"Not being saved by works so no man may boast" doesn't mean you don't have an obligation to do good, what it means is, that you can't have an ego about doing good deeds. You can't become a self-righteous arse like the pharisees "I donate more money than other men, so I am so much holier and better than them" and making long prayers in public and smearing dirt on your face so everyone will know you are fasting, and making your faith this big show. What your attitude should be is - my good deeds are actually very little, I have not done nearly enough and I should be doing more. Its about staying humble.
Is believing/faith a work ?
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
The Bible teaches salvation by faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and obedience which "follows" saving faith in Christ "is" works. Yet you teach salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). God's will for us to become saved is found in John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
In regards to "faith without works is dead" in James 2:20, this does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, yet lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
*You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.*
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
There is a difference between a deeper faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and mere "mental assent" belief in historical facts about Jesus. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
In regards to Luke 6:46 and Matthew 7:21, seeking salvation by works is neither doing what Jesus says or doing the will of the Father. "Adding works" to the free gift of salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is attempting to earn God's free gift. Obedience which "follows" saving faith in Christ would be works of merit if they were the basis or means by which we obtained salvation.
Either you are trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation or else you are also trusting in works for salvation (at least in part). You can't have it both ways. Salvation by obedience/works which "follows" saving faith in Christ would be works of merit no matter how much you try and sugar coat it.
If our believing/faith is inherent, then its our work, our action to believe in God/Jesus Christ for all Salvation, but if its not naturally inherent, and it be the work and operation of the Spirit of God in us, also the effectual working of Gods grace, then its not of ourselves, but the Gift of God, then the proper contrast of Faith vs works is manifested.
Christ is the author of our Faith/Believing by giving us His Spirit 1 Pet 1:21
21 Who by him[Christ] do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Eph 1:19
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,
Paul attributes his believing and the believers at Ephesus to the mighty working of Gods power, the same power that was exerted when He raised up Jesus from the dead.
So believing, having Faith and Hope in God in the matters of Salvation is Gods work for us and in us.
But if we insist that our believing and faith is of ourselves, then we make these things our work !
Christ is the author of our Faith/Believing by giving us His Spirit 1 Pet 1:21
21 Who by him[Christ] do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Eph 1:19
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,
Paul attributes his believing and the believers at Ephesus to the mighty working of Gods power, the same power that was exerted when He raised up Jesus from the dead.
So believing, having Faith and Hope in God in the matters of Salvation is Gods work for us and in us.
But if we insist that our believing and faith is of ourselves, then we make these things our work !
Is Faith/believing a work ? Yes, but in its proper context its a work done through grace,the grace of the Spirit following new birth or new creation. Its written Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Now believing Faith is one of those good works God hath before ordained that we should walk in them Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
So believing follows the workmanship of God, being created in Christ Jesus unto good works, versus because of good works. Thats why works and faith in scripture can be contrasted, since believing is not of ourselves as natural men, but as new creatures in Christ. Its only when we claim faith/believing as coming from the natural man that the contrast is no longer valid! 29
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Now believing Faith is one of those good works God hath before ordained that we should walk in them Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
So believing follows the workmanship of God, being created in Christ Jesus unto good works, versus because of good works. Thats why works and faith in scripture can be contrasted, since believing is not of ourselves as natural men, but as new creatures in Christ. Its only when we claim faith/believing as coming from the natural man that the contrast is no longer valid! 29
Yes, but maturely: what does that mean? Which works?
If the anti-Christ accused you of failing to defend the faith, would you say "works aren't necessary for me to be saved"? Or would you say "the faith is its own defence"?
I dont understand you. Im talking about if we make anything we do a condition we must perform before God saves us, then thats a work merit salvation opposed to Grace.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The Bible speaks of different kinds of works...good works, wicked works, works of righteousness, works of unrighteousness, works of the OT law, works of merit, works of obedience in doing God's will, etc but no verse eliminates ALL works of ALL kinds.
Romans 4:5-6, Eph 2:8-9, Tts 3:5, etc do not eliminate ALL kinds of work. NOTHING in either the immediate of remote contexts of these passages eliminates all works for that idea is assumed into the verses with no proof given to back it up. No verse(s) at all eliminate obedience to God's will. Nowhere in the first 4 chapters of Romans does Paul ever eliminate obedience to God's will but in chapter 6 makes obedience necessary in order to be justified....obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine then being made freed from sin, verses 17-18....obedience unto righteousness verse 16. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to ever be righteous (right doing) apart from obedying God's will for God never made one righteous while one continued to live in rebellion, disobedience to God's will.
This is why no where ever is obedience to God's will ever called a work of merit for obedience and works of merit are two completely different, separate things. It is a logical fallacy, an outright denial of fact and reality to calim free gifts cannot have conditions attached. The condition(s) can enable one to receive the free gift or disqualify one from receiving the free gift. Obediently building the ark enabled Noah to receive the free gift of salvation from the flood while disobeying would have disqualified Noah from receving that free gift leaving Noah todrown with the wicked. The fact that a condition was attached made it no less a free gift or that the gift was earned by the obedience. It ironically would take a lot of work for someone to purposefully misunderstand and deny such simple facts and reality...fact and reality that is found over and over again in the Bible.
---obedience to God is not a work of merit
--no one was saved while continuing to live in disobedience to God's will
--obedience to God's will is the only solution to being dead to sin
--man has been given commands to obey in order to be saved
--no one was ever told to think out your salvation but work out your salvation for doing nothing has never saved anyone.
Romans 4:5-6, Eph 2:8-9, Tts 3:5, etc do not eliminate ALL kinds of work. NOTHING in either the immediate of remote contexts of these passages eliminates all works for that idea is assumed into the verses with no proof given to back it up. No verse(s) at all eliminate obedience to God's will. Nowhere in the first 4 chapters of Romans does Paul ever eliminate obedience to God's will but in chapter 6 makes obedience necessary in order to be justified....obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine then being made freed from sin, verses 17-18....obedience unto righteousness verse 16. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to ever be righteous (right doing) apart from obedying God's will for God never made one righteous while one continued to live in rebellion, disobedience to God's will.
This is why no where ever is obedience to God's will ever called a work of merit for obedience and works of merit are two completely different, separate things. It is a logical fallacy, an outright denial of fact and reality to calim free gifts cannot have conditions attached. The condition(s) can enable one to receive the free gift or disqualify one from receiving the free gift. Obediently building the ark enabled Noah to receive the free gift of salvation from the flood while disobeying would have disqualified Noah from receving that free gift leaving Noah todrown with the wicked. The fact that a condition was attached made it no less a free gift or that the gift was earned by the obedience. It ironically would take a lot of work for someone to purposefully misunderstand and deny such simple facts and reality...fact and reality that is found over and over again in the Bible.
---obedience to God is not a work of merit
--no one was saved while continuing to live in disobedience to God's will
--obedience to God's will is the only solution to being dead to sin
--man has been given commands to obey in order to be saved
--no one was ever told to think out your salvation but work out your salvation for doing nothing has never saved anyone.
Once you condition Salvation on anything you do, its works Salvation and its anti grace !
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The Bible has many examples of God's gracious free gift having a condition and no one's obedience in meeting the condition is said to be a work of merit. God commanded Noah to do the obedient work in building the ark in order to recevie God's free gift of salvation from the flood.
If what you say above is true, then God commanding Noah to do the work in building the ark must mean God wanted Noah to earn His free gift of salvation from the flood by commanding Noah to do the meritorious work of building the ark whereby God owed it to Noah to save him from the flood. Of course this makes absolutely no sense for your argument is not based an any logic, facts or reality but made up out of thin air to try and protect faith onlyism. This is a reason why people should not put faith in man-made teachings as faih onlyism for it puts man in a position to have to go against logic, facts and reality.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7) Salvation from drowning in the flood and salvation from our sins and hell are two different things.
You keep saying 'faith onlyism' per James 2:24 as if we teach that we are saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works (James 2:14) yet that is NOT what genuine believers teach. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
So it's your argument that is not based on any logic, facts or reality, but man made Campbellism theories. All you care about is protecting your "works based" false gospel, which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.
Once again :
Once you condition Salvation on anything you do, its works Salvation and its anti grace
Right and if we keep from making our salvation a question of works, then our works will be greater.
It's just a direct consequence - first the faith, then the works.
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Still haven't finished reading through the thread.
"Is faith/believing a work?"
Man, I don't know. Right now it feels like there are verses decribing faith as a gift and verses describing faith as a work.
It may be good for me to study and come back to this one.
"Is faith/believing a work?"
Man, I don't know. Right now it feels like there are verses decribing faith as a gift and verses describing faith as a work.
It may be good for me to study and come back to this one.
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Romans 3:27
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.Romans 4:5
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.These two verses are treating faith and work as separate. So no, I don't think faith is a work.
Faith isnt our work if we realize its the product of the New Birth and not of ourselves naturally. But if say your act of faith, or believing was of yourself while you were yet unregenerate, and after you exercised your natural faith, God saved you, then that's works and against the scriptures you quoted.
If faith is a work, how great is that work?
If Salvation is by grace, how great is that grace?
We are not bound to one or the other.
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I'm a bit confused as to how this means faith is a work. Faith isn't of ourselves. Faith comes by hearing. We wouldn't have come up with the gospel on our own. Are there Scriptures that are against the Scriptures I quoted?
The problem is that once you have received God's grace, it's better to get going. Just sitting on a definition isn't going to bring God to a dying world.
If you know that faith worked, make having worked a priority.
Come to me a thousand times saying "I have faith" and I am going to say "make the work of it a priority".
If one has faith prove it ! prove one is worthy of faith in Christ Jesus ?
Is little faith proof ? well it's a start and as in the parable of the seed story we can see that it can die ? but that that is a faith that can move mountains can not be strangled by the weeds !
So one must be truly born again in fact to be truly worthy of Christ Jesus and is not of this world that Jesus pointed out.
Are we the truly born again working for our faith ! No ! but we are abiding in the Vine, that's Christ Jesus ! and what we do in him is bearing fruit ! we have no claim to such at all, but such is the glory in him and he gets given the glory, not us !
If we claim the glory that means it's not of Christ Jesus but of ourselves ? such a one is a idiot ! Carnal dupe !
Look what I did ! ? How about that stupid song, I did it my way ! ? that's Serving ones self and your ego.
Is little faith proof ? well it's a start and as in the parable of the seed story we can see that it can die ? but that that is a faith that can move mountains can not be strangled by the weeds !
So one must be truly born again in fact to be truly worthy of Christ Jesus and is not of this world that Jesus pointed out.
Are we the truly born again working for our faith ! No ! but we are abiding in the Vine, that's Christ Jesus ! and what we do in him is bearing fruit ! we have no claim to such at all, but such is the glory in him and he gets given the glory, not us !
If we claim the glory that means it's not of Christ Jesus but of ourselves ? such a one is a idiot ! Carnal dupe !
Look what I did ! ? How about that stupid song, I did it my way ! ? that's Serving ones self and your ego.
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