How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

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GodsGrace

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I already did.
You think posting the title of a book proves something or other?
Let's see:
Maybe you posted a book by someone that agrees with you?
What does that prove?

As I've stated....
POST SOMETHING HISTORICAL FROM THE EARLY CHURCH.
HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH.

Let me repeat:

ARIANISM WAS NEVER PART OF THE CHURCH.
NEVER.

Not at the beginning,,,not in the middle....and not after the reformation.

ARIANISM IS A HERESY.

Heresies are not part of the Christian church.

For those reading along that may be interested IN HISTORY of the Christian church:
(the Arian CONTROVERSY existed for a long time...it was never accepted by the orthodox church). orthodox...NOT Orthodox.



 

GodsGrace

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You are the one that dissed Jesus words - in saying the Father is the only true God - on account of him only saying it ONCE.

In light of this, asking how many times he has to say something for you to give it weight is a very serious question.

Jesus proved he was NOT God by being born and dying - like all men.
You don't want to believe that Jesus is God?
You want to believe some heretical belief?
That is your right.

Just don't state that arianism was accepted by the early church.
It was always a controversy....
It was declared heretical by the church.
 

GodsGrace

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And I just did. You just are too lazy to look at the proof.
Like I said.

Posting the title of a book is NO PROOF at all.
It just proves there are other heretics such as yourself roaming around
calling themselves Christian.

Find out what heretical means...since most don't know what it means.
 

St. SteVen

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[
 

Wrangler

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Just don't state that arianism was accepted by the early church.
LOL. The Apostles and Christ himself were unitarians. Christ was born a Jew under the law, required to believe in a unitarian God, where the Jews to this day still reject the trinity and there is no evidence Jesus ever stopped being Jewish. It's not merely the early church but those who walked with Christ. This explains the painfully obvious truth: Jesus did not teach the trinity and the Apostles did not write about the Trinity.

Arius, the priest came along over 3 centuries later, rejecting the Pagan transformation of the church that began embracing Greek ideas, especially the importance of the number 3. Arianism was the original belief and the Early church most certainly embraced it and developed creeds contrary to trinitarianism. Again, if you allow yourself to think politically, why do churches develop creeds? To oppose the zeitgeist thought since the inception. The council of Nicaea was formed for the purpose of opposing the common understanding of the unitarian God from the OT. First seven ecumenical councils - Wikipedia

From https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/how-arianism-almost-won
Thus, if a Roman emperor was disposed favorably toward Arian ideas—as Constantius and Valens were-bishops supporting the creed formulated at Nicaea could be severely punished, most often by being deposed and exiled. If an emperor favoring Nicaea was in power, Arian believers would suffer.
Roman emperors frequently deposed and exiled bishops and presbyters they deemed schismatic and heretical. These actions created a long-lasting atmosphere of suspicion, intrigue, division, and hatred within the church. Eastern bishops who supported Nicaea suffered severely during the reign of Constantius. After the murder of Constantius’s brother Constans in 350, the empire was consolidated under the rule of Constantius. It appeared that the entire Christian world had fallen into Arian hands.
When Valens took command in the East in 364, Simonetti says, he behaved “ferociously” against bishops who questioned the Arian position.

Putting aside your devotion to this doctrine, look again at the provided website. How Arianism almost won? The doctrinal debate of the trinity centuries after is political, not something found in Scripture. Now, let's examine the 2nd of The Anathemas of the 2nd Council of Constantinople @ 553 AD.
Anathema 2
If anyone does not confess that God the Word was twice begotten, the first before all time from the Father, non- temporal and bodiless, the other in the last days when he came down from the heavens and was incarnate by the holy, glorious, God-bearer, ever-virgin Mary, and born of her, let him be anathema.

Do you subscribe to Jesus begin twice begotten? Jesus is a created being, as all sons are. PERIOD. Most Protestants now reject the "ever Virgin" creed also.
 

wooddog

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Agree.

And for good reason I think.
The Logos/logic/reason/plan wasn't a person until the Logos became flesh.
That "the Word was God" seems to be forward-looking to when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

So then retrospectively, the Bible can declare about Jesus, that he was present in creation. (as the Logos of God)

BTW: Good post, thanks.

[
The plan of God from the beginning of creation. Just as the garden was created with that plan. Perfect thank God.
 
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GodsGrace

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LOL. The Apostles and Christ himself were unitarians. Christ was born a Jew under the law, required to believe in a unitarian God, where the Jews to this day still reject the trinity and there is no evidence Jesus ever stopped being Jewish. It's not merely the early church but those who walked with Christ. This explains the painfully obvious truth: Jesus did not teach the trinity and the Apostles did not write about the Trinity.

Arius, the priest came along over 3 centuries later, rejecting the Pagan transformation of the church that began embracing Greek ideas, especially the importance of the number 3. Arianism was the original belief and the Early church most certainly embraced it and developed creeds contrary to trinitarianism. Again, if you allow yourself to think politically, why do churches develop creeds? To oppose the zeitgeist thought since the inception. The council of Nicaea was formed for the purpose of opposing the common understanding of the unitarian God from the OT. First seven ecumenical councils - Wikipedia

From https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/how-arianism-almost-won
Thus, if a Roman emperor was disposed favorably toward Arian ideas—as Constantius and Valens were-bishops supporting the creed formulated at Nicaea could be severely punished, most often by being deposed and exiled. If an emperor favoring Nicaea was in power, Arian believers would suffer.
Roman emperors frequently deposed and exiled bishops and presbyters they deemed schismatic and heretical. These actions created a long-lasting atmosphere of suspicion, intrigue, division, and hatred within the church. Eastern bishops who supported Nicaea suffered severely during the reign of Constantius. After the murder of Constantius’s brother Constans in 350, the empire was consolidated under the rule of Constantius. It appeared that the entire Christian world had fallen into Arian hands.
When Valens took command in the East in 364, Simonetti says, he behaved “ferociously” against bishops who questioned the Arian position.

Putting aside your devotion to this doctrine, look again at the provided website. How Arianism almost won? The doctrinal debate of the trinity centuries after is political, not something found in Scripture. Now, let's examine the 2nd of The Anathemas of the 2nd Council of Constantinople @ 553 AD.
Anathema 2
If anyone does not confess that God the Word was twice begotten, the first before all time from the Father, non- temporal and bodiless, the other in the last days when he came down from the heavens and was incarnate by the holy, glorious, God-bearer, ever-virgin Mary, and born of her, let him be anathema.

Do you subscribe to Jesus begin twice begotten? Jesus is a created being, as all sons are. PERIOD. Most Protestants now reject the "ever Virgin" creed also.
Excuse me Wrangler...
I NEVER said it didn't exist as an idea.
YOU said it was believed by the Christian church of the time, which would be the CC.

It was A HERETICAL IDEA that was NEVER accepted by the church.

You can spin it how you want...
but that's the history.
 

GodsGrace

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Yup.

Your harassment on this topic shows how education through technology has failed the younger generation. Do you want me to chew your food for you too?
Wrangler,,,
I thought you were pretty intelligent.
Your ad hominum remarks cause me to do two things:

1. I wanted to post more since what you're talking about has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY or of CHRISTOLOGY being that your discussion comes hundreds of years AFTER the doctrine was already established but some wanted to change the MEANING OF CHRISTIANITY.

But I've decided that it's not worth my time.

2. I probably will not be speaking to you again.
A HERETIC that calls himself a Christian.


And thanks for calling me the younger generation!
It's greatly appreciated.

In the end, God will handle everything.
And I will remove myself from this most unedifying thread.

And your extreme ignorance on the matter.
 

MonoBiblical

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What happened next?
It seems to have been widely accepted?

Filched? Demonic vision?
The vision of the infant is demonic and influential. Nobody thought themselves influenced by it though. Valentinus stole his dualist theology from another Hellenistic writer. I can't remember his name though.

Origen is a dead in that he influenced Arianism deeply. The pre-existence of souls was similar to Jesus being permanently begotten and thus implying there was when he was not. Similar existence homoiousia, but not same existence homoousia.
 

MonoBiblical

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If anyone does not confess that God the Word was twice begotten
So that is how they say that he is begotten not made. But all humans are begotten not made. It makes it a stupid statement about Jesus.
 

GodsGrace

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Origenism was, and it is similar theologically.
I'm kind of tired of this Mono.
Sorry you came along so late.

No such thing in Christianity outside of Trinitarianism.
If you want to call that being judgemental...so be it.
If you want to be defined as CHRISTian...
then you MUST believe Jesus is God.
If you believe Jesus is God,, then the Trinity must, by necessity, be correct.

Here are some writings from the Early Church Fathers that were taught by the Apostles...
which means that the Apostles also believed this:

Ignatius of Antioch​

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).


Tatian the Syrian​

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito of Sardis​

“The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus​

“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Clement of Alexandria​

“The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things” (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

“Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son” (ibid., 10:110:1).

Tertullian​


“That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord” (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).

Origen​

“Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

Hippolytus​

“Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

“For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new” (ibid., 10:34).

Novatian​

“If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is.” (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage​

“One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit]” (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory the Wonderworker​

“There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Arnobius​

“‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’” (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]).

Lactantius​

“He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man” (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]).

“We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father” (ibid., 4:28–29).

Council of Nicaea I​

“We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made” (Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

“But those who say, ‘There was a time when he [the Son] did not exist,’ and ‘Before he was born, he did not exist,’ and ‘Because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes” (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

Patrick of Ireland​

“Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe, and whose coming we expect will soon take place, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to everyone according to his works” (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).
 

GodsGrace

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Aren't we judgmental? I suppose Ben Franklin was not a Christian, because he was Unitarian.
You might be interested in the following:
Or maybe not...

In other words, God is not a single, isolated person, as unitarian forms of theism like Islam hold; rather God is a plurality of persons, as the Christian doctrine of the Trinity affirms. On the unitarian view God is a person who does not give Himself away essentially in love for another; He is focused essentially only on Himself. Hence, He cannot be the most perfect being. But on the Christian view, God is a triad of persons in eternal, self-giving love relationships. Thus, since God is essentially loving, the doctrine of the Trinity is more plausible than any unitarian doctrine of God.

source: A Formulation and Defense of the Doctrine of the Trinity | Reasonable Faith
 
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GodsGrace

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Bye. The trinity is not in the Bible for a reason, which is why I’m a Unitarian Christian. I’m not Jewish.
You're Jewish W.
And the Trinity is all over the OT and the NT.
Don't read my posts 316, 317.
You might learn something.
Have a joyous Christmas.
 

Wrangler

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You're Jewish W.
And the Trinity is all over the OT and the NT.
Repeating falsehoods don’t not make them true. The trinity* is nowhere in the Bible.



* To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!
 
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