Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[WPM]

I disagree. Paul contends that the barrier separating different groups has been dismantled. This barrier was a characteristic of the commonwealth of Israel. Therefore, it is clear that Paul was not suggesting that Gentiles become fellow citizens of Israel. If they were to become citizens of Israel, they would be required to follow the laws of Moses. Instead, those who are in Christ become fellow citizens of a different community—the body of Christ.


I agree. But that is not my fight. My argument is with those who claim that the Body of Christ is Israel, which is not true.

The meaning of "people" can vary depending on the context. In the Bible, Jacob and his descendants are referred to as the "people" of God because God chose this family line for a direct relationship with Him. As Paul points out, Christ came from this lineage, and God made specific promises to this family that He did not make to others.

There are no distinctions based on family lines regarding salvation and the body of Christ. However, God chose Jacob and his lineage to fulfill His will to glorify His name.

I agreed with everything up to the bold part. True, believing Israel is not a current reality; it will be a reality in the future.

It is showing us: what we were once alienated from we are now part of. We are now one with true believing israel. That is the believing remnant. That is the preserved of Israel. That is the only Israel that is chosen of God today.

 

[WPM]

The ten horns that you saw are ten more kings, who have not yet come into power, and they will rule with the beast for only a short time.

The ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have not yet risen to power. They will be appointed to their kingdoms for one brief moment to reign with the beast.

The ten horns you saw are ten kings, but they're not yet in power. They will come to power with the Scarlet Beast, but won't last long—a very brief reign

The literal version says this -And the ten horns that thou sawest, are ten kings, who a kingdom did not yet receive, but authority as kings the same hour do receive with the beast,

Ha. If you get hung up on that verse it is purposeful

Did Google tell you that also? It is hard to take anything else you say seriously on eschatology.

 

[WPM]

You got busted six ways from Sunday with your pitiful attempt at a bible case. Don't try to hide under the mommies dress of 'you are not a student'!

You are actually describing yourself. It is called projection!

 

[dad]

Wow! That just about sums up the Premillennial approach.

• They cannot think for themselves.

Believing God's word is better than making stuff up and disbelieving in a way you imagine is thinking for yourself

• They will not take time out to research it for themselves.

You just don't like the results

• They cannot glean truth by letting the Holy Spirit explain the sacred text.

Pretending you would recognize that is a joke

• They will not take the time to dig deep in the Scriptures for themselves.

False. Add that to your false statement list

• They have to be spoon-fed by others.

Sorry, I do not accept regurgitated disbelieving rot

• They have to depend upon other people, who are twisting Scripture to make Premillennialism fit.

I prefer to look to His word

Now, sadly, you are left holding the baby, and nothing to say for it.

If it is anything like the way you imagine the 1000 year reign of Christ, it won't weigh much

No wonder it feels like you are engaging with an indoctrinated clone who cannot think for themselves when you debate the subject online with the Premillennialist.

Pretending your borg speak disbelief and gibberish and false accusations were debate is wrong

 

[dad]

Did Google tell you that also? It is hard to take anything else you say seriously on eschatology.

No that was various translations of the verse. Your misuse is not the only kid on the block

 

[WPM]

I disagree. Paul contends that the barrier separating different groups has been dismantled. This barrier was a characteristic of the commonwealth of Israel. Therefore, it is clear that Paul was not suggesting that Gentiles become fellow citizens of Israel. If they were to become citizens of Israel, they would be required to follow the laws of Moses. Instead, those who are in Christ become fellow citizens of a different community—the body of Christ.


I agree. But that is not my fight. My argument is with those who claim that the Body of Christ is Israel, which is not true.

The meaning of "people" can vary depending on the context. In the Bible, Jacob and his descendants are referred to as the "people" of God because God chose this family line for a direct relationship with Him. As Paul points out, Christ came from this lineage, and God made specific promises to this family that He did not make to others.

There are no distinctions based on family lines regarding salvation and the body of Christ. However, God chose Jacob and his lineage to fulfill His will to glorify His name.

I agreed with everything up to the bold part. True, believing Israel is not a current reality; it will be a reality in the future.

Multiple Old Testament passages had predicted the ingathering of countless Gentiles into the covenant family. There was no sense of division or inferiority in those predictions. Quite the opposite! Jews and Gentiles would equally experience full salvation through the vicarious work of Christ in His faithful earthly assignment on man’s behalf. They would both take on the same spiritual status.

The apostle wraps up his teaching in Romans 11:17-24 with an analogy of a good olive tree, saying: “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (Gentiles), wert graffed in among them (natural Israel), and with them (natural Israel), partakest of the root (Jesus) and fatness (or oiliness) of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches (Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root (Jesus), but the root (Jesus) thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches (natural Israel) were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they (natural Israel) were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches (natural Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (natural Israel), be graffed into their own olive tree?”

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle east or was it faithful remnant Israel?

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree. Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” This is an Israeli tree that holds Israeli citizens. But it was not merely a natural Israeli tree but a spiritual Israeli tree. It was a believing company. After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. We are clearly looking at a spiritual tree that accommodates both the believing Jew and the believing Gentile from both Old and New Testament. It embodies all those who belong to the “household of faith” throughout time.

The natural branches were broken off because of “unbelief.” Only believing Israelites survived on that tree. This is God’s faithful remnant. Gentiles have been enjoined to true Israel now “by faith.” This believing tree embodies God’s chosen people, irrespective of race. They are true Israelites. These are actually of the citizenship of Israel.

Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is showing us: what we were once alienated from we are not part of. We are now one with true believing israel. That is the believing remnant. That is the preserved of Israel. That is the only Israel that is chosen of God today.

I understand that some people interpret the passage in that way. However, as Bible students, we need to pay close attention to how Paul develops his arguments. He mentions that the middle wall of partition has been broken down, even though it actually hasn't. From this, we can infer that he is speaking metaphorically about the barriers that Gentiles faced in worshiping God.

Through Christ, there are no barriers to worship. That's his point. He doesn't intend to suggest that the body of Christ is now Israel.

 

[WPM]

I understand that some people interpret the passage in that way. However, as Bible students, we need to pay close attention to how Paul develops his arguments. He mentions that the middle wall of partition has been broken down, even though it actually hasn't. From this, we can infer that he is speaking metaphorically about the barriers that Gentiles faced in worshiping God.

Through Christ, there are no barriers to worship. That's his point. He doesn't intend to suggest that the body of Christ is now Israel.

Paul teaches that we are not just united to Christ today, we have also become real active recipients and benefactors of His ancient promises and covenants, and, contrary to what many Premillennialists would have us think, we are spiritually joined to His ancient believing people through faith, and are now fellow-citizens of true remnant Israel, and fellow participants in God's great covenant arrangement with His elect.

We are no longer alienated from God. We are no longer outside of his covenant blessing. We are no longer separated from His people. We are "one body" with them "in Christ." We are "one new man."

This is all said to have resulted from the cross of Christ.

 

[covenantee]

I agree. However, there were only two ways that a Gentile could enter into the people of God: 1) marriage (as in the case of Ruth or 2) conversion to Judaism. Neither of these is a prerequisite to enter the body of Christ. Therefore, the body of Christ is not Israel.

The only way anyone, Jew or Gentile, could enter the remnant was to enter into faithful obedient relationship with God under His Covenant. The same has been true ever since. Today, those who do are described as the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), which is His Church. His Church includes His remnant.

We don't choose him; he chooses us.

Joshua 24
15 ...choose you this day whom ye will serve...

The part I underlined specifies why God chose an entire family line.

The part you underlined specifies why God chose His Church, which includes His remnant, both of which include saved Jews and Gentiles.

This will take place in the future.

It has taken place ever since the manifestation of the remnant.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Multiple Old Testament passages had predicted the ingathering of countless Gentiles into the covenant family. There was no sense of division or inferiority in those predictions. Quite the opposite! Jews and Gentiles would equally experience full salvation through the vicarious work of Christ in His faithful earthly assignment on man’s behalf. They would both take on the same spiritual status.

I agree with you here, but I disagree with the idea that the body of Christ is now Israel.

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle east or was it faithful remnant Israel?

We understand Paul's final point based on what he has already said about Israel in Romans 9 - 11. He does not discuss the unification of Jews and Gentiles in those chapters. He is attempting to explain why God's promise to his kinsmen hasn't failed because, for the most part, many of them are not coming to believe.

The framework of Paul's arguments, starting in chapter 6, consists of a series of rhetorical questions. Therefore, to understand the Olive Tree metaphor, a Bible student must recognize that it aims to address the question: "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?" If our interpretation of the Olive Tree metaphor does not provide an answer to that question, we can conclude that our interpretation is incorrect.

How does the Olive Tree metaphor speak to a possible fall of Israel? He continues,

Romans 11:15-16 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.​

The Apostle uses an analogy to compare the nation of Israel to a piece of dough. This analogy relies on understanding leavening, which is a quick and transformative process that rapidly affects the entire lump of dough. Therefore, if a piece of dough is free of leavening, then one can conclude that the rest of the lump is also free of it. Similarly, if the first piece is considered holy, it follows that the entire lump is also holy. The part stands in for the whole.

He notes that presently, there remains only a remnant of Israel that is coming to faith. So he asks whether a remnant of believing Jews is enough. He argues that even though a partial hardening is taking place and only a remnant are being saved, since the partial is holy so is the entire nation. The part stands in for the whole.

The same analogy holds true for a holy tree. If the root of the tree is holy, so are the branches, and since Jacob is holy so are his children.

It is important to understand that the branches in this context do not symbolize individual people, but rather represent generations of people. The notion that an individual Jew would be severed from the tree to make way for an individual Gentile to be grafted onto the root is inconsistent with the principles of righteousness. Such an implication would contradict the nature of God, who is fundamentally just and would not engage in such actions.

The key to our understanding is Paul's reference to making some of his countrymen jealous. This idea comes from the book of Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 32:21 ‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation . . ."​

The branches represent generations of Israel as Moses describes here:

Deuteronomy 29:14-15 Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath, but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the Lord our God and with those who are not with us here today. ​

God made a generational covenant with Israel. The covenant comes with blessing and cursing. The generation that keeps God's commandments will experience blessing, and the generation that worships idols and other gods will suffer cursing. Some generations were cut off from the root, while other generations remained.

The same is true of Gentiles. After Jesus, some generations of Gentiles were grafted onto the root. Someday, according to Paul, the Gentiles will be cut off. This will take place in the future.

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree. Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” This is an Israeli tree that holds Israeli citizens.

While Paul says that the root naturally belongs to Israel, he doesn't suggest that the root IS Israel.

But it was not merely a natural Israeli tree but a spiritual Israeli tree. It was a believing company. After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. We are clearly looking at a spiritual tree that accommodates both the believing Jew and the believing Gentile from both Old and New Testament. It embodies all those who belong to the “household of faith” throughout time.

The Olive Tree Metaphor speaks to holiness not spirituality. The dough metaphor indicates that the entire nation of Israel is holy, even though a small remnant is spiritual. Thus Paul warns Gentile believers against bragging against the branches that were broken off.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The only way anyone, Jew or Gentile, could enter the remnant was to enter into faithful obedient relationship with God under His Covenant.

That is not true. Neither faithfulness nor obedience was a requirement for entrance into the people of God.

What makes a group of Israelites a remnant? They become a remnant when the rest of their family line suffers murder, death, and God's judgment. Those that survive are known as the remnant.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul teaches that we are not just united to Christ today, we have also become real active recipients and benefactors of His ancient promises and covenants, and, contrary to what many Premillennialists would have us think, we are spiritually joined to His ancient believing people through faith, and are now fellow-citizens of true remnant Israel, and fellow participants in God's great covenant arrangement with His elect.

I disagree with this entirely and it remains a good summary of the locus of our disagreement. It isn't true that Gentile believers participate in OT promises and covenants except for one: God's promise to Abram that "In you, all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." This is the basis of Paul's argument in Galatians.

We are no longer alienated from God. We are no longer outside of his covenant blessing.

I agree. We are not outside of God's promise to Abraham as specified in Genesis 12:3

We are no longer separated from His people. We are "one body" with them "in Christ." We are "one new man."

This is all said to have resulted from the cross of Christ.

I agree. But it does not follow, therefore, that all the OT promises belong to us. They don't.

 

[WPM]

I agree with you here, but I disagree with the idea that the body of Christ is now Israel.

We understand Paul's final point based on what he has already said about Israel in Romans 9 - 11. He does not discuss the unification of Jews and Gentiles in those chapters. He is attempting to explain why God's promise to his kinsmen hasn't failed because, for the most part, many of them are not coming to believe.

The framework of Paul's arguments, starting in chapter 6, consists of a series of rhetorical questions. Therefore, to understand the Olive Tree metaphor, a Bible student must recognize that it aims to address the question: "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?" If our interpretation of the Olive Tree metaphor does not provide an answer to that question, we can conclude that our interpretation is incorrect.

How does the Olive Tree metaphor speak to a possible fall of Israel? He continues,

Romans 11:15-16 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.​

The Apostle uses an analogy to compare the nation of Israel to a piece of dough. This analogy relies on understanding leavening, which is a quick and transformative process that rapidly affects the entire lump of dough. Therefore, if a piece of dough is free of leavening, then one can conclude that the rest of the lump is also free of it. Similarly, if the first piece is considered holy, it follows that the entire lump is also holy. The part stands in for the whole.

He notes that presently, there remains only a remnant of Israel that is coming to faith. So he asks whether a remnant of believing Jews is enough. He argues that even though a partial hardening is taking place and only a remnant are being saved, since the partial is holy so is the entire nation. The part stands in for the whole.

The same analogy holds true for a holy tree. If the root of the tree is holy, so are the branches, and since Jacob is holy so are his children.

It is important to understand that the branches in this context do not symbolize individual people, but rather represent generations of people. The notion that an individual Jew would be severed from the tree to make way for an individual Gentile to be grafted onto the root is inconsistent with the principles of righteousness. Such an implication would contradict the nature of God, who is fundamentally just and would not engage in such actions.

The key to our understanding is Paul's reference to making some of his countrymen jealous. This idea comes from the book of Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 32:21 ‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation . . ."​

The branches represent generations of Israel as Moses describes here:

Deuteronomy 29:14-15 Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath, but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the Lord our God and with those who are not with us here today. ​

God made a generational covenant with Israel. The covenant comes with blessing and cursing. The generation that keeps God's commandments will experience blessing, and the generation that worships idols and other gods will suffer cursing. Some generations were cut off from the root, while other generations remained.

The same is true of Gentiles. After Jesus, some generations of Gentiles were grafted onto the root. Someday, according to Paul, the Gentiles will be cut off. This will take place in the future.


While Paul says that the root naturally belongs to Israel, he doesn't suggest that the root IS Israel.



The Olive Tree Metaphor speaks to holiness not spirituality. The dough metaphor indicates that the entire nation of Israel is holy, even though a small remnant is spiritual. Thus Paul warns Gentile believers against bragging against the branches that were broken off.

You need to take your Premillennial glasses off and let the Holy Spirit interpret this the way that it means.

Talk about twisting Scripture to support your error. You do the same as this with your rejection of the deity of Christ. You seem incapable of letting the Bible speak for itself. You have to force your beliefs upon the sacred text on every subject. Shame on you!

Where does Paul ever remotely argue that "since the partial is holy so is the entire nation. The part stands in for the whole"? Where do you get this from? It is all imaginations in your head.

I never heard greater nonsense in my life! That sums up the partisan way you approach Scripture. You cannot divorce yourself from what you have been indoctrinated with.

Christ-rejecting Israel is of their father the devil. They are off the synagogue of Satan. That is what the Bible teaches. They are enemies of god. Like all on regenerate people, they are under the wrath of God. How dare you deem them as holy. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is misrepresenting everything that Paul is teaching here.

Paul is simply telling us that God is able to save them if they repent.

 

[WPM]

That is not true. Neither faithfulness nor obedience was a requirement for entrance into the people of God.

What makes a group of Israelites a remnant? They become a remnant when the rest of their family line suffers murder, death, and God's judgment. Those that survive are known as the remnant.

You really do not get it do you? All truth is by revelation! It is the Holy Spirit that enlightens. Those that have got eyes to see and ears to hear will ultimately get it.

The remnant refers to the faithful amongst the wider professing ethnic nation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Wow! That just about sums up the Premillennial approach.

• They cannot think for themselves.
• They will not take time out to research it for themselves.
• They cannot glean truth by letting the Holy Spirit explain the sacred text.
• They will not take the time to dig deep in the Scriptures for themselves.
• They have to be spoon-fed by others.
• They have to depend upon other people, who are twisting Scripture to make Premillennialism fit.

Now, sadly, you are left holding the baby, and nothing to say for it.

No wonder it feels like you are engaging with an indoctrinated clone who cannot think for themselves when you debate the subject online with the Premillennialist.

If it was fir the lurker, it would be pointless!

Exactly. I am not going to cast the pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you, Matthew 7:6.

 

[covenantee]

That is not true. Neither faithfulness nor obedience was a requirement for entrance into the people of God.

What makes a group of Israelites a remnant? They become a remnant when the rest of their family line suffers murder, death, and God's judgment. Those that survive are known as the remnant.

Where did you get that?

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith...

That's what makes the remnant.

Nothing else.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where does Paul ever remotely argue that "since the partial is holy so is the entire nation.

He argues that point in Romans 11.

The part stands in for the whole"?

Yes. That is the dough analogy. If the piece of dough is holy then so is the entire lump. The part stands in for the whole. If the root of a tree is holy then so are the branches. The part stands in for the whole.

Christ-rejecting Israel is of their father the devil.

Even so, they remain holy. Have you never read,

Romans 11:28-29 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. ​

God loves them, even though they are enemies of the gospel, because of the fathers.

How dare you deem them as holy.

Contrary to popular belief, "holy" doesn't mean "good" or "righteous." It means "set aside to serve the purposes of God to play a significant role in his glorification."

 

[CadyandZoe]

You really do not get it do you? All truth is by revelation! It is the Holy Spirit that enlightens. Those that have got eyes to see and ears to hear will ultimately get it.

The remnant refers to the faithful amongst the wider professing ethnic nation.

Finally you get it. Even so, it doesn't contradict what I said about the future.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Exactly. I am not going to cast the pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you, Matthew 7:6.

You own the pearls? They came from you? Careful now. :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where did you get that?

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith...

That's what makes the remnant.

Nothing else.

We gain an understanding of a passage from the immediate context.

Romans 11:2-5​

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.​

What is Elijah's concern, and what complaint does he raise against Israel? He accuses Israel of killing everyone who feared God and remained faithful. From his perspective, Elijah believes he is the only faithful believer in the nation. However, God reveals that He has preserved a remnant of 7,000 men who have not bowed their knee to Baal. This means that Elijah is not alone; he is not the last believer among his people.

Paul argues that, similarly, there is a remnant of faithful believers among his kinsmen. He explains that the reason this remnant exists is because of God's choice. God decides who will remain faithful and who will not.

By God's grace, He keeps them safe from those who wish to harm them. Both Paul and Jesus have warned us about the dangers that believers face during times of persecution and opposition. Sometimes, according to God's grace, He delivers some from harm.

Contrary to your position that God is no longer dealing with natural Israel, Paul argues to the contrary. Natural Israel will continue to serve God's purpose.