How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

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St. SteVen

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I don't know. The elohim who are the "us" in Genesis could just as easily be seen as the congregation of elohim with God in Psalm 82:1. John chapter 1 is about as clear as mud for Trinitarianism. Since God is defined as a Trinity of three persons in Trinitarianism then John 1:1 reads like "the Word was with the Trinity" which would place the Word outside of the Trinity. To only make it make problematic for Trinitarianism, there is no mention of a pre-existent being named the Word in the Old Testament.
Yes, it's complicated.
Jesus was the Word/Logos before he became flesh. There was no pre-existent Jesus. (flesh)

The history of Jesus, Son of God.
- He was with God in the beginning. He was God in the beginning as the Word/Logos/logic/reason/plan.
- He participated in creation of the heavens and earth.
- The Word/Logos became flesh. He was then named Jesus. (Y'shua) Joshua? God the Son.
- In becoming flesh (human) he laid his deity (being God) aside. Though He was God He didn't take advantage of that while here.
- Now He has returned to heaven as God the Son, and is enthroned at the right hand of God the Father where He intercedes for us.

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Runningman

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Yes, it's complicated.
Jesus was the Word/Logos before he became flesh. There was no pre-existent Jesus. (flesh)

The history of Jesus, Son of God.
- He was with God in the beginning. He was God in the beginning as the Word/Logos/logic/reason/plan.
- He participated in creation of the heavens and earth.
- The Word/Logos became flesh. He was then named Jesus. (Y'shua) Joshua? God the Son.
- In becoming flesh (human) he laid his deity (being God) aside. Though He was God He didn't take advantage of that while here.
- Now He has returned to heaven as God the Son, and is enthroned at the right hand of God the Father where He intercedes for us.

[
Yes, exactly. That's philosophy in my opinion, since the literal definition of logos would be about words, spoken words, speaking—like that idea. Yet words and spoken words aren't a person, yet the logos is assigned a masculine pronoun. This could be seen as personification, since non-person things that are described like a person is personification in literature. I think John wrote a poem basically in John 1.

That's where theology comes in, and I think Logos Theology is its own flavor of theology, but it isn't even mentioned, aside from just a few times, at least in all of Scripture. I lean more towards the idea that the Logos isn't actually literally definitive God, based on some evidence from things John said elsewhere. In Acts 4:23-31, it seems clear that John and Peter didn't equate Jesus with God the Creator. In 1 John 1:1-3, it looks like he is calling the Logos a thing.
 

Verily

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There are many things recorded about Christ that simply cannot align with the idea that He was an all-powerful, all-knowing God—co-equal with the "Godhead." It is written:

"Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, being 40 days tempted of the devil" (Luke 4:1-2). "He Himself hath suffered being tempted" (Heb. 2:18). "In all points tempted like as we are" (Heb. 4:15). "Ye have continued with me in my temptations" (Luke 22:28).

James declares (and this is surely self-evident): "God cannot be tempted" (James 1:13).

It is impossible to conceive of an all-wise, all-powerful God being tempted to sin. God could not possibly sin. Yet, Jesus Christ was tempted in every way as we are, and if we claim He could not have sinned, we deny the reality of His temptation and His overcoming it.

Jesus was tempted, but God cannot be tempted—therefore, the Trinity theory is false.

Check this out here, He says here

Deut 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

You aren't supposed to "tempt Him" as they "tempted Him". The way is worded, it doesn't mean he tempted by them or evil, but rather he was being put to the test (or tried) being tempted by them.

Jesus is actually called a "tried" stone. That would require "being tried", or tested

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

And we see the Spirit purposely driving him into a place to be tested worded this way.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Jesus isn't tempted of "evil", but is being tested/tempted by "the evil one"

He is actually called "the tempter" thats what he does,

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

The Spirit is purposefully leading Jesus into a place where he can be tried Jesus by being the tempted of Satan, (who is the tempter). But this, in the sense of whether that thing can be done.

Jesus is a "tried" not untried stone.

Same sort of thing with Jobs temptations by Satan (as were permitted by the LORD)

In Job 2:4 Satan hedges his bets against Job (more then once) but just one for an example

Job 2:4 Satan an answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

He tries to move the LORD against Job saying, "But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face"

This temptation of Satan is to get Job to curse God to his face, and this temptation will be delivered into Job's flesh. His intention is made clear to us. Job is "being tempted" in his flesh toward that effect (to curse God)

The LORD gives Job into his hand for this temptation with his own conditions.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Then it says,

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

And after the delivery of this affliction into Job's flesh Satans voice can be heard coming in through his wife's voice (she too is Job's flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone) and in Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

Unlike Adam who listened to the voice of his wife in the garden (who was listening to the serpent and being used as tool ) Job does not listen to his wfe

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

That situation reminds me a little of this (and his wife being the one taken by him at his will) in that

2 Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Its the same sort of thing as with Simon

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (See 1 Peter 1:6 where he is doing just this)

It's the "trying of" their faith. Jesus is the power of God (he prays for his faith) and so are being kept by the power of God through faith in these temptations.

Jesus is being tempted by these serpents after this manner

Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him

Luke 11:16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 11:53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:

Luke 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
 
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St. SteVen

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In 1 John 1:1-3, it looks like he is calling the Logos a thing.
Agree.

And for good reason I think.
The Logos/logic/reason/plan wasn't a person until the Logos became flesh.
That "the Word was God" seems to be forward-looking to when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

So then retrospectively, the Bible can declare about Jesus, that he was present in creation. (as the Logos of God)

BTW: Good post, thanks.

[
 

Taken

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How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

The Early Church…2,000 years ago.
Considering Before “The Early Church” 4,000 years of Ancient History, that Primarily Highlighted…but a small group of people…(Hebrews / Tribes of Israel)…as small in regard to the increasing world population of Gentiles.

Humans By Nature…be it a small group…isolated, a community, a land, town, city, school, prison… have one or a very Few, that establish rules, enforce rules and punish, shun, oust or kill the uncooperative / defiant.

The JEWISH God (ie. God of the Jews)…
WAS a Phenomena to The Gentiles at Large…

INVISIBLE…Can’t See or Hear or Smell or Touch Or Feel Him.
No Statues or Monuments…or Thing… To Look at….
QUITE A FEAT For ANY Human to SAY ….
Oh ya…that seems Logical…that makes Sense….and ALL the Gentiles of the World…said….Ya sure….I can Believe That! ???


Well , No, it is Neither Human Logic or Human Sense to Believe IN that which Is Invisible, not heard, not smelled, not touchable.

And BTW….Hebrews and Tribesmen OF Israel…..at Large themselves HAD THAT very COMPLAINT!

Frown, Frown….ONLY a very FEW were claiming to Have HAD VISIONS From God and The WORD OF God Supernaturally SENT / GIVEN Them.

Huff, huff…
Why did NOT everyone receive the Same?

Gods Will…that men choose to Believe By their OWN Desire and FREEWILL….
rather than Believe …Because they saw, heard, smelled, touched God.

A promise From God Given the Hebrews / Jews….
* God SHALL come to YOU…Walk among YOU, in a Fashion YOU CAN…see, hear, smell, touch, feel…. Be Patient…Open your Eyes, Open your Ears…See, Hear, Trust, Believe, it IS “I Am” with YOU.


And Thus…BEGINS Gods Fulfillment OF HIS Promise…
To Walk among the Jews, To Seek and Talk To the Jews IN a Fashion The Jews could, See, Hear, Touch…and They Were AMAZED…
[/]

AND….?? So what went haywire?

Remember Human nature? Small groups…with One or A Few “group LEADERS” ?
“Group LEADERS”… have An “Investment” to Keep, by “Protecting Their Investment”…
And Their Investment IS:
Their “CONTROLLING Leader Position”…

God “Appearing” in a fashion the JEWS could See and Hear….”was a Threat to the “Controlling Leaders of the Jews…ie the Pharisees.”

Whispers…whispers….What shall become of The Pharisees, IF the Jews at Large Become enthralled and Follow After this…”Nobody”??what shall become of …Their Clout?…Their Status? …Their Power?…Their Wealth?…Their Comforts?

Plot…Plot…To Him…Belittle? Challenge? Oust? Shun? Demonize? Kill?

Kill the outspoken “Jews” Standing WITH…this “Nobody”.

Think about it…
In Three Short Years…the Pharisee’s became so AFRAID of Jesus’ Presence and Teaching (putting THEM to Shame)…they had to plot His Death …and Forbid Jesus’ Teaching in the Jewish Synagogue's .

So what did Jesus SAY…when “many” of the Sadducees’ and Pharisee’s were spying on Jesus’ goings and doings?

Matt. 3:
[7] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, “O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come”?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Runningman

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Agree.

And for good reason I think.
The Logos/logic/reason/plan wasn't a person until the Logos became flesh.
That "the Word was God" seems to be forward-looking to when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

So then retrospectively, the Bible can declare about Jesus, that he was present in creation. (as the Logos of God)

BTW: Good post, thanks.

[
That's certainly plausible and more along the lines of what I believe too.
 
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GodsGrace

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How many verses does it take for Jesus words to have weight with you? You call yourself a Christian but diss the words of your lord and savior?!

I’ll pray for you.
The above is a rather silly statement.
Jesus proved He was God and actually said so.
If you wanted to have a serious discussion...I'd be willing.
but you're not and, anyway, this topic SHOULD NOT EVEN BE ALLOWED TO BE DISCUSSED
on a Christian Forum.

BECAUSE...
if it's a Christian forum...
the fact that JESUS IS GOD...
should be PRESUMED.
 

GodsGrace

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When Jesus Became God by Rudenstein.
I said POST SOME PROOF.

I don't really care what RUDENSTEIN thinks.
Is he friends with Bart?

I MEAN post some proof...you know...like HISTORY...
Historical proof.

Thanks.
 

GodsGrace

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Uh... No!

[
Uh no!
The creeds are NOT scripture?
Well, the Nicene Creed, to which you agreed to believe in posting Christian under your avatar...
IS SCRIPTURE.

Which of the following statements do you NOT agree with?
And maybe you should remove the word Christian from below your avatar?

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the almighty, maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.
 

GodsGrace

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When did John "say" that?
Not when Jesus was living.
And probably not in reference to Arianism and Gnosticism.

[
Excuse me SS
Were ANY of the gospels written while Jesus was still living?

Do you not know when John said
IF THEY WERE OF US THEY WOULD NOT HAVE LEFT US....

Try 1 John 2:19
and then do a small study on WHY he made this statement.
 

Wrangler

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Check this out here, He says here

Deut 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

You aren't supposed to "tempt Him" as they "tempted Him". The way is worded, it doesn't mean he tempted by them or evil, but rather he was being put to the test (or tried) being tempted by them.

Jesus is actually called a "tried" stone. That would require "being tried", or tested

Prove it dear sir.
I already did.
 

Wrangler

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The above is a rather silly statement.
Jesus proved He was God
You are the one that dissed Jesus words - in saying the Father is the only true God - on account of him only saying it ONCE.

In light of this, asking how many times he has to say something for you to give it weight is a very serious question.

Jesus proved he was NOT God by being born and dying - like all men.
 

St. SteVen

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The Logos/logic/reason/plan wasn't a person until the Logos became flesh.
That "the Word was God" seems to be forward-looking to when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

So then retrospectively, the Bible can declare about Jesus, that he was present in creation. (as the Logos of God)
The Trinity seems to have unfolded over time.
In the beginning the Word/Logos was God and the Spirit of God hovered over the waters at creation.
God spoke and it was so.

The Word/Logos, which was God and with God in the beginning, became flesh and dwelt among us. (Jesus)
Jesus told us that when he went away he would send another comforter/Advocate, the Holy Spirit.

The Bible declares that Jesus was present in creation as the Logos of God.

John 1:2-3 NIV
He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made.

[
 
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Verily

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Here's a few verses between the true God and living God here

Says the LORD (Jehovah) is both the true God and he is the living God

Jermemiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Jesus asks them...

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus is called "the eternal life" which was with the Father, which life was manifested

1 John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

To know Him that is true comes by Jesus Christ (who is the eternal life that was with the Father)

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Eternal life is to know the only true God and comes by Jesus Christ (whom He has sent)

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Shows serving the living and true God (while we wait for his Son) from heaven

1 Thes 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1 Thes 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
 
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Runningman

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The Trinity seems to have unfolded over time.
In the beginning the Word/Logos was God and the Spirit of God hovered over the waters at creation.
God spoke and it was so.

The Word/Logos, which was God and with God in the beginning, became flesh and dwelt among us. (Jesus)
Jesus told us that when he went away he would send another comforter/Advocate, the Holy Spirit.

The Bible declares that Jesus was present in creation as the Logos of God.

John 1:2-3 NIV
He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made.

[
Curiously, the Word is spoke of as God in the past tense in most translations of John 1:1 I have seen.
 

MonoBiblical

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The trinity doctrine began with Valentinus who filched his doctrine from another Hellenist religious writer. He had a paper on the three natures, and demonic vision of a baby calling itself the or a word.
 

St. SteVen

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The trinity doctrine began with Valentinus who filched his doctrine from another Hellenist religious writer. He had a paper on the three natures, and demonic vision of a baby calling itself the or a word.
What happened next?
It seems to have been widely accepted?

Filched? Demonic vision?

[