bbyrd009
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Is believing/faith a work ?
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bbyrd009
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hmm...maybe not! :)
i kinda said that on the fly, and you might be right; id wanta hear that rephrased
but my point was that Yah does not need a Sacrifice to make you acceptable to Him
imo
yokefellow
Member
No, I don’t believe believing or faith is a work. Not at all.
…but there is nothing wrong with doing good works, either. Christians saved by Grace should do good works. Not complicated, fellows.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
- 1 Corinthians 15:58 (KJV)
…but there is nothing wrong with doing good works, either. Christians saved by Grace should do good works. Not complicated, fellows.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
- 1 Corinthians 15:58 (KJV)
bbyrd009
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bbyrd009
Groper
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- Faith
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- United States Minor Outlying Islands
bbyrd009
Groper
- Nov 30, 2016
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- United States Minor Outlying Islands
Why is it, i wonder, that believers believe that Yah needed a sacrifice, when they cannot Quote that one single time, but they can Quote Yah detesting sacrifices like what ten times lol
| Ps 51:16 | For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. |
| Ps 51:17 | The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. |
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
You continue to avoid the issue of free gifts having necessary conditions attached in order to receive the free gift:
Noah moved with fear built an ark (necessary condition) unto the saving of his house (free gift of God).
Naaman dipped 7 times in the Jordan (necessary condition) in order to be healed of his disease (free gift of God)
The blind man was told to go wash his eyes in the pool (necessary condition) in order to reveive his sight (free gift of God)
The Jews were commanded to repent & be baptized (necessary condition) for the remission of sins (free gift of God)
There are other examples I could cite but these 4 should suffice.
The simple facts faith onlyists must ignore:
1) in each case GOD put a necessary condition upon receiving His free gift, the condition was not man's idea.
Therefore meeting the condition is NOT man doing his OWN righteousness but it is man working GOD'S righteousness for the condition was not man's OWN idea but the condition was GOD'S idea, GOD'S requirement. Rom 10"3 those Jews were lost for they went about doing their OWN righteousness and would not submit to GOD'S righteousness....they were lost for they refused to obey the conditons GOD placed upon salvation....they would not obey the gospel v16.
2) disobedience in meeting the necessary condition, one fails to receive the free gift.
3) not in any case is obedience in meeting the necessary condition called a work of merit. Obedience to God and works of merit are two totally different things.
4) in each case meeting the condition must happen BEFORE receiving the free gift, that is, one must obey meeting the condition IN ORDER to receive the free gift. They did not obey the necessary condition BECAUSE they already UNCONDITIONALLY received the free gift first. Obedience CONDITIONALLY came FIRST, THEN one received the free gift.
NOT in any case did one FIRST receive the gift UNconditionally THEN some time later obey in meeting the condition:
Noah built the ark IN ORDER to be saved from the flood not BECAUSE he was already saved from the flood
Naaman dipped in the river IN ORDER to recievf healing not BECAUSE he was already healed
The blind man went and washed his eyes IN ORDER to receive his sight not BECAUSE he already had his sight
The Jew repented & were baptized IN ORDER to receive remission of sins not BECAUSE they already had remission of sins.
5) the free gift having a condition did not make Gods free gift grace-less. Though God required a condition to be met, the free gift was still of grace for God did not owe any the free gift He offered. Meeting the condition did not put God in debt. The fact conditions were obediently met did not make the free gift merited or "works based" or anti-grace. To falsely call it 'works based" therefore has no basis in the BIble, facts or reality.
6) the fact God put conditions upon His free gift means man must meet GOD'S terms in being saved thereby man cannot create his OWN terms in being saved. Christ's NT gospel has not made belief only a term in receiving His gift of salvation, that is man creating his OWN terms.
7) Jn 6:27
“Work not for the food which is perishing, but for the food which is abiding unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you”
Jesus settles the issue once and for all time that one must WORK for the food that endures unto** everlasting life....no work = no spiritual food that endures unto everlasting life.
Though one must WORK, everlasting life is something Christ "GIVES", He gives it for free but one must CONDITIONALLY meet the necessary condition of working for the spiritual food BEFORE one can receive the free gift Christ gives.
**one does not work for spiritual food BECAUSE one already has everlasting life but IN ORDER to receive everlasting life.
8) Logical problems if salvation were completely UNconditional:
if the free gift of salvation has no conditions, has no terms to meet, if the gift of salvation were completely UNconditional. then all men would unconditionally be saved (Tts 2:11) and that is the false doctrine of Universalism.
Yet on the other hand, if the free gift of salvation were completely UNconditionally yet some men are still going to be lost, then it must be by a sole choice of God as to which men unconditionally receive the free gift of salvation and which ones do not making God a respecter of persons in His choices as to who will or will not be saved when He is not (Acts 10:34-25). UNconditional salvation would also make God solely culpable for those that are lost when He has no such culpability for men are lost for failing to choose to meeting God's conditional terms He has placed upon salvation.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
You did not even bother yourself to address a single fact I presented but keep repeating this unbiblical, unfactual, unprovable, illogical statement you've created out of thin air. PROVE from the cases I cited that God's gift was not free but merited simply because God required a term to be met in order to receive the free gift. Because Noah, Naaman, the blind man those Jews met a condition meant God OWED them?
Your points are spurious, you are trying desperately to justify the error of salvation by works!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Then no one can be saved if faith is a work since one is saved by grace through faith.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
You avoid dealing with the facts presented....again.
Noah moved with fear built an ark (necessary condition) unto the saving of his house (free gift of God).
Naaman dipped 7 times in the Jordan (necessary condition) in order to be healed of his disease (free gift of God)
The blind man was told to go wash his eyes in the pool (necessary condition) in order to reveive his sight (free gift of God)
The Jews were commanded to repent & be baptized (necessary condition) for the remission of sins (free gift of God)
The Bible is not 'spurious' when it shows God attaching a necessary condition that must be met before one can receive the free gift.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I avoid nothing and the main issue is the free gift of eternal life which is received by faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Adding conditions to receiving the free gift of salvation through faith is adding works to the gospel, which is exactly what you do.
Building the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) Noah and his family did not receive the free gift of eternal life based on the merits of building the ark. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. This was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it.
I often hear Campbellites erroneously compare the illustration of Naaman being healed from leprosy by dipping in Jordan and receiving healing with with people being forgiven of their sins by dipping in the waters of baptism. If being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here. Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptized unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.
The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD and not of salvation by H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation by water baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out. (2 Kings 5:15) So Naaman received healing from leprosy by dipping in the Jordan 7 times, but he did not receive the free gift of eternal life based on the merits of dipping in the Jordan 7 times.
The blind man received his sight by washing his eyes in the pool, but he did not receive the free gift of eternal life based on the merits of washing his eyes in the pool.
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” *What happened to baptism?
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. *What happened to baptism?
So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
None of your examples proved that the free gift of eternal life is received based on multiple conditions/works. Try again.
Don't confuse 'faith onlyists' per James 2:14-24 - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains 'alone' - (barren of works) with those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ 'alone' for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
Your logic is flawed and it's because you teach salvation by works. The Jews in Romans 10:3 were trusting in their own righteousness/works righteousness (just as you are - difference in style but same in substance - works based false gospel) and refused to submit to the righteousness of God. Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. *When will you believe?
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Did you see that?
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
CONTINUED...
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Disobedience = refusing to believe the gospel.
Believing the gospel is the necessary condition for receiving the free gift of salvation. (Romans 1:16)
Adding works to believing there gospel would be works of merit because then we would not longer be saved by grace through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:24) but also based on the merits of our works. You can't have it both ways. Your flawed arguments culminate in works righteousness now matter how much you try and sugar coat it.
That's a lot of smoke and mirrors in your vain effort to justify works righteousness. Your indoctrination runs deep.
Yes, Noah built the ark in order to be saved from drowning in the flood, but not to be saved eternally.
Yes, Naaman dipped in the river Jordan 7 times in order to recieve healing from leprosy, but not in order to receive remission of sins.
Yes, the blind man washed his eyes in order to receive his sight and not in order to receive eternal life.
In Matthew 3:11, we read - "I baptize you with water for repentance.. (NASB) Now was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? (which makes no sense at all) or was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? Obviously the latter. So water baptism does not obtain repentance or the remission of sins, but is done "in regards to/on the basis of" remission of sins received upon repentance. It's the same in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3. John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. This baptism was for "in regards to/on the basis of" remission of sins received upon repentance.
Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.
Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." This was prior to receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)
More smoke and mirrors and sugar coated double talk. You can dance all you want, but it won't change the fact that you teach a "works based" false gospel. I can see that you are thoroughly indoctrinated into Campbellism and are unteachable.
Condition(s) or condition? John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. How many condition(s) did you count in that verse? I only counted one. BELIEVES.
Acts 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. How many condition(s) did you count in that verse? I only counted one. BELIEVES.
Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. How many condition(s) did you count in that verse? I only counted one. BELIEVES.
Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. How many condition(s) did you count in that verse? I only counted one. BELIEVES.
That's all you understand is work, work, work, meet conditions, meet conditions, meet conditions because you teach salvation by works
and remain blinded from the truth. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
Keep reading. John 6:28 - Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works (plural) of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” This was a play on words here by Jesus when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works."
No logical problems and salvation is not 'completely' unconditional. It must be received through faith, not works. When are you going to finally get that through your head?
No need for the universalism straw man argument. The grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men." (Yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's free gift of eternal life through faith). Sadly, many will try to work for it.
I don't teach universalism, so spare me the straw man arguments and don't confuse God's conditional terms for receiving eternal life (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) with the conditional terms of your church.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
1) Noah built the ark IN ORDER to be saved from the flood not BECAUSE he was already saved from the flood
2) Naaman dipped in the river IN ORDER to recievf healing not BECAUSE he was already healed
3) The blind man went and washed his eyes IN ORDER to receive his sight not BECAUSE he already had his sight
4) The Jew repented & were baptized IN ORDER to receive remission of sins not BECAUSE they already had remission of sins.
The above examples are from the Bible and show that God's free gift came with a condition God Himself attached and commanded the condition be met BEFORE receiving the free gift. This means receiving the free gift had to be done on God's terms not man's terms (faith onlyism). And not in any case was a person(s) obedience in meeting the necessary condition ever called a work of merit whereby the free gift was earned. This is what you avoid and continue to avoid for it exposes the fallacies of faith onlyism and why your argument dies here.
Example of your avoiding the issue. You posted:
"Yes, Naaman dipped in the river Jordan 7 times in order to recieve healing from leprosy, but not in order to receive remission of sins."
NOTHING was said about Naaman receiving remission of sins, you simply avoided the point, that point being Naaman's free gift of healing came with a condition attached in dipping 7 times in the river. Here is what you are trying hard to avoid: His obedience in dipping was necessary to meet God's terms in order to receive the free gift of healing. His obedience in dipping was not a work of merit, it earned him nothing and that obedience must come BEFORE receiving the free gift. You pull this same avoidance routine with the blind man when you posted "Yes, the blind man washed his eyes in order to receive his sight and not in order to receive eternal life." Again NOTHING was said about washing his eyes would bring him eternal life but you posted this to avoid that his obedience in dipping was necessary to meet God's term to receive the free gift of sight and his obedience was not a work of merit, it earned him nothing and obedience must happen BEFORE reception of the free gift.
The same is true with salvation, God has put conditions upon the free gift of salvation (belief Jn 3:16 repentance Lk 13:3 confession Mt 10:32-33 and baptism Mk 16:16) and obedience in meeting these conditions does not earn salvation no more than Naaman's dipping or the blind man washing his eyes earned them their free gift. Simply because salvation requires conditions be met is NO DIFFERENT than the other examples that require conditions be met. Not in any of the 4 cases I cited was obedience in meeting the condition(s) said to be a work of merit whereby the free gift was earned, not in any case is obedience called a work of merit nor in any case a condition being attached by God meant the free gift was not free, not of grace.
You try and mix baptisms. Acts 2:38 is the baptism of the great commission that commanded those Jew meet 2 conditions repent & be baptized IN ORDER to receive remission of sins not BECAUSE they already had remission of sins. Matt 3:11 is John's baptism that was different from the baptism of Acts 2:38.
I posted Jn 6:27 where Jesus Himself required one WORK for the spiritual food that endure unto everlasting life which Christ GIVES. Christ GIVES eternal life hence eternal life is a free gift but CHRIST - NOT ME - put the condition that one work for the spiritual food in order to recevei the free gift of eternal life. How do you respond to this iirefutable proof eternal life requires one to WORK for spiritual food that endures unto everlasting life? You responded by posting "That's all you understand is work, work, work, meet conditions, meet conditions, meet conditions because you teach salvation by works and remain blinded from the truth. (1 Corinthians 2:14)" Again you 1) attacked me rather than dealing with the verse 2) I did not say the words of Jn 6:27, Christ did so evidently work work work is all Christ's understands.
Overall you did what I expected..... you either completely avoided dealing with the issues as with Jn 6:27 you tried to restate the argument in a wrong way like saying Naaman's dipping was not for remission of sins when that was never the point.
==============
God's grace hath appeared to all men therefore if salvation has no conditions attached to it at all then all men would be saved and that would be Universalism. You responded by posting "The grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men." (Yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's free gift of eternal life through faith)." You admit conditions are attached to salvation and that men must "accept" God's free gift.
The facts you will not admit to is that men accept that free gift by obediently meeting the conditions GOD Himself placed upon His free gift and meeting the conditions is a WORK as Christ called it and that WORK as Christ called it does not make obedience in meeting the condition a work of merit nor take away the free-ness of the gift nor did obediently meeting God's condition put God in a position where He owed man.
Logically speaking, is God bound by man's logic? Wherefrom came the logic which man applies?
Does logic dictate faith in God alone?
Does logic dictate the necessity of works?
Should we then put God in a box which we [men] have defined by logical understanding of the scriptures we read and make that our AT [Absolute Truth]?
Help us dear Lord to follow You as You lead us!
Does logic dictate faith in God alone?
Does logic dictate the necessity of works?
Should we then put God in a box which we [men] have defined by logical understanding of the scriptures we read and make that our AT [Absolute Truth]?
| O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23 |
| Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face." Psalm 5:8 |
Help us dear Lord to follow You as You lead us!
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