put to the test, the Pretrib sword that was designed to destroy Posttrib actually ends up destroying Pretrib. The Pretrib gallows that were intended to hang Posttrib end up hanging Pretrib.
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Where it Revelation 22 does it say that you finally shut up?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Another simple question proving too difficult??
The coming after the trib is on white horses, correct?
What is the setting, depiction, and group gathered in Rev 14.14?
A extremely simple question. What differences do those 2 comings have?
Are they the same ?
One coming?
ANY POSTRIBBER
ANY POSTRIBBER ANSWER THAT SIMPLE QUESTION.
( IF YOU CANT)
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Who taught you that?
The word ekklesia (Church) is found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) referring to Israel. This proves that the terms “Church” and “Israel” are synonymous and interchangeable. Christ and the Apostles employed and quoted extensively from the Septuagint during the early New Testament Church. The word is found 116 times in the New Testament. It was a term that they were very familiar with. The Septuagint was written about 200 years before Christ was born. While Dispensationalists conveniently portray the ekklesia as an Old Testament mystery and a New Testament phenomenon, Christ and the disciples were not so ignorant.
The ekklesia is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX): in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
I have never seen any of them defend postrib rapture.
The have 1 banner verse in Matthew, but , ironically,can not comprehend it.
Their verse says Angels gather the elect from heaven.
Can not be the rapture on several fronts.
So...no verses....bizarre!
Revelation has several recaps referring to the one and only climatic second coming from different perspectives.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
alot of fluff here. And I would agree with you concerning the church.
But you failed to respond to my post.,
the woman will be protected for 3.5 years
Then the beast goes after her offspring and is given authority over them for 3.5 years.
Can you please still to what I said. Nothing you said here refutes anything I said..I suggest maybe stop looking for keywords and trying to defend your position. and actually listen and respond to what other people are saying to you and respond to those posts.
Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.
Satan's defeat came through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Here is when He got His eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result, the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.
Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
Christ’s death, burial and resurrection were the decisive blows against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.
Before being cast out of heaven through Christ’s victorious assault on his kingdom the devil had access to both heaven and earth. He had the ability to come before God to accuse the brethren of their sins. When he was cast down he no longer had access to heaven but only to earth.
Revelation 12:11 tells us that “they (the Church) overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony.”
Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside. As ambassadors of another nation (a more powerful heavenly nation), we have been given authority over the devices of the enemy. We can defeat in our lives and through the spread of the Gospel.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
see here you go again
1. You did not respond to what I said. nor disprove what I said
2. You went off on some tangent, not even sticking to the conversation. (is this because you have no answer you can;t respond to me?
Yes, there will be a complete end to the fallen state AMEN
so we both agree. this has never been a point of contention. The point is WHEN will this happen and WHAT does it look like
now I just PROVED it happens AFTER the tribuilation
After the return of Christ
After he rules and satan is bound for 1000 years
and After satan is released and their is one more rebellion.
so either prove me wrong. Or stop with your nonsense. because you have been refuted
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
lol
Look at the news my friend
if you think Satan is bound and not deceiving nations. That Christ is rulling with a rod of Iron. You are more decieved then even I can help you with.
No. they do not prove satan is bound/
I used the word to prove WHEN it will happen, and WHAT will happen before and after.
You have proved nothing apart from your own ignorance on Revelation 20. You are fixated with that now because you have lost all your Pretrib passages.
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