Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Doug]

I though you were ignoring me? Can you not keep your word?

This above is typical of you manipulating Scripture to support what you have been taught.

Look at what scripture says about the first resurrection

[Rev 20:4 KJV] 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Those above are those who have not worshiped the beast or taken the mark..........they were beheaded so they were dead......they lived so they are resurrected,,,,they will reign with Christ a thousand years,,,,,,,Christ will set up his kingdom on earth (Isiah 9:6-7) and they will reign with him

[Rev 20:5 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is comprised of those in verse 4 ........the rest of the dead were not resurrected until the thousand years were done (These are the wicked unbelievers)

[Rev 20:6 KJV] 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those in the first resurrection, which includes those in verse 4, shall be priests of God

Who are the priests of God who will have part in the first resurrection

[Exo 19:5-6 KJV] 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Israel is those who will be priests in the kingdom which will last a thousand years

[Isa 61:6 KJV] 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: [men] shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Israel are the priests

[1Pe 2:9 KJV] 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Peter says Israel is a priesthood

[Mat 8:11-12 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The first resurrection therefore is comprised of the priesthood which is believing Israel and as seen above the old testament saints will be resurrected to be in the kingdom on earth

 

[WPM]

I don't see that being problematic for Premil, and one reason why is the following. Plus you already provided the solution when you said this--They are changed in a moment and caught up to be with Jesus in the air.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ehold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

This gives the impression that only those that have physically died are meant here. Except we know that no one can literally live forever unless all of the following happens to them first.

shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Obviously, those still alive and caught up in the rapture, this change has to happen to them as well even though they never physically died at any time. Because, if this change is not including them that can only mean they remain mortal for all eternity, except no mortal could possibly live forever. Therefore, this particular argument of yours is a weak one not a strong one.

If Premils take the 2nd death having no power over you to be meaning when one is in an immortal body state, obviously those caught up in the rapture will also be in an immortal body state once this change takes place in them as well.

The means of escaping the second death in Premillennialism is physical resurrection when Jesus comes (this is their understanding of the first resurrection). So, physically living people are not physically resurrected. That is because they do not physically die at the second coming. They are changed and caught up. This is altogether different from resurrection. This demolishes the whole Premil thesis. In the Premillennialist school of thought, the living redeemed who are on earth when Jesus comes miss out on the first resurrection, and therefore victory over the second death, the stated means of overcoming it. So too do all the supposed mortal millennial converts who get saved after the Premillennialism first resurrection.

 

[WPM]

Look at what scripture says about the first resurrection

[Rev 20:4 KJV] 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Those above are those who have not worshiped the beast or taken the mark..........they were beheaded so they were dead......they lived so they are resurrected,,,,they will reign with Christ a thousand years,,,,,,,Christ will set up his kingdom on earth (Isiah 9:6-7) and they will reign with him

[Rev 20:5 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is comprised of those in verse 4 ........the rest of the dead were not resurrected until the thousand years were done (These are the wicked unbelievers)

[Rev 20:6 KJV] 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those in the first resurrection, which includes those in verse 4, shall be priests of God

Who are the priests of God who will have part in the first resurrection

[Exo 19:5-6 KJV] 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Israel is those who will be priests in the kingdom which will last a thousand years

[Isa 61:6 KJV] 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: [men] shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Israel are the priests

[1Pe 2:9 KJV] 9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Peter says Israel is a priesthood

[Mat 8:11-12 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The first resurrection therefore is comprised of the priesthood which is believing Israel and as seen above the old testament saints will be resurrected to be in the kingdom on earth

The first resurrection is shown throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first [Gr. protos] that should rise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn [Gr. prototokos] from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). The Greek word prototokos means firstborn or first in time. It can also mean first in position or highest ranking person.

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten [Gr. prototokos] of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first [Gr. protos] resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

This is evidence! This is corroboration!

 

[Doug]

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first [Gr. protos] that should rise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

I dont see saying he was first to be raised means thats the first resurrection in Rev 20
Acts 26:23 doesnt say its the first resurrection

 

[WPM]

Doug said:

I dont see saying he was first to be raised means thats the first resurrection in Rev 20
Acts 26:23 doesnt say its the first resurrection

Yes it does. Premils ignore the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[Doug]

Yes it does. Premils ignore the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Yes it does. Premils ignore the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit.

I didnt ignore it in my post...................

THERE ARE FIVE RESURRECTIONS PART ONE OF TWO​

RESSURECTION NUMBER ONE

[1Co 15:22-23 KJV] 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Here is the first resurrection. Jesus is the firstfruits ; without his resurrection we have no hope, our faith is vain and we are dead in our sins (1 Cor 15:17).

[Jhn 12:48 KJV] 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
[Jhn 16:11 KJV] 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The associated judgement is upon those who reject Christ and upon the prince of this world, which is Satan.

There is an order to the rest of the resurrections, and we will go through them in order (1 Cor 15:23).
..

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave.

Yes there is and it identified ...............[Rev 20:5 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
It could mean this is the first resurrection promised and following and initiated by his resurrection

 

[WPM]

Yes there is and it identified ...............[Rev 20:5 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
It could mean this is the first resurrection promised and following and initiated by his resurrection

Lol. Then it would not be the first resurrection.

 

[Doug]

Lol. Then it would not be the first resurrection.

[Rev 20:5 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

look at it this way at the end there are two resurrections........the just and the unjust [Act 24:15 KJV] 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust........the first of two resurrections are those in Rev 20:4 (the just)........the second are the dead (the unjust) in Rev 20:5

 

[WPM]

[Rev 20:5 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

look at it this way at the end there are two resurrections........the just and the unjust [Act 24:15 KJV] 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust........the first of two resurrections are those in Rev 20:4 (the just)........the second are the dead (the unjust) in Rev 20:5

This passage is comparing those who are currently reigning with Christ in glory to those who are not. Remember, this could only happen as a result of Christ's victorious resurrection 2000 years ago. It could not happen before that. Revelation 20 is a triumphant passage relating to Christ' s victory over sin, death, Satan and Hades through His First Advent.

This is simply a contrast between 2 distinct peoples who belong to 2 different camps who experience 2 different outcomes, reside in 2 different locations upon death and abide forever in 2 different eternal states.

 

[WPM]

[Rev 20:5 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

look at it this way at the end there are two resurrections........the just and the unjust [Act 24:15 KJV] 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust........the first of two resurrections are those in Rev 20:4 (the just)........the second are the dead (the unjust) in Rev 20:5

When Christ came, justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan - the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) - the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) - the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

 

[Doug]

This passage is comparing those who are currently reigning with Christ in glory to those who are not. Remember, this could only happen as a result of Christ's victorious resurrection 2000 years ago. It could not happen before that. Revelation 20 is a triumphant passage relating to Christ' s victory over sin, death, Satan and Hades through His First Advent.

This is simply a contrast between 2 distinct peoples who belong to 2 different camps who experience 2 different outcomes, reside in 2 different locations upon death and abide forever in 2 different eternal states.

ok good discussion look forward to more

 

[WPM]

ok good discussion look forward to more

Ok.

 

[Doug]

When Christ came, justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan - the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) - the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) - the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

I dont see how this relates to my entry

When Christ came, justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan - the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) - the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) - the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

look at it this way at the end there are two resurrections........the just and the unjust [Act 24:15 KJV] 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust........the first of two resurrections are those in Rev 20:4 (the just)........the second are the dead (the unjust) in Rev 20:5

How does what you cited relate to my response above.......please tell me

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first [Gr. protos] that should rise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

I dont see saying he was first to be raised means thats the first resurrection in Rev 20
Acts 26:23 doesnt say its the first resurrection

Yes, it most certainly does. Acts 26:23 says that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead. It contains the same Greek phrase "protos anastasis" that is translated as "first resurrection" in Revelation 20.

In 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 Paul gives the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality as being Christ's first and next in order are those who are Christ's at His second coming. So, since other scripture teaches that His resurrection is the first resurrection, why would that not be the case in Revelation 20 as well? We need to allow scripture to interpret itself whenever possible.

 

[WPM]

I dont see how this relates to my entry


look at it this way at the end there are two resurrections........the just and the unjust [Act 24:15 KJV] 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust........the first of two resurrections are those in Rev 20:4 (the just)........the second are the dead (the unjust) in Rev 20:5

How does what you cited relate to my response above.......please tell me

When you do not see Rev 20 as current you will see that the redeemed dead are currently reigning in glory since Christ emptied Hades.

 

[Doug]

Yes, it most certainly does. Acts 26:23 says that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead. It contains the same Greek phrase "protos anastasis" that is translated as "first resurrection" in Revelation 20.

In 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 Paul gives the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality as being Christ's first and next in order are those who are Christ's at His second coming. So, since other scripture teaches that His resurrection is the first resurrection, why would that not be the case in Revelation 20 as well? We need to allow scripture to interpret itself whenever possible.

I think the main point is that they rose from the dead
Rev 20:4 says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years........they are the believing remnant of Israel

 

[Doug]

When you do not see Rev 20 as current you will see that the redeemed dead are currently reigning in glory since Christ emptied Hades.

I dont see Jesus emptying hades...........below is a post about this......little long of an answer...sorry

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Does this verse say that Christ, after his resurrection, led the old testament saints into heaven?

The first thing to examine is, what does it mean to lead captivity captive.

Judges 5:12 Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.

This song commemorates Israel being freed, in Judges 4:14, from the captivity of Sisera.

Isaiah 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

In the above verse, when it says "they shall take them captives, whose captives they were", it is saying, Israel shall take captive, those who held them in captivity.

It can therefore be concluded, that to lead captivity captive, is to take into captivity, those who beforehand oppressed.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 68 above says, "thou hast received gifts for men: yea, for the rebellious also": Israel was counted among the rebellious when, in Acts 2:23, they were accused of slaying Jesus, the Lord of glory.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Psalm 68:18 says that Jesus "hast received gifts for men", which can be evidenced in the verse above when the Holy Ghost was shed forth unto Israel (Luke 24:49 Acts 1:4).

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If it is contended that the old testament saints were taken to heaven after the resurrection of Christ, it is not supported by the fact that David, an old testament saint for sure, has not ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In fact, according to John, no man had yet ascended up to heaven.

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John, in the above verse, sets the time frame of his epistle, as being after the resurrection of Christ, and eliminates the contention to place John 3:13 before the resurrection, which would favor saying that men ascended into heaven after the resurrection.

Ephesians 4:8 can be best understood in light of the following verses:

Colossains 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Christ spoiled principalities in heavenly places, that is the devil and his angels.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

This verse asserts that Christ, through death, destroyed the devil.

[2Ti 2:26 KJV] 26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Christ did not empty paradise when he ascended, but rather he led the captivity of the devil, captive.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise, as I understand it, is Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31). In Luke 23:43, today is significant, in that, it specifies that Christ has yet to ascend into heaven according to John 20:17, and therefore, would not be taking one of the malefactors to heaven.

The last verse to consider is [Rev 13:10 KJV] 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The Devil led us into his captivity and was taken captive.

 

[WPM]

I dont see Jesus emptying hades...........below is a post about this......little long of an answer...sorry

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Does this verse say that Christ, after his resurrection, led the old testament saints into heaven?

The first thing to examine is, what does it mean to lead captivity captive.

Judges 5:12 Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.

This song commemorates Israel being freed, in Judges 4:14, from the captivity of Sisera.

Isaiah 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

In the above verse, when it says "they shall take them captives, whose captives they were", it is saying, Israel shall take captive, those who held them in captivity.

It can therefore be concluded, that to lead captivity captive, is to take into captivity, those who beforehand oppressed.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 68 above says, "thou hast received gifts for men: yea, for the rebellious also": Israel was counted among the rebellious when, in Acts 2:23, they were accused of slaying Jesus, the Lord of glory.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Psalm 68:18 says that Jesus "hast received gifts for men", which can be evidenced in the verse above when the Holy Ghost was shed forth unto Israel (Luke 24:49 Acts 1:4).

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If it is contended that the old testament saints were taken to heaven after the resurrection of Christ, it is not supported by the fact that David, an old testament saint for sure, has not ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In fact, according to John, no man had yet ascended up to heaven.

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John, in the above verse, sets the time frame of his epistle, as being after the resurrection of Christ, and eliminates the contention to place John 3:13 before the resurrection, which would favor saying that men ascended into heaven after the resurrection.

Ephesians 4:8 can be best understood in light of the following verses:

Colossains 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Christ spoiled principalities in heavenly places, that is the devil and his angels.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

This verse asserts that Christ, through death, destroyed the devil.

[2Ti 2:26 KJV] 26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Christ did not empty paradise when he ascended, but rather he led the captivity of the devil, captive.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise, as I understand it, is Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31). In Luke 23:43, today is significant, in that, it specifies that Christ has yet to ascend into heaven according to John 20:17, and therefore, would not be taking one of the malefactors to heaven.

The last verse to consider is [Rev 13:10 KJV] 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The Devil led us into his captivity and was taken captive.

The whole basis of your argument is built upon sand. You force your opinion upon the sacred text. Nowhere in Luke 16:19-31 does it say Abraham's bosom is paradise. Quite the opposite. The reader can see for themselves that this is your own invention. Everything after this extra-biblical claim is therefore erroneous.

What is more, Luke 23:43 nowhere teaches paradise is Abraham's bosom. This is another opinion you force on God's Word.

Let us let Scripture speak for itself. It shows that paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem

In the New Testament, Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem. It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.

In Revelation 21:2 “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, “In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life … Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.

Paradise was lost right up until the cross. It only became accessible through Christ’s death on the cross. We see the great historic change in Christ’s promise to the dying penitent thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise [paradeisos]”

Here Jesus was anticipating His atoning death and His conquering of the grave. His Spirit would not be detained in Hades, but rather conquer Hades, releasing the spirits of the redeemed from their detainment in Abraham’s bosom and ascent into the presence of God.

How could Jesus promise this thief Paradise when every other believer since the fall went direct to Abraham’s bosom upon death?

He was about to secure the necessary victory that would open up the gates of heaven to the redeemed Old Testament saints to enter direct into Paradise. He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realize that.

 

[Doug]

The whole basis of your argument is built upon sand. You force your opinion upon the sacred text. Nowhere in Luke 16:19-31 does it say Abraham's bosom is paradise. Quite the opposite. The reader can see for themselves that this is your own invention. Everything after this extra-biblical claim is therefore erroneous.

What is more, Luke 23:43 nowhere teaches paradise is Abraham's bosom. This is another opinion you force on God's Word.

Let us let Scripture speak for itself. It shows that paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem

In the New Testament, Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem. It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.

In Revelation 21:2 “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, “In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life … Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.

Paradise was lost right up until the cross. It only became accessible through Christ’s death on the cross. We see the great historic change in Christ’s promise to the dying penitent thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise [paradeisos]”

Here Jesus was anticipating His atoning death and His conquering of the grave. His Spirit would not be detained in Hades, but rather conquer Hades, releasing the spirits of the redeemed from their detainment in Abraham’s bosom and ascent into the presence of God.

How could Jesus promise this thief Paradise when every other believer since the fall went direct to Abraham’s bosom upon death?

He was about to secure the necessary victory that would open up the gates of heaven to the redeemed Old Testament saints to enter direct into Paradise. He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realize that.

The whole basis of your argument is built upon sand. You force your opinion upon the sacred text. Nowhere in Luke 16:19-31 does it say Abraham's bosom is paradise. Quite the opposite. The reader can see for themselves that this is your own invention. Everything after this extra-biblical claim is therefore erroneous.

[Luk 16:22-23 KJV] 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Abraham's bosom had 2 compartments one was paradise one was hell

What is more, Luke 23:43 nowhere teaches paradise is Abraham's bosom. This is another opinion you force on God's Word.

what else could it be seeing Jesus was not yet ascended ....see John 20:17 .......Abraham's bosom was where the dead went

In the New Testament, Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem. It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

I do agree Paul uses the term paradise which I assume is heaven but that does not change that paradise would be in Abrahams bosom before that

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.

The new Jersusalem comes down from heaven but is not in heaven.............[Rev 21:2 KJV] 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here Jesus was anticipating His atoning death and His conquering of the grave. His Spirit would not be detained in Hades, but rather conquer Hades, releasing the spirits of the redeemed from their detainment in Abraham’s bosom and ascent into the presence of God.

Does scripture specifically say the redeemed were taken out of hades

 

[WPM]

[Luk 16:22-23 KJV] 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Abraham's bosom had 2 compartments one was paradise one was hell

what else could it be seeing Jesus was not yet ascended ....see John 20:17 .......Abraham's bosom was where the dead went

I do agree Paul uses the term paradise which I assume is heaven but that does not change that paradise would be in Abrahams bosom before that

The new Jersusalem comes down from heaven but is not in heaven.............[Rev 21:2 KJV] 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Does scripture specifically say the redeemed were taken out of hades

You are not getting it are you? You have addressed nothing. You are papering over the evidence before you. Paradise is what i said it was, not what you have been taught.

Can you see the folly of your error? You have zero Scripture. It is all invented imaginations in your head. That sums up Premil. Who needs Scripture with such an ad hoc approach to God's Word?