Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[covenantee]

Nothing is said of the Gentiles in those verses.

Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from its beginning and throughout its history. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.

God chose the family of Jacob to be his people.

God chose and chooses the faithful obedient remnant to be His people. Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4-5

If he wants to focus on a particular family line to serve his purpose of glorifying his name, then he will, and he did.

His name is glorified by His faithful obedient remnant.

I understand both sides of the argument. Mine is correct, yours is incorrect.

Yours is wrong because it excludes faith and obedience, and substitutes DNA, as the qualifying criteria identifying God's Chosen People.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But, we are grafted into a believing Israeli olive tree.

If you review the passage again, I think you will find that we are grafted onto "the holy root." What is the "holy root" if not Abraham?

We have taken on the citizenship of true Israel.

Paul argued against that idea, saying that we are not required to keep Moses in order to be saved.

We are now the children of Abraham by faith.

Exactly.

He is not a Jew who is one outwardly.

A Gentile is not a Jew of any sort.

Circumcision is that of the heart.

This is true of all those whom God has chosen.

The point is, Paul argued in favor of God's faithfulness to his kinsmen, the descendants of Jacob.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from its beginning and throughout its history.

I agree. However, there were only two ways that a Gentile could enter into the people of God: 1) marriage (as in the case of Ruth or 2) conversion to Judaism. Neither of these is a prerequisite to enter the body of Christ. Therefore, the body of Christ is not Israel.

God chose and chooses the faithful obedient remnant to be His people. Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4-5

First, the order of salvation has God at the beginning. We don't choose him; he chooses us.
Second, God has more than one reason for choosing people. You mentioned being chosen for salvation. That is one reason God chooses people. I reminded you of Deuteronomy 4, where God chose an entire family line. Why did God choose an entire family line?

1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen race, (family if you like) a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The part I underlined specifies why God chose an entire family line.

His name is glorified by His faithful obedient remnant.

This will take place in the future.

 

[WPM]

If you review the passage again, I think you will find that we are grafted onto "the holy root." What is the "holy root" if not Abraham?

Paul argued against that idea, saying that we are not required to keep Moses in order to be saved.

Exactly.

A Gentile is not a Jew of any sort.


This is true of all those whom God has chosen.

The point is, Paul argued in favor of God's faithfulness to his kinsmen, the descendants of Jacob.

Ephesians 2:10-19 declares, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens (sumpolites) with the saints, and of the household of God. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

We are citizens of true believing Israel today. The wall of separation has been broken.

The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the oneness of God’s people. Those who disagree have to fight with numerous explicit Scripture. This is not a good place to be.

If there is only one Gospel, pointing to one Savior, that produces one salvation, would it not make sense that there is one people of God? The Bible only recognizes one elect spiritual people throughout time who belong to Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Old Testament and also equally the God of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John in the New Testament. The Old and New Testament saints are joined together through Israel’s Messiah and Redeemer Jesus Christ. In Him, and through faith, they become Abraham's spiritual seed, citizens of true believing Israel, and heirs according to the promise.

Natural Israelites and natural Gentiles enter into an eternal covenant relationship with Yahweh God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This text tells us that Christ did “reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross” (2:16). It presents “the blood of Christ” (2:13) as the divine work that brings ancient enemies together spiritually as one. The Savior is the crucial factor in unifying God’s people throughout all time. The Old Testament saints looked forward by faith to the promised Redeemer, whereas the New Testament Church now looks back. The unity and continuity are undoubted.

There are many unique metaphors used in the New Testament that you cannot find in the Old Testament. That does not negate the fact that God's people throughout time are one. They are a unitary whole. You cannot divide them in two. You cannot decapitate them.Let us be clear, we are dealing with the greater and fuller revelation in the New Testament. It puts meat on the bones to the old covenant disclosure. What is vague or absurd in the Old Testament is fully revealed in the New Testament. This is something that many Dispensationalists do not seem to see.

 

[dad]

Because you have carnal mind by considering everything in the Book of Revelation as literal. Yeah, right back to you.

I see, so if we have a proper mind, 1000 years that started over 2000 years ago makes sense. Got it. Maybe tell us how long the 1000 years 'really' is? Ha

I take math from God as He defines it, if you receive it.

Invisible ink?

The Greek word for thousand is [chilioi] which is in the plural and can mean an uncertain length of time or number.

It can in Greek. In the bible, it means a certain number or years. A time period that begins and ends. Lots happen in that time period and it starts when Jesus returns and ends with the earth and heavens being remade. You thought no one would notice that?

It is to illustrate an unspecified length of time.

Well specified actually

For God is NOT interested in notifying you or the world of the precise actual length of time which Satan is bound (since we know the start of his binding was at the cross).

Except He did notify us in detail. The trick is believing it

It is to be mystery to the unfaithful that he is even loosed.

No. It is spelled out when exactly.

That is why they will be eating, drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, because they are unaware that Satan is losoed because they thought Satan won't be bound until sometimes later after the rapture of the church, or the Second Coming.

That is before Jesus returns not after the 1000 years.

Sorry no, the number 10, 100, and 1,000 years is used in Scripture as spiritual sense to signifies the FULLNESS OF WHATEVER IS BEING SPOKEN ABOUT! You need to read in Pslams where the Lord God uses it to signify the fullness of hills:

Psa 50:10-11
(10) For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
(11) I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.

Did the Lord talk about a literal number of hills hold his cattle that are His? Does that mean that the cattle on the 1,001st hill, or the cattle upon 1,002nd hill are not His? NO! So quite obviously the number thousand here is not a number to be understood literally! It is a number that God used here to ILLUSTRATE the fullness of hills are his! That is why you need to read verse 11 carefully that "every" beast of the forest is His. It means ALL the cattle are His! Likewise when we read about thousand generations:

Psa 105:8
(8) He hath remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
(9) Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

Context. In this case it is not trying to achieve a specific number. But if someone counted the hills visible from Jerusalem and it happened to be 1000 that would not surprise me:)

Consider wisely, the LORD hath remember His covenant, for how long? FOREVER! That is what He commanded to a "thousand generations!" So is it literal? Is His Word talking bout literal 1,000 generations of about 40 years or 70 years each? Not 1,001th, or 1,002nd generation when you think the LORD will end his covenant? PERISH THE THOUGHT!
So, back to Revelation 20. The thousand years can be:

Forever includes a thousand generations.

1.) FOREVER
2.) or a fullness of time of whatever is in view depending on context.

For example:
Rev 20:4
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Will the Saints rule with Christ ENDS after only 1,000 literal years? Or are we supposed to reign with Christ FOREVER.

We rule during. With Him

Rev 22:5
(5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Yes we shall, including the millennium

Now what about the thousand years for Satan?

Rev 20:3
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Will Satan be in a bottomless pit FOREVER?

Not if he is let free after 1000 years for a bit. His destination is the lake of fire.

So I am saying not all thousand years in Revelation 20 are speaking about the same period and must be understood spiritually discerned if God give you the wisdom, otherwise, go ahead and enjoy your life eating, drinking, marrying or giving in marriage and expect the rapture when you think the literal battle of Gog and Magog war in the Middle East about to take place or the signing of a peace treaty between some peace-maker from Europe and war-weary Israel. People like you with carnal minds will be surprised and disappointed. Guaranteed!

In other words you disbelieve it

 

[dad]

Yes, 1 hour is a short time, just like a thousand years is a long time. That is what is called consistent hermeneutics.

No. The thousand years is what it says. The short time Satan rules is 3 1/2 years. That was called a little while in the translation I cited. We also could refer to it generally as the 'hour' if we wanted.

 

[dad]

Where is all this in Revelation 20, your only proof-text?

The various descriptions of the millennium are all over.

example What Does the Bible Say About The Millennium?

 

[WPM]

I see, so if we have a proper mind, 1000 years that started over 2000 years ago makes sense. Got it. Maybe tell us how long the 1000 years 'really' is? Ha

Invisible ink?

It can in Greek. In the bible, it means a certain number or years. A time period that begins and ends. Lots happen in that time period and it starts when Jesus returns and ends with the earth and heavens being remade. You thought no one would notice that?

Well specified actually

Except He did notify us in detail. The trick is believing it

No. It is spelled out when exactly.

That is before Jesus returns not after the 1000 years.

Context. In this case it is not trying to achieve a specific number. But if someone counted the hills visible from Jerusalem and it happened to be 1000 that would not surprise me:)

Forever includes a thousand generations.

We rule during. With Him

Yes we shall, including the millennium

Not if he is let free after 1000 years for a bit. His destination is the lake of fire.

In other words you disbelieve it

How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

 

[WPM]

The various descriptions of the millennium are all over.

example What Does the Bible Say About The Millennium?

Yea, right!

You seem to make it up as you go. You steal these descrptions from "last days" passages and "new heavens and a new earth" passages, and then invent another unrelated age (unknown to Scripture) in between "this age" ("the last days") and "the age to come" ("the new heavens and a new earth"). How convient!

None of these references mention your thousand years, or (significantly) teach what Revelation 20 does That is because it is a figurative time-span that relates to the hear and now.

This is an awful mode of hermeneutics to foist detail on Revelation 20 that is not there. We are looking at a total fabrication that will never happen.

 

[WPM]

No. The thousand years is what it says. The short time Satan rules is 3 1/2 years. That was called a little while in the translation I cited. We also could refer to it generally as the 'hour' if we wanted.

Hermeneutics double standards!

You are happy to spiritualize "one hour" as a short period of time but are adamantly against spiritualizing "a thousand years" as a long period of time. Hmmmm!

 

[WPM]

If you review the passage again, I think you will find that we are grafted onto "the holy root." What is the "holy root" if not Abraham?

Paul argued against that idea, saying that we are not required to keep Moses in order to be saved.

Exactly.

A Gentile is not a Jew of any sort.


This is true of all those whom God has chosen.

The point is, Paul argued in favor of God's faithfulness to his kinsmen, the descendants of Jacob.

The whole import of Paul’s teaching in Romans 2:17-29 revolves around defining what a real Jew is under the new covenant and what a true heathen is. Paul continues in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit [Gr. pneuma].”

Paul basically spiritualizes the terms circumcision and Jew to mean believer, and uncircumcision or Gentile to mean unbeliever. He teaches, if a man accepts Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual Jew (or true circumcision); if a man rejects Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual heathen (or true uncircumcision). Essentially, he is showing: Gentiles can become true Jews through faith in Jesus, and Jews can forfeit their right to be considered true Jews if they reject Jesus.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I see, so if we have a proper mind, 1000 years that started over 2000 years ago makes sense. Got it. Maybe tell us how long the 1000 years 'really' is? Ha

Invisible ink?

It can in Greek. In the bible, it means a certain number or years. A time period that begins and ends. Lots happen in that time period and it starts when Jesus returns and ends with the earth and heavens being remade. You thought no one would notice that?

Well specified actually

Except He did notify us in detail. The trick is believing it

No. It is spelled out when exactly.

That is before Jesus returns not after the 1000 years.

Context. In this case it is not trying to achieve a specific number. But if someone counted the hills visible from Jerusalem and it happened to be 1000 that would not surprise me:)

Forever includes a thousand generations.

We rule during. With Him

Yes we shall, including the millennium

Not if he is let free after 1000 years for a bit. His destination is the lake of fire.

In other words you disbelieve it

Obviously not a Bible student. Ignored!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ephesians 2:10-19 declares, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens (sumpolites) with the saints, and of the household of God. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

We are citizens of true believing Israel today. The wall of separation has been broken.

I disagree. Paul contends that the barrier separating different groups has been dismantled. This barrier was a characteristic of the commonwealth of Israel. Therefore, it is clear that Paul was not suggesting that Gentiles become fellow citizens of Israel. If they were to become citizens of Israel, they would be required to follow the laws of Moses. Instead, those who are in Christ become fellow citizens of a different community—the body of Christ.

The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the oneness of God’s people.

I agree. But that is not my fight. My argument is with those who claim that the Body of Christ is Israel, which is not true.

If there is only one Gospel, pointing to one Savior, that produces one salvation, would it not make sense that there is one people of God?

The meaning of "people" can vary depending on the context. In the Bible, Jacob and his descendants are referred to as the "people" of God because God chose this family line for a direct relationship with Him. As Paul points out, Christ came from this lineage, and God made specific promises to this family that He did not make to others.

There are no distinctions based on family lines regarding salvation and the body of Christ. However, God chose Jacob and his lineage to fulfill His will to glorify His name.

The Bible only recognizes one elect spiritual people throughout time who belong to Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Old Testament and also equally the God of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John in the New Testament. The Old and New Testament saints are joined together through Israel’s Messiah and Redeemer Jesus Christ. In Him, and through faith, they become Abraham's spiritual seed, citizens of true believing Israel, and heirs according to the promise.

I agreed with everything up to the bold part. True, believing Israel is not a current reality; it will be a reality in the future.

 

[dad]

How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

The short time is 3 1/2 years. At the end of that Jesus returns. At the end of the 1000 years, the new earth and heavens. trying to force a translation of 'hour' on the once mentioned short time as some excuse to disbelieve the well documented 1000 years is a joke

 

[dad]

Yea, right!

You seem to make it up as you go. You steal these descrptions from "last days" passages and "new heavens and a new earth" passages, and then invent another unrelated age (unknown to Scripture) in between "this age" ("the last days") and "the age to come" ("the new heavens and a new earth"). How convient!

None of these references mention your thousand years, or (significantly) teach what Revelation 20 does That is because it is a figurative time-span that relates to the hear and now.

This is an awful mode of hermeneutics to foist detail on Revelation 20 that is not there. We are looking at a total fabrication that will never happen.

I didn't steal anything, I googled some verses pertaining to the millennium

Maybe you like this one better? 99 Bible Verses about the Millennium (KJV) | StillFaith.com

 

[dad]

Hermeneutics double standards!

Context. Heraneutics should not be an excuse to wave away passages and themes of the bible

You are happy to spiritualize "one hour"

No, it is translated other ways in other translations. You may not latch onto one translation and one verse to try and wave away dozens of clear verses about a major topic of the bible.

as a short period of time but are adamantly against spiritualizing "a thousand years" as a long period of time. Hmmmm!

The short period is given in months and days so there is no confusion how long that is any more than there is about how long a thousand years is.

 

[dad]

Obviously not a Bible student. Ignored!

You got busted six ways from Sunday with your pitiful attempt at a bible case. Don't try to hide under the mommies dress of 'you are not a student'!

 

[WPM]

The short time is 3 1/2 years. At the end of that Jesus returns. At the end of the 1000 years, the new earth and heavens. trying to force a translation of 'hour' on the once mentioned short time as some excuse to disbelieve the well documented 1000 years is a joke

Oh, right! 1 hour = 3 1/2 years. What else is figurative?

 

[WPM]

I didn't steal anything, I googled some verses pertaining to the millennium

Maybe you like this one better? 99 Bible Verses about the Millennium (KJV) | StillFaith.com

Wow! That just about sums up the Premillennial approach.

• They cannot think for themselves.
• They will not take time out to research it for themselves.
• They cannot glean truth by letting the Holy Spirit explain the sacred text.
• They will not take the time to dig deep in the Scriptures for themselves.
• They have to be spoon-fed by others.
• They have to depend upon other people, who are twisting Scripture to make Premillennialism fit.

Now, sadly, you are left holding the baby, and nothing to say for it.

No wonder it feels like you are engaging with an indoctrinated clone who cannot think for themselves when you debate the subject online with the Premillennialist.

If it was fir the lurker, it would be pointless!

 

[dad]

Oh, right! 1 hour = 3 1/2 years. What else is figurative?

The ten horns that you saw are ten more kings, who have not yet come into power, and they will rule with the beast for only a short time.

The ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have not yet risen to power. They will be appointed to their kingdoms for one brief moment to reign with the beast.

The ten horns you saw are ten kings, but they're not yet in power. They will come to power with the Scarlet Beast, but won't last long—a very brief reign

The literal version says this -And the ten horns that thou sawest, are ten kings, who a kingdom did not yet receive, but authority as kings the same hour do receive with the beast,

Ha. If you get hung up on that verse it is purposeful