Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[WPM]

@covenantee

Amillennialism teaches that "the millennium is understood as a spiritual reign of Christ in the hearts of believers, rather than a literal, earthly reign." Premillennialism, on the other hand, acknowledges that Christ reigns in the hearts of believers but also posits that the millennium will involve a physical reign of Christ on Earth. Both perspectives can be true simultaneously; the first concept does not exclude the second.

Where exactly in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus physically reigning on earth?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where exactly in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus physically reigning on earth?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now, before you object, let's think about this from our standpoint.

I understand that Amillennialism interprets the rule of Christ differently than Premillennialism. Amillennialists view the millennium as a spiritual reign of Christ within the hearts of believers, rather than as a literal, earthly reign. In contrast, Premillennialists believe that Christ will return to Earth before the millennium to establish a literal 1,000-year reign of peace and righteousness. I don't see anything in Revelation 20:4 that contradicts the Premillennialist perspective. However, the way Amillennialism describes Christ's spiritual reign in the hearts of believers seems somewhat clumsy. The text contains too many details and a high degree of specificity to serve as a symbolic representation.

 

[covenantee]

Perhaps God is fulfilling his promise today. How can I know?

Why do you say "perhaps"? Don't you believe Him and His Word? The Messianic Jews do.

Who is telling you that you can't know?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you say "perhaps"? Don't you believe Him and His Word? The Messianic Jews do.

Who is telling you that you can't know?

It isn't a matter of belief. I believe both the word of God and the Messianic Jews. The issue is whether their belief in Jesus is a fulfillment of the prophetic word concerning Israel.

 

[covenantee]

It isn't a matter of belief. I believe both the word of God and the Messianic Jews. The issue is whether their belief in Jesus is a fulfillment of the prophetic word concerning Israel.

They recognize the fulfillment of the prophetic Word concerning Israel.

Reference: Jeremiah 31:31–34
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 7:22, 8:6–13, 9:15, 10:14-18, 12:24

 

[CadyandZoe]

They recognize the fulfillment of the prophetic Word concerning Israel.

Reference: Jeremiah 31:31–34
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 7:22, 8:6–13, 9:15, 10:14-18, 12:24

What about Deuteronomy 30:6? I don't this prophecy has been fulfilled yet.

 

[covenantee]

What about Deuteronomy 30:6? I don't this prophecy has been fulfilled yet.

Romans 2:29.

 

[WPM]

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now, before you object, let's think about this from our standpoint.

I understand that Amillennialism interprets the rule of Christ differently than Premillennialism. Amillennialists view the millennium as a spiritual reign of Christ within the hearts of believers, rather than as a literal, earthly reign. In contrast, Premillennialists believe that Christ will return to Earth before the millennium to establish a literal 1,000-year reign of peace and righteousness. I don't see anything in Revelation 20:4 that contradicts the Premillennialist perspective. However, the way Amillennialism describes Christ's spiritual reign in the hearts of believers seems somewhat clumsy. The text contains too many details and a high degree of specificity to serve as a symbolic representation.

There is absolutely no mention of "earth" in what you quoted. It is clearly a heavenly scene. It is describing the souls of the redeemed who have been martyred for their faith. Thrones are always in heaven in Revelation. What is more, and importantly, your position holds zero corroboration anywhere else in God's Word. This is another proof that it is extra-biblical.

Again, where exactly in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus physically reigning on earth?

 

[Timtofly]

Where exactly in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus physically reigning on earth?

Where exactly in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus physically reigning in heaven?

What does it mean to reign with Christ?

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

You claim this verse should read:

"and they lived and reigned in Christ a thousand years."

The topic of the chapter does not change:

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city."

The camp of the saints is still about those who lived and reigned throughout this thousand years. Are those saints with Christ or merely in Christ as you posit?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Romans 2:29.

What about it?

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is absolutely no mention of "earth" in what you quoted. It is clearly a heavenly scene.

I disagree. There is no mention of heaven, and the scene is not heavenly. Contrast the scene depicted in Revelation 4 with the scene depicted in Revelation 20. There is a big difference.

For instance, Revelation 4 mentions flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder, which are absent from Revelation 20. Revelation 4 and 5 mention singing, which is absent from Revelation 20. Revelation 4 mentions one throne; Revelation 20 mentions many thrones. Revelation 5 depicts a concert of angels singing; Revelation 20 does not. The events depicted in Revelations 4 and 5 employ symbolic representation because the heavenly environment is so wonderful that words fail to convey the beauty and glory of that place. Revelation 20 employs no symbolic language.

Consider the opening remarks in Revelation 20, which depicts events that take place on the earth.

Revelation 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

We have no indication that the scene has changed from the earth to heaven in subsequent verses.

It is describing the souls of the redeemed who have been martyred for their faith.

It describes the souls that have been resurrected and come to life.

Thrones are always in heaven in Revelation.

That isn't true.

What is more, and importantly, your position holds zero corroboration anywhere else in God's Word.

You didn't ask me about the rest of the Bible. You asked a specific question about Revelation 20.

Again, where exactly in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus physically reigning on earth?

What in the text rules that out?

 

[WPM]

You didn't ask me about the rest of the Bible. You asked a specific question about Revelation 20.

Scripture supports Scripture. It is called corroboration. This is one of many proofs that sinks Premillennialism.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Scripture supports Scripture. It is called corroboration. This is one of many proofs that sinks Premillennialism.

So far, Premillennialism is still afloat. There is nothing in Revelation 20 that rules out Premillennialism.

Tell me, when was this fulfilled?

Luke 1:72-75 To show mercy toward our fathers, And to remember His holy covenant, The oath which He swore to Abraham our father, To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.​

When was Israel rescued from the hand of her enemies? This promise will be kept during the future Millennial period.

Deuteronomy 30:6-7 Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.​

This promise will be kept during the future Millennial period.

Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.​

In that day the Lord will be king over ALL the earth, not merely over the hearts of believers.

Zechariah 14:16-17 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. ​

This activity will take place during the future Millennial period.

Zechariah 8:22-23 So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord.’ Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”​

​

This activity will take place during the future Millennial period.

I can multiply verses.

 

[covenantee]

What about it?

What do you think?

 

[WPM]

So far, Premillennialism is still afloat. There is nothing in Revelation 20 that rules out Premillennialism.

Tell me, when was this fulfilled?

Luke 1:72-75 To show mercy toward our fathers, And to remember His holy covenant, The oath which He swore to Abraham our father, To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.​

When was Israel rescued from the hand of her enemies? This promise will be kept during the future Millennial period.

Deuteronomy 30:6-7 Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.​

This promise will be kept during the future Millennial period.

Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.​

In that day the Lord will be king over ALL the earth, not merely over the hearts of believers.

Zechariah 14:16-17 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. ​

This activity will take place during the future Millennial period.

Zechariah 8:22-23 So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord.’ Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”​

​

This activity will take place during the future Millennial period.

I can multiply verses.

Stop manipulating Scripture. That happened through Christ and the introduction of the New Covenant.

 

[WPM]

That isn't true.

Thrones are always located within the heavenly domain prior to the new heavens and new earth.

Thrones are mentioned 47 times in Revelation. There are only 3 references to the throne of God being on earth. They all relate to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:5, 22:1, 3) after the millennial is completed. Of the rest: every mention of “throne” or “thrones” in Revelation is in heaven, apart from 3 pertaining to the kingdom of darkness. One refers to Satan’s throne in Revelation 2:13; the other two refer to the beast’s throne in Revelation 13:2; 16:10.

Take particular note of the fact that we are looking at a heavenly scene. We are looking at the souls of God’s people who are currently in heaven after the resurrection of Christ (the first resurrection).

Revelation 20 shows the victory, blessing and authority the dead in Christ enjoyed in heaven after Christ’s victory over death.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What do you think?

I am accustomed to hearing or reading a reasoned case or perspective on a particular issue. What perspective were you attempting to convey?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thrones are always located within the heavenly domain prior to the new heavens and new earth.

Thrones are mentioned 47 times in Revelation. There are only 3 references to the throne of God being on earth. They all relate to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:5, 22:1, 3) after the millennial is completed. Of the rest: every mention of “throne” or “thrones” in Revelation is in heaven, apart from 3 pertaining to the kingdom of darkness. One refers to Satan’s throne in Revelation 2:13; the other two refer to the beast’s throne in Revelation 13:2; 16:10.

Take particular note of the fact that we are looking at a heavenly scene. We are looking at the souls of God’s people who are currently in heaven after the resurrection of Christ (the first resurrection).

Revelation 20 shows the victory, blessing and authority the dead in Christ enjoyed in heaven after Christ’s victory over death.

I see nothing in the text that would lead the reader to conclude that we are looking at a heavenly scene.

 

[covenantee]

I am accustomed to hearing or reading a reasoned case or perspective on a particular issue. What perspective were you attempting to convey?

The perspective in Romans 2:29. Can you not recognize it?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Stop manipulating Scripture. That happened through Christ and the introduction of the New Covenant.

This isn't true. We have no evidence that such things took place.