Is it possible to be SCRIPTURALLY CORRECT AND NOT BE SPIRITUALLY CORRECT?

[Bob Estey]

Define “church” where women are not allowed to speak? Considering I don’t go to any church building to get in the way of the rule of women should not speak in “our building” built with mens hands …it’s simple to not infringe on this fight for who has authority in the church building with its podium.

It’s an age old gender battle, but nobody Ever wants to talk about who is “an adulterous woman” and “who is No more called an adulterous woman, but you(men) have been made free from being called the adulterous woman by the body of Christ, free to bring forth children (fruit) unto God.”

In the case of the men picking up stones to hurl at the woman caught in adultery…they struggle to see they are the adulterous woman themselves. The stones they hurl may be as good as throwing bible verses to prove their accusations, their hurling “stones” at the adulterous woman “do not lust after another”, or “do not turn aside from your husband and go after another in your own lust” …where your husband can drag you before the priest to drink the bitter water containing the curse, “do not lie in another’s bed besides your husband” “do not murder” “do not bear false witness”…to which Jesus Christ tells them “let him who is not guilty, cast the first stone”. They are the adulterous woman taking up stones to cast at “the woman caught in adultery” in retrospect (it’s not a gender thing) but they take up stones against themselves.

I don’t think Scott is trying to devalue “let the women keep silent” but instead if men confess women should keep silent, …they confess (all) women within the body of Christ which has One head, One Lord, which is Christ as the high Priest— should (all) shut their mouths and be silent and in subjection to Christ.
Isaiah 58:13 “If, because of the Sabbath, you restrain your foot From doing as you wish on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a pleasure, and the holy day of the Lord honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,
^how many men saying the women should be silent in the church, speak their own words and not those of Christ? Which ironically makes a full circle back to what you said about Paul’s “let the woman be silent” “in subjection to their own husband” Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. (Note, to me it’s not even speaking of my husband but which are we (you men) are under; the oldness of the letter, or newness of the spirit? That husband either bound (you men) to the oldness of the letter, or loosed from it to serve in newness(you men). Let the woman be in subjection to her own husband. Either in subjection to the oldness of the letter, or in Subjection to serve in newness of sprit. I wish you could see it is which do you serve and not about putting husbands and wives against each other)
…you said Paul spoke his own words and not the words of Christ? Yet Paul understood “woman” clearly given by Revelation of Christ..Paul seeing they are a brawling woman in a wide house while they pointed fingers at their wives, thinking it was their wives spoken of as the brawling woman in a wide house. Missing, unto to their own destruction (same as let the the women be silent), that they are that woman spoken of as “the brawling woman in a wide house”. How many times did God say, why are you as menstruating women, how many times have you gone after your own thoughts and after your own way and your own lust which are NOT My Ways? That is what is happening with “let the women keep silent” which is being interpreted “after their own ways” “after the own thoughts” “after their own lusts”.

It is no accident “let the women keep silent” has given them over to their own reprobate Mind for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved. Given enough rope where “let the women keep silent” will catch the evil one in his own trap. You keep saying that isn’t the way of Christ, so Paul must have wrote his own interpretation. not many will agree but when Jesus Christ told them to go make friends with the unrighteousness of mammon, so that when it fails, they will receive them unto eternal habitations. Does it sound like Jesus Christ to tell them to go make friends with the unrighteous mammon? But it is His saying this…knowing it will fail. This gender interpretation of who is the women told to be silent, will fail.

Read it yourself. Keep in mind I am not saying women shouldn't speak in church. My belief is that Paul misspoke:

[33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
[34] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
[35] If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[36] What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In the bible, the word "church" is never used of a physical building. "Church" in the New Testament can mean two things. It can mean a local body of Christians who meet together to worship God and hear His word preached, and who seek to spread the gospel in their locality. For example:

“To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:” (1Co 1:2 NKJV)

It is also used to refer to all Christians of every time and place:

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,” (Eph 5:25 NKJV)

But never in the bible does it refer to the building in which Christians meet for worship.

But that is the point. If I belong to the glory of Christ and I’m always within the restraints of the True temple of God being laid and built up, growing up in Him, for the habitation of God. Joined too many members, but One body. The way “let the women keep silent in the church” is used then I am not even allowed to ever speak at any time for I can never be not joined to His body. And also the whole focus is on letting wives be in subjection their own husband. What if Christ is the husband?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Read it yourself. Keep in mind I am not saying women shouldn't speak in church. My belief is that Paul misspoke:

[33] For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
[34] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
[35] If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
[36] What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached?

As even the laws says
Let them ask their husbands at home
It is shameful for women to speak in church.

One went to the third heaven and heard glorious things, so glorious to be heard, things so glorious it is “shameful” “unlawful” “inexpressible” to speak such things. Who puts the gag on? When they (those religious and fearful their high seats were being taken away) repeatedly said of Jesus Christ “what doctrine is this He speaks?” “Who has ever heard such things as this man claims?” They did everything to shut Him up. To gag His mouth from speaking of Glorious things. “What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached?”

I get you aren’t saying women should keep silent. I only think in the fight for your saying “is that the Nature of God?” when clear warning it’s given 2 Peter 3:15-18 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. [17] You therefore, beloved, seeing you know these things before, beware lest you also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. [18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

You keep asserting it is so clear it’s in your face clear “let the women keep silent” ending with Did the word of God originate with you?
…I think you are missing to their own destruction. This “to the own destruction” is being given over to a reprobate mind.
Point is Paul(Imo) is not the enemy speaking his own words …it’s what men decide to do with the words which may be to the own destruction. A terror that comes upon the reprobate mind to destroy it… be not fearful when the terror comes. I’m trying to warn it’s what the reprobate mind does with “let the woman keep silent”. But the reprobate mind won’t give up without taking it and running headlong to its own destruction.

You say it’s clear what Paul meant? Yeah? speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Keep in mind I am not saying women shouldn't speak in church. My belief is that Paul misspoke:

Ok I have to get off here. I disagree that Paul misspoke. When Stephen was stoned to death and those who stoned Stephen calling upon the Lord, laid their coats at a young Saul’s feet—what Stephen cried out was “God does not dwell in temples made with hands”. For Saul then to be translated, by the renewing of the Mind, taught by the Revelation of Jesus Christ, unto a mature man, Paul who testified “not I, but Christ lives in me” blows my mind. That is exactly what Stephen saw. God does not dwell in temples made with hands. Paul said repeatedly Christ had risen from the dead and is Alive, dwelling not in temples made with hands.

I disagree. Not to be ugly but do you make yourself out to be the judge of Paul? To me(I say this because I get it’s only my opinion) but for me Paul understood Numbers 5 and the parable of the law of jealousies when a wife goes astray leaving her husband to go after another besides her husband. I say parable because it was to be spoken to those men of Israel being told what happens to the adulterous woman. It was for them to learn about their own doings against God in going after their own idols and lust. Paul was shown by the Revelation of Jesus Christ concerning “woman”. I say this because Paul was Revealed this so clearly that Romans 7 speaks of it is detail. Paul, A New Creature, not I but Christ lives in me, understood who the woman or “women” are far more than all of those telling “women” that Paul said “women should be silent”. It doesn’t matter what I say though. Because if the verse is being used for the benefit of a reprobate mind, missing the point of “an adulterous woman” then destruction will come and destroy that mind. Anything not of God, desiring not to retain the thoughts and ways of God will not profit but come to nothing.

Proverbs 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.

 

[Bob Estey]

As even the laws says
Let them ask their husbands at home
It is shameful for women to speak in church.

One went to the third heaven and heard glorious things, so glorious to be heard, things so glorious it is “shameful” “unlawful” “inexpressible” to speak such things. Who puts the gag on? When they (those religious and fearful their high seats were being taken away) repeatedly said of Jesus Christ “what doctrine is this He speaks?” “Who has ever heard such things as this man claims?” They did everything to shut Him up. To gag His mouth from speaking of Glorious things. “What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached?”

I get you aren’t saying women should keep silent. I only think in the fight for your saying “is that the Nature of God?” when clear warning it’s given 2 Peter 3:15-18 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. [17] You therefore, beloved, seeing you know these things before, beware lest you also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. [18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

You keep asserting it is so clear it’s in your face clear “let the women keep silent” ending with Did the word of God originate with you?
…I think you are missing to their own destruction. This “to the own destruction” is being given over to a reprobate mind.
Point is Paul(Imo) is not the enemy speaking his own words …it’s what men decide to do with the words which may be to the own destruction. A terror that comes upon the reprobate mind to destroy it… be not fearful when the terror comes. I’m trying to warn it’s what the reprobate mind does with “let the woman keep silent”. But the reprobate mind won’t give up without taking it and running headlong to its own destruction.

You say it’s clear what Paul meant? Yeah? speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

And where did that law come from?

 

[Bob Estey]

Ok I have to get off here. I disagree that Paul misspoke. When Stephen was stoned to death and those who stoned Stephen calling upon the Lord, laid their coats at a young Saul’s feet—what Stephen cried out was “God does not dwell in temples made with hands”. For Saul then to be translated, by the renewing of the Mind, taught by the Revelation of Jesus Christ, unto a mature man, Paul who testified “not I, but Christ lives in me” blows my mind. That is exactly what Stephen saw. God does not dwell in temples made with hands. Paul said repeatedly Christ had risen from the dead and is Alive, dwelling not in temples made with hands.

I disagree. Not to be ugly but do you make yourself out to be the judge of Paul? To me(I say this because I get it’s only my opinion) but for me Paul understood Numbers 5 and the parable of the law of jealousies when a wife goes astray leaving her husband to go after another besides her husband. I say parable because it was to be spoken to those men of Israel being told what happens to the adulterous woman. It was for them to learn about their own doings against God in going after their own idols and lust. Paul was shown by the Revelation of Jesus Christ concerning “woman”. I say this because Paul was Revealed this so clearly that Romans 7 speaks of it is detail. Paul, A New Creature, not I but Christ lives in me, understood who the woman or “women” are far more than all of those telling “women” that Paul said “women should be silent”. It doesn’t matter what I say though. Because if the verse is being used for the benefit of a reprobate mind, missing the point of “an adulterous woman” then destruction will come and destroy that mind. Anything not of God, desiring not to retain the thoughts and ways of God will not profit but come to nothing.

Proverbs 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.

You began your post with, "Ok I have to get off here," but you went on for quite a while.

 

[Bob Estey]

Ok I have to get off here. I disagree that Paul misspoke. When Stephen was stoned to death and those who stoned Stephen calling upon the Lord, laid their coats at a young Saul’s feet—what Stephen cried out was “God does not dwell in temples made with hands”. For Saul then to be translated, by the renewing of the Mind, taught by the Revelation of Jesus Christ, unto a mature man, Paul who testified “not I, but Christ lives in me” blows my mind. That is exactly what Stephen saw. God does not dwell in temples made with hands. Paul said repeatedly Christ had risen from the dead and is Alive, dwelling not in temples made with hands.

I disagree. Not to be ugly but do you make yourself out to be the judge of Paul? To me(I say this because I get it’s only my opinion) but for me Paul understood Numbers 5 and the parable of the law of jealousies when a wife goes astray leaving her husband to go after another besides her husband. I say parable because it was to be spoken to those men of Israel being told what happens to the adulterous woman. It was for them to learn about their own doings against God in going after their own idols and lust. Paul was shown by the Revelation of Jesus Christ concerning “woman”. I say this because Paul was Revealed this so clearly that Romans 7 speaks of it is detail. Paul, A New Creature, not I but Christ lives in me, understood who the woman or “women” are far more than all of those telling “women” that Paul said “women should be silent”. It doesn’t matter what I say though. Because if the verse is being used for the benefit of a reprobate mind, missing the point of “an adulterous woman” then destruction will come and destroy that mind. Anything not of God, desiring not to retain the thoughts and ways of God will not profit but come to nothing.

Proverbs 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.

I don't hate or insult people that disagree with me.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You began your post with, "Ok I have to get off here," but you went on for quite a while.

I’m sorry. You are right. I was mostly speaking to myself how that needed to be the last post because the grandchildren are coming to spend the night. They will be here at one, (I’m doing well on time) just getting the house in order and getting myself ready for the day.

Regarding your other post. I’m not trying to insult you. I may get too long winded over it. I struggled for a long time over asking questions like why does God hate me, is it because I’m female. Or why the weaker vessel. People would tell me Christ is not against women. I couldn’t understand how they could say that the way verses are used. I had so many questions. Most coming from how verses were or have been used towards me to make me feel unworthy. I had to consider where those interpretations come from. That is all. I was genuinely wanting to help you, mostly trying to point out I don’t think Paul was against you or your saying, keep in mind, “I’m not saying women should be silent.” I was only trying to help you maybe see Paul maybe would have agreed with you, except you already disagree with him.

 

[ScottA]

I wouldn't recommend interpreting "you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" to mean we will become like the Lord. I think it just means we need to repent of all our sin.

That is a good understanding and response.

However, sharing our "thinking" should be understood as speculation as opposed to what is actually true...which is one of the great dangers I meant to bring to light in this thread. It is in fact the very definition of NOT being silent in church.

It is important to differentiate between discussion of opinion and what the Spirit is saying. Which was to be for the building of the church, as Jesus arranged for these times, first making an example by how Peter knew He was the Christ, followed by seven examples in Revelation and command to "hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Thanks for your participation!

 

[ScottA]

Paul said women can't speak in a church, and you say that is the Word of God.

Yes, and Jesus said "He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Which you seem adiment about not acknowledging even exists...while you continue not being silent in church, but constantly saying what you "think" against what is commanded.

 

[Bob Estey]

Yes, and Jesus said "He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Which you seem adiment about not acknowledging even exists...while you continue not being silent in church, but constantly saying what you "think" against what is commanded.

But when someone says so clearly that women can't speak in church, I don't see how you can conclude the opposite. It makes more sense to me that Paul was wrong about this. Why is it necessary that Paul be right all the time? I don't agree with everything my pastors says, but I can still learn from him.

 

[ScottA]

But when someone says so clearly that women can't speak in church, I don't see how you can conclude the opposite. It makes more sense to me that Paul was wrong about this. Why is it necessary that Paul be right all the time? I don't agree with everything my pastors says, but I can still learn from him.

It is necessary that "Paul was right all the time" because it was NOT Paul who was speaking (in accord with Matthew 10:20). Which is true of all scripture and the continued word from the Holy Spirit to the church as directed by Jesus, just as He promised.

 

[Bob Estey]

It is necessary that "Paul was right all the time" because it was NOT Paul who was speaking (in accord with Matthew 10:20). Which is true of all scripture and the continued word from the Holy Spirit to the church as directed by Jesus, just as He promised.

A lot of people believe as you do. However, believing as you do, I don't see how you can ignore 1 Corinthians 14:33-36.

 

[Verily]

Men are typically stronger than women and able to run faster.

(Mark allusion shamelessly taken completely out of context.)

The fact that only the woman was caught did not escape notice in a couple of our Bible study guides, though.

Its ok lol. I was just thinking to myself, if the act is between two people and they were both actually caught the two in the act while just hauling her up to trap Jesus about the lawfulness of her being stoned to death how could he possibly judge her before all of them there?

To complicate things further, I recall that there was supposedly a debate about the woman caught in adultery not being in the orginal manuscripts, whereas here (contrary to Jesus not judging the woman caught in adultery) it says here

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

So, in one he refuses to judge and in the other God will judge, see what I mean?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, it isn't. The Lord commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves. How would you like women lording over you? Remember when the Lord had Deborah rule over Israel? Where does the Lord tell men to rule over women?

Loving others has nothing to do with the order God established for family and relationships.


Genesis 3:16

King James Version

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16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Ephesians 5:22-24

King James Version

​

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

1 Peter 3

King James Version

​

3 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

These are three places god commanded it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus is my Lord, not Paul.

Jesus is my Lord, but spoke through Paul. Unless you reject all of Pauls writings as not inspired.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Scripture isn't my Lord - Jesus is my Lord.

So you do not believe the bible is the Inspired Word of God?

 

[Bob Estey]

Loving others has nothing to do with the order God established for family and relationships.​

​

​

Genesis 3:16​

​

King James Version​

​

​

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Ephesians 5:22-24​

​

King James Version​

​

​

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

1 Peter 3​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

These are three places god commanded it.

You are assuming the Lord wants men to rule over women. Where did God or Jesus say men are supposed to rule over women?

 

[Bob Estey]

Jesus is my Lord, but spoke through Paul. Unless you reject all of Pauls writings as not inspired.

I follow Jesus, not Paul.

 

[Bob Estey]

So you do not believe the bible is the Inspired Word of God?

I believe God and Jesus are quoted many times in the Bible. We need to obey.