Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

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Ritajanice

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When we become Born Of The Spirit, we have passed over from spiritual death to spiritual life, in Christ.

Short commentary .

What does the Bible say about spiritual resurrection?
Paul says, God saved you by His grace when you believed (v 8). It is by faith in Jesus we are revived or resurrected from spiritual death and given new life (Ephesians 2:1;4-6; 8). You may not see an instant change in you physically, but to God you are reborn.
 

Ritajanice

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@rwb would you say that being brought from spiritual death to spiritual life in Jesus

That our spirit has been resurrected ..by Gods almighty supernatural power?
Which is a Huge mystery on how he does it?
I ask you, as im only understanding your posts,WPM.

Our spirit is Born Again/ ressurected.
 

Scott Downey

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Resurrection for Christians is like the resurrection of Christ.
Christ died physically, Christ was made alive by the Spirit, as in spiritually alive
Christ as His body lay in the grave preached to them who had died, imprisoned spirits in hell.
Put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit of God and by that life given to Him from God also went and preached to imprisoned spirits in hell.

We are not unconscious after our physical death, we are spiritually alive.


18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Rev 1
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying [i]to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of [j]Hades and of Death.
 

WPM

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Yes, that is what they teach. They will say that the first resurrection IS physical because Jesus was physically resurrected. However, It escapes their notice that John says other people "came to life" before the beginning of the thousand years. They deny that John is speaking about a physical resurrection here.
Who does John say came to life before the thousand years? Please quote Scripture.
 
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Scott Downey

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When we become Born Of The Spirit, we have passed over from spiritual death to spiritual life, in Christ.

Short commentary .

What does the Bible say about spiritual resurrection?
Paul says, God saved you by His grace when you believed (v 8). It is by faith in Jesus we are revived or resurrected from spiritual death and given new life (Ephesians 2:1;4-6; 8). You may not see an instant change in you physically, but to God you are reborn.
Yes, but that is not the resurrection.
Some in Paul's day falsely taught the resurrection was passed
The resurrection is still future.

2 Timothy 2:17-19

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of [a]Christ depart from iniquity.”
 

WPM

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Spamming a bunch of verses with no church mentioned and inserting the word church willy nilly is actually not refuting anything. As for the Rapture, the thread here is about your supposed proof that a pre wrath Rapture 'contradicts scripture'. It is you that have well and truly failed here so far. As for the Rapture itself, I have no need to 'support' it here! It is a slam dunk.

What about it? Jesus said He founded it. When He sent His spirit it really got rolling.

? Many sheep, Jesus said He had other than the folks there at the time. No idea about what your 'just to the Jews' is supposed to mean.

Great, so?

So? Strawman argument, I never even mentioned that

Nonsense. Go and preach the gospel to all the world Jesus said

More flogging a dead strawman horse




Acts 7:38
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us. ESV

The word assembly is defined as a group of any gathering or the assembly of Israel or an assembly of people or a gathering of citizens...etc In the Christian sense it means an assembly of Christians gathered or a company of Christians or those anywhere that constitute a body, or the whole body of Christians scattered through the earth, or a dead assembly of Christians gathered in heaven.
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In the case of the Jews in the desert that was long before Christians. So calling that pre Christian assembly a 'church' (but not the only or best translation) is fine as long as we realize it is not the church.





The old testament pre Christian saints ALSO were called out from the world of course.

Not my problem. Called out ones is a pretty simple and clear concept. All believers are called out! Pre Christian as well

Nothing like that. It shows believers congregated before Jesus came!


John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Yes, we are saved. So were the old testament believers. So will the tribulation and millennial saints be saved! Nothing to do with the doctrine you are flogging. You are all over the map and out in left field and don't really address the timing of the Rapture at all. Apparently you are too busy trying to pass of strawman theories to focus.
I refer you back to my last post which refutes your comments here. You're clearly fighting with Scripture.
 

WPM

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Yes, but that is not the resurrection.
Some in Paul's day falsely taught the resurrection was passed
The resurrection is still future.

2 Timothy 2:17-19

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of [a]Christ depart from iniquity.”
I don't think she is disagreeing with you.
 

Ritajanice

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@Scott Downey said.

Yes, but that is not the resurrection.
Some in Paul's day falsely taught the resurrection was passed
The resurrection is still future.


RJ. Says..When we become Born Again we are spiritually Alive/our spirit is resurrected brought from spiritual death to spiritual life.

When we die, we await our glorified bodies, who will be like Christ’s glorified body.
 

Scott Downey

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I don't think she is disagreeing with you.
Resurrection in scripture is very specific, it is not being born again or made spiritually alive.
Resurrection has to do with us receiving new glorified bodies, like Christ has now.

Never mix the word resurrection, being resurrected, and born again, born of God, this is not right thinking.
 

Scott Downey

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Philippians 3, Christ will transform our lowly bodies to conform them like unto His glorious body

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
 

WPM

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Where did you go to church? This is Christianity 101. Acts 2 tells us of the day the Church began with
The baptism of the Holy Spirit! John baptized with water, but Jesus pointed to this day when He would baptize with fire!
I'll highlight key verses:

Acts 2:1-4 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

OT prophets pointed to this day:

Acts 2:16-18 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.


A reference to David:
2:30-33 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2:41-42 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

The Church began on Pentecost, going out to the world, now being baptized, equipped with gifts and empowered by the Holy Spirit. God lives in us. Before that day, the disciples certainly believed in Christ, but they did not have the Holy Spirit, Whom Jesus promised as well as the priohets.

I am wondering if you have been baptized by the Holy Spirit?
You obviously have nothing. Acts 2 does not support your thesis. I suspect you know that. Nothing you highlighted supports your claims.

The basis of my beliefs are not based on what I was taught in Church but what i was taught in Scripture.
 

Ritajanice

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I’m not talking about our glorified bodies ..I know they will be resurrected .

I’m talking our Spirit was brought from death to life,the second we became Born Of God’s seed.
 
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WPM

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Resurrection in scripture is very specific, it is not being born again or made spiritually alive.
Resurrection has to do with us receiving new glorified bodies, like Christ has now.

Never mix the word resurrection, being resurrected, and born again, born of God, this is not right thinking.
Well then, she does disagree with you, and so do I, and, most importantly, so does Scripture. I will repost what I did to another poster recently.
 
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Scott Downey

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Resurrection of the dead is a physical one. And that's how it is taught in scripture
Both the wicked and the just will be resurrected, the wicked won't get glorified bodies like Christ has.
I wonder what kind of body God will give to them.

Acts 23
6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”

7 And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. 8 For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both. 9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees’ party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; [a]but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.”

The concept is do dead bodies come back to life, yes or no.

Well the graves open... what a sight that would have been. These dead were resurrected.
Now it is quite possible they also ascended in the cloud with Christ at His accension, I do not know, otherwise they died again.

Matthew 27
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
 

rwb

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@rwb would you say that being brought from spiritual death to spiritual life in Jesus

That our spirit has been resurrected ..by Gods almighty supernatural power?
Which is a Huge mystery on how he does it?
I ask you, as im only understanding your posts,WPM.

Our spirit is Born Again/ ressurected.

When we are born again our spirit has been raised to life, (made to understand things from above) not resurrected to ETERNAL life. Yes, by God's supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us we were dead in trespasses and sins. We were not physically dead, but spiritually dead. For that reason, our spirit had to be born again not resurrected to life again, to both know and enter the Kingdom of God. And by this new birth from above, our spirit, now indwelt with the Spirit sent from Christ is spiritually alive through Him and can never die.

The Bible calls being born again being 'quickened' not resurrected, because the spirit in man does not need to be resurrected to life, our spirit must be made new, in a way charged so that we can know things from above. Before our spirits are made new by being born again, we knew only of things of this earth, and had no ability to know Christ for everlasting life. It's a spiritual awakening from darkness and unbelief to light and faith in Christ. This new birth we have through the power of God gives our spirit eternal life, but our body is still destined to die. That's why only our physical body, not our spirit must be resurrected to immortal life after it dies. And this will be when Christ comes again.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is because the spiritual life we receive when we have been born again is eternal that Christ says, "He who lives and believes in Me shall never die." Our natural body of flesh will die, but our spirit will return to God a 'living soul."
 
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Ritajanice

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It’s wonderful rebirth, especially when the Spirit testifies Gods truth to our hearts. Mind blowing how he communicates with his children ..
 
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WPM

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Spamming a bunch of verses with no church mentioned and inserting the word church willy nilly is actually not refuting anything. As for the Rapture, the thread here is about your supposed proof that a pre wrath Rapture 'contradicts scripture'. It is you that have well and truly failed here so far. As for the Rapture itself, I have no need to 'support' it here! It is a slam dunk.

What about it? Jesus said He founded it. When He sent His spirit it really got rolling.

? Many sheep, Jesus said He had other than the folks there at the time. No idea about what your 'just to the Jews' is supposed to mean.

Great, so?

So? Strawman argument, I never even mentioned that

Nonsense. Go and preach the gospel to all the world Jesus said

More flogging a dead strawman horse




Acts 7:38
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us. ESV

The word assembly is defined as a group of any gathering or the assembly of Israel or an assembly of people or a gathering of citizens...etc In the Christian sense it means an assembly of Christians gathered or a company of Christians or those anywhere that constitute a body, or the whole body of Christians scattered through the earth, or a dead assembly of Christians gathered in heaven.
data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAAEAAABpCAMAAADMbLmMAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAAAFzUkdCAK7OHOkAAAAGUExURWtra96sJ+U+LrwAAAACdFJOU4CAoKjWUwAAAA9JREFUCNdjYBhEgJEaEAAFmwAkl0EZlQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==


In the case of the Jews in the desert that was long before Christians. So calling that pre Christian assembly a 'church' (but not the only or best translation) is fine as long as we realize it is not the church.





The old testament pre Christian saints ALSO were called out from the world of course.

Not my problem. Called out ones is a pretty simple and clear concept. All believers are called out! Pre Christian as well

Nothing like that. It shows believers congregated before Jesus came!


John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Yes, we are saved. So were the old testament believers. So will the tribulation and millennial saints be saved! Nothing to do with the doctrine you are flogging. You are all over the map and out in left field and don't really address the timing of the Rapture at all. Apparently you are too busy trying to pass of strawman theories to focus.
Bad translation? According to who? You? The word ekklesia is in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX), which Christ and the disciples employed 2000 years ago. The word ekklesia (Church) is found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) referring to Israel. This proves that the terms “Church” and “Israel” are synonymous and interchangeable. Christ and the Apostles employed and quoted extensively from the Septuagint during the early New Testament Church. The word is found 116 times in the New Testament. It was a term that they were very familiar with. The Septuagint was written about 200 years before Christ was born. While Dispensationalists conveniently portray the ekklesia as an Old Testament mystery and a New Testament phenomenon, Christ and the disciples were not so ignorant.

The ekklesia is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX): in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.

The Old Testament prophets lamented for centuries over the blindness and deafness of many among visible outward Israel (Isaiah 6:9–10, Jeremiah 5:21, and Ezekiel 12:2). This prepared the way for Christ and His liberating spiritual message to the nation. Jesus directed strong rebukes to those within natural Israel that professed but didn’t possess. He warned in Matthew 13:15-16: “For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.”

Many had eyes to see in the natural but they did not have eyes to see in the spiritual. They had ears to hear in the natural but they did not have ears to hear in the spiritual.

The saved saints under the Mosaic covenant were simply the assembly of God of that day. Also, the kingdom which was repeatedly promised to the remnant of Israel developed into the New Testament gathering. Elect Israel and the elect Church were/are the same entity. The word ekklesia conveys the idea of a common assembly in both eras. The New Testament ekklesia is simply an extension of the Old Testament ekklesia (qâhâl or ‛êdâh), albeit it has taken on a different form under the new covenant.
 
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WPM

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Resurrection in scripture is very specific, it is not being born again or made spiritually alive.
Resurrection has to do with us receiving new glorified bodies, like Christ has now.

Never mix the word resurrection, being resurrected, and born again, born of God, this is not right thinking.
Not so! Quite the opposite! The only way that we can transition from death to life (both spiritually and physically) is by way of resurrection. There is no other way! This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Two resurrections result for the believer from Christ’s one resurrection. Man needs both spiritually redeemed and physically redeemed. When one gets saved they are spiritually redeemed. But they are not physically redeemed until resurrection day. His “first resurrection” secured both resurrections for those who will put their faith in Christ.

Romans 6:3-6 says, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up [Gr. egeiro] from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

There are two Greek words used in Romans 6:3-10 that are used to describe the resurrection of Christ, and that are significantly in turn purposely equated to the believer and the new birth experience; they are egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and anastasis (Strong’s 386). Such a correlation between these two diverse types of resurrection (physical and spiritual) is only secured through Christ’s sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection, enabling the believer to walk in resurrection power and “newness of life.” The believer here is therefore supernaturally transferred from a condition of death into one of life. This undoubtedly relates (1) to a spiritual state, and, (2), to the here in now. It cannot relate to the physical resurrection which is still future and which occurs at the second coming of Christ.

The first word egeiro (Strong’s 1453) is used many times throughout the New Testament to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. These references are found in Matthew 14:2, 16:21, 17:9, 23, 20:19, 26:32, 27:63, 64, 28:6, 7, Mark 14:28, 16:6, 14, Luke 1:69, 9:22, 24:6, 34, John 2:19, 20, 22, 21:14, Acts 3:15, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30, 37, Romans 4:24, 25, 6:4, 9, 7:4, 8:11, 34, 10:9, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 15:4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 5:15, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Peter 1:21.

Similarly, the other Greek word anastasis (Strong’s 386), which is identified several times in Scripture with the new birth spiritual resurrection is also used several times to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. It is derived from the root word anistemi (Strong’s 450). These are outlined in Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34, 16:9, Luke 18:33, 24:7, 26, John 20:9, Acts 2:24, 31, 32, 3:26, 4:2, 33, 10:41, 13:33, 34, 17:3, 18, 26:23, Romans 15:12, Philippians 3:10 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 1 Peter 1:3, 3:21.

The same two Greek words that are repeatedly employed to describe Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead are also used in Ephesians 5:14 to describe the new birth experience of the believer. The sinner being commanded: Awake [Gr. egeiro] thou that sleepest, and arise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light (Ephesians 5:14).

The resurrection portrayed here is again not a physical resurrection, but, a spiritual resurrection in which the recipient (the sinner) receives the joy of salvation. Through this spiritual resurrection, the believer receives the “light” of God and is therefore spared the awful sentence of eternal wrath. The verb “arise” in this text specifically relates to salvation and is a metaphor describing the spiritual resurrection that Christians undergo when they are lifted from the grave of sin. It also demonstrates the blessing that follows this resurrection. The true child of God receives the blessed light of God’s dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 2:34 also records, “Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again [Gr. anastasis] (or resurrecting) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against.”

Matthew Henry explains in relation to this passage, “He (Jesus) is set for the rising again of many in Israel, that is, for the conversion of many to God that are dead and buried in sin, and for the consolation of many in God that are sunk and lost in sorrow and despair. Those whom he is set for the fall of may be the same with those whom he is set for the rising again of. He is set eis ptosin kai anastasin - for their fall, in order to their rising again; to humble and abase them, and bring them off from all confidence in themselves, that they may be exalted by relying on Christ; he wounds and then heals, Paul falls, and rises again”

The believer is raised from the grave of his sin and spiritual death at conversion, which of necessity must be a spiritual resurrection. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, “For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth [Gr. egeiro] the dead: Who delivered us (past tense) from so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense): in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us (future tense).”

This whole passage is concentrated upon the great eternal provision of spiritual deliverance. The word “raiseth” in this reading is a present active verb, therefore it is talking about a resurrection that is happening now, rather than the future physical resurrection. This is obviously speaking of spiritual resurrection, because it alone has been ongoing since Christ’s first (physical) resurrection. This will, of course, culminate with the general physical resurrection at His return.

The same word repeatedly applied to Christ’s physical resurrection in the New Testament – egeiro – is here again used spiritually to describe the spiritual resurrection of the believer from the reality of spiritual death. It shows a present realisation and victorious triumph over that state in this testimony of Paul. This reading does not at all indicate that the believer will not experience natural death, no, but rather, that he wouldn’t experience spiritual death. It positively outlines that through the spiritual (or first) resurrection the believer is rescued from entering into the awful realisation of the second death (eternal punishment).
 
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Ritajanice

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Thank you @WPM this you say below, really resonates with my spirit...

Many had eyes to see in the natural but they did not have eyes to see in the spiritual. They had ears to hear in the natural but they did not have ears to hear in the spiritual.