How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[RLT63]

Jesus was Jewish, and taught exclusively from Jewish Scripture because the NT was not yet written….the apostles also quoted OT Scripture, because they were all Jewish. All the first Christians were Jewish, so how can you say that?
Do you understand that every word penned in Scripture was written by a Jew? Not a single word was penned by anyone in Christendom…..not even the ECF.

Jesus wasn’t a “Christian”…..he lived and died as a Jew. He came to put God’s worship back on the rails because the disobedient Jewish leadership had derailed it…..for centuries before Christ presented himself to John for baptism, God had not sent a prophet to his wayward people because they were incorrigible. There was no point, and sending his son gave them no excuses…..he exposed them as the frauds they always were…..and they killed him because they did not possess the humility needed to admit their errors. History repeats.

Nature? Or personality traits? Jesus reflected his Father’s qualities and righteousness in ways that sinful humans could not. Being Adam’s equivalent (sinless) was what he needed to be in order to redeem the human race….he did not need to be God in order to do that……and besides, an immortal God cannot die.
Mere humans cannot kill God...yet you accept this without thinking.

Paul wrote that the Christ is “the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15) so how does one reflect an invisible personage?….obviously, not physically, but only in personality. He cannot be God in human form because God has no human form…God is “a spirit”. (John 4:24) Jesus in his pre-human form was also a spirit, like all those who inhabit the spirit realm.

An eternal God had no “beginning”….which is the meaning of the word “eternal”….”no beginning or end”….Jesus clearly had a beginning, (Rev 3:14) which is confirmed by the fact that he is “begotten”….and this was long before his human birth because Paul calls him “the firstborn of ALL creation” (Col 1:15), which means he existed before ALL creation, having worked at his Father’s side in fashioning the raw materials that the Father had brought into existence. (Prov 8:30-32) All things came into existence “THROUGH” the son…but not “from” him. This is called agency. We all know what an agent does…don’t we?

He was both 100% human and he was “divine” (divinely produced)….but he was not Yahweh. He was only ever called “theos” (god with a small “g”) because that word in Greek basically means “a divine mighty one”….but never is Jesus addressed as “ho theos” (THE God) which is how the Greeks addressed the one nameless God of the Jews.

If the divine name had still been in use, the trinity would never have been able to hold such a strong place in Christendom’s beliefs.

John 1:1 would have read correctly…
”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh (ho theos), and the Word was divine (theos)”.

Leaving out one little word, changed the entire meaning of John’s declaration. It was the Word who “became flesh”, not “ho theos“ (Yahweh).

"Do you understand that every word penned in Scripture was written by a Jew? Not a single word was penned by anyone in Christendom…..not even the ECF."

Luke was not Jewish, by volume he wrote more of the New Testament than anyone else
From Google:
"Luke was a physician and is believed to have been born in Antioch, Syria. He wrote the book of Acts, which is the second volume of the Gospel. Luke's style of Greek was similar to that of the Gentiles, and he emphasized that salvation was for all nations."

 

[Aunty Jane]

"Do you understand that every word penned in Scripture was written by a Jew? Not a single word was penned by anyone in Christendom…..not even the ECF."

Luke was not Jewish, by volume he wrote more of the New Testament than anyone else
From Google:
"Luke was a physician and is believed to have been born in Antioch, Syria. He wrote the book of Acts, which is the second volume of the Gospel. Luke's style of Greek was similar to that of the Gentiles, and he emphasized that salvation was for all nations."

I don’t think Google is a good source of authentic Biblical information TBH…..

Think about this…..would God use a gentile out of all the Bible writers to pen one of the gospels and other important accounts?
Luke was a Jewish historian regardless of what Google says. He was a stickler for accuracy.
The disciples of Jesus, used to pen the various books of the Bible were all Jewish.
Yes, he was a physician and faithful companion of the apostle Paul. He was the writer of the Gospel of Luke and of the Acts of Apostles. That Luke was well educated is apparent from his writings. Also, his background as a doctor is noticeable in his use of medical terms. (Luke 4:38; Luke 28:8)

Luke did not speak of himself as an eyewitness of the events in the life of Christ that are recorded in his Gospel account. (Luke 1:2) so, he apparently became a believer sometime after Pentecost of 33 C.E.
Nothing suggests that he was not Jewish.

 

[RLT63]

I don’t think Google is a good source of authentic Biblical information TBH…..

Think about this…..would God use a gentile out of all the Bible writers to pen one of the gospels and other important accounts?
Luke was a Jewish historian regardless of what Google says. He was a stickler for accuracy.
The disciples of Jesus, used to pen the various books of the Bible were all Jewish.
Yes, he was a physician and faithful companion of the apostle Paul. He was the writer of the Gospel of Luke and of the Acts of Apostles. That Luke was well educated is apparent from his writings. Also, his background as a doctor is noticeable in his use of medical terms. (Luke 4:38; Luke 28:8)

Luke did not speak of himself as an eyewitness of the events in the life of Christ that are recorded in his Gospel account. (Luke 1:2) so, he apparently became a believer sometime after Pentecost of 33 C.E.
Nothing suggests that he was not Jewish.

There are considerable sources (besides Google) who believe that Luke was a Gentile, in fact
The majority of scholars believe that Luke was a Gentile Christian, based on the phrase "those of the circumcision" in Colossians 4:11. If this is true, Luke would be the only New Testament writer who is clearly identified as non-Jewish.

There are those who disagree but the majority believe he was a Gentile

 

[face2face]

There are considerable sources (besides Google) who believe that Luke was a Gentile, in fact
The majority of scholars believe that Luke was a Gentile Christian, based on the phrase "those of the circumcision" in Colossians 4:11. If this is true, Luke would be the only New Testament writer who is clearly identified as non-Jewish.

There are those who disagree but the majority believe he was a Gentile

Luke was a Gentile and must have been financially independent, as he could not have traveled with Paul as a friend and valuable companion without some means of support. It is likely that Luke learned the truth from the apostle and, out of affection and gratitude, took on the responsibility of providing medical care for the often-afflicted Paul. As a physician, Luke was educated and knowledgeable, a keen observer, and a faithful recorder of the apostles' journeys and speeches. He was clearly commissioned by Theophilus to document what he knew about Jesus Christ and His apostles (Luke 1:1-3; Acts 1:1-3). His gospel account is the most chronological and literary of the four, and his record of the Acts highlights the key aspects of the work as it developed from the ministry of Christ. It is said that "with his Greek mind, he had a sense of form, a beautiful style—studied and elaborate."

 

[Runningman]

How very simple it would have been to just present God (Yahweh) and his son as they presented themselves….Father and son have existed since creation began, because simply put, an eternal God had no beginning, yet John declares that Jesus (as the Word, logos, spokesman for God) was “with God in the beginning”…..
How does such a clear and simple statement get so scrambles and necessitate the need for extreme translation gymnastics to accommodate a doctrine that did not exist in official Catholic church teachings until the 4th century?
There was no trinity among the first Christians because they were all Jewish? That would have been blasphemy! The Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him for merely declaring that God was his Father. (John 10:31-36) What did Jesus call himself? Never once did he say he was “God”.

It would have been incredibly easy to just stick with what the Bible already says and not add anything to it. However, I think there were ulterior motives, at least to some extent, among people. The reasons for converting Jesus into God are multifaceted and diverse. First of all, there were probably those who genuinely believed that the power Jesus wielded was because he was inherently God. However, it's true that the Bible speaks of Jesus in a manner in which he is described as having been anointed and empowered, exalted, given a name and status he didn't previously have. I personally believe that, for the most part, Jesus is our example of what a child of God can attain.

On the other hand, The Way isn't easy, but Jesus was sinless and even had the mindset to go through with a crucifixion. If Jesus is a man, then we have a big pair of shoes to fill. If Jesus is God, then we cannot do what he did, and we may as well not even try. If we don't need to try, then we need a good doctrine to excuse us. That's where OSAS and numerous other supporting doctrines come into effect. So, making Jesus into God makes The Way easier, but if Jesus is a man whom we must emulate, then it's going to be a bumpier ride. However, regardless of how difficult it may be, we must preserve the truth, whatever it may be.

 

[face2face]

It would have been incredibly easy to just stick with what the Bible already says and not add anything to it. However, I think there were ulterior motives, at least to some extent, among people. The reasons for converting Jesus into God are multifaceted and diverse. First of all, there were probably those who genuinely believed that the power Jesus wielded was because he was inherently God. However, it's true that the Bible speaks of Jesus in a manner in which he is described as having been anointed and empowered, exalted, given a name and status he didn't previously have. I personally believe that, for the most part, Jesus is our example of what a child of God can attain.

On the other hand, The Way isn't easy, but Jesus was sinless and even had the mindset to go through with a crucifixion. If Jesus is a man, then we have a big pair of shoes to fill. If Jesus is God, then we cannot do what he did, and we may as well not even try. If we don't need to try, then we need a good doctrine to excuse us. That's where OSAS and numerous other supporting doctrines come into effect. So, making Jesus into God makes The Way easier, but if Jesus is a man whom we must emulate, then it's going to be a bumpier ride. However, regardless of how difficult it may be, we must preserve the truth, whatever it may be.

Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[a]
was seen by angels, was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Tim 3:16

This is not the type of teaching a Trinitarian would want to use as a key verse to support their doctrine.

God cannot be vindicated by His own Spirit! Only a sinless man in sin's flesh can be vindicated.

The core issue lies in the change of nature that a Trinitarian believer invent to create their god-man. Doing so negates God's victory over sin's flesh and undermines the entire Atonement Principles.

This is a salvific issue.

F2F

 

[Davy]

Brakelite

In the Logos was "life and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4)

Logos represents the external manifestation of internal thought or reasoning.

That kind of description is from those who follow Occultism. They really... try to make a mystery out of the Logos involving their Cosmos ideas, when in reality, they don't have a clue.

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word (Greek logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
KJV

That logos term has to be considered per the SPIRIT realm of existence, NOT our flesh realm.

Just as God spoke and His creation came into existence, that is a working of that 'other' dimension, the dimension of Spirit, for God is a Spirit according to Apostle John (John 4:24).

 

[face2face]

That kind of description is from those who follow Occultism. They really... try to make a mystery out of the Logos involving their Cosmos ideas, when in reality, they don't have a clue.

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word (Greek logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
KJV

That logos term has to be considered per the SPIRIT realm of existence, NOT our flesh realm.

Just as God spoke and His creation came into existence, that is a working of that 'other' dimension, the dimension of Spirit, for God is a Spirit according to Apostle John (John 4:24).

Logos is synonymous with Wisdom. In Scripture, Logos represents the Gospel message, and is used in various contexts to convey thought, reason, and outward expression.

Additionally, we learn that Wisdom was with God from the beginning and was revealed through His acts of creation (Prov. 8:22). Therefore, everything that was created was done with His ultimate purpose in mind, rather than by blind force or chance.

Then tidings (Logos) of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. Acts 11:22

Gr. logos, "the outward expression of inward thoughts," which include the reason and purpose of the news conveyed.

Do you understand how Logos is used? I can post these all day if you like to prove this point.

If you need me to explain what Tidings means (news...good news etc) let me know

Christ was the outward expression of Yahwehs inward thoughts.

F2F

 

[Davy]

Logos is synonymous with Wisdom. In Scripture, Logos represents the Gospel message, and is used in various contexts to convey thought, reason, and outward expression.

Your still trying to apply that according to Esoterica, and NOT per the John 1 Scripture that directly points to Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ.

 

[face2face]

Your still trying to apply that according to Esoterica, and NOT per the John 1 Scripture that directly points to Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ.

Correct, a minority holds the accurate understanding of John 1:1. You don’t believe the Gospel is meant to be marketed and sold as merchandise across the earth, do you?

If the Nicene Council got John 1:1 wrong..how wrong do you think it potentially could be? And how few would have it right?

Jesus either pre-existed or he didn't
Jesus is either the very Word of Yahweh Himself or he is a perfect expression of that Word
Jesus was raised up out of sinful flesh to overcome it or he wasn't

You see, the issue is not with my interpratation but with yours - I can harmonise John 1:1 with John 1:14 and with Romans 8:1-3 and Hebrews 2:14-17....but you cannot.

F2F

 

[Davy]

Correct, a minority holds the accurate understanding of John 1:1. You don’t believe the Gospel is meant to be marketed and sold as merchandise across the earth, do you?

By such a baloney question, you show you don't like being corrected in the Scriptures. John 1 is about Jesus as The Word, something that none of us will fully understand until we see Him in final and are not limited by fleshy thoughts.

 

[face2face]

By such a baloney question, you show you don't like being corrected in the Scriptures. John 1 is about Jesus as The Word, something that none of us will fully understand until we see Him in final and are not limited by fleshy thoughts.

Jesus is the New Creation and everything which is needful for us to understand has been revealed to us. Failure to understand that Creation is failure to understand the Word which has been revealed to you.

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3

When a Trinitarian leans on mysteries and promotes ignorance about the true nature of God (Yahweh) and His Son, that's when I come to understand their folly.

If you do not understand how Logos is used from both ends of the Scripture, it is not due to a lack of revelation, but rather your own misunderstanding.

But first cast off the trinitarian stained garment and approach the Word with openness of mind.

You will see.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Davy

Consider Logos then...

When the dew settled on the camp at night, the manna also came down. Numbers 11:9

Manna is referred as "angel's food" and the "corn of heaven":

Psalm 78:24-25: "And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full"

What was the manna symbolic of Davy?

F2F

 

[The Learner]

Let's discuss "Trinitarianism as the outgrowth of the early Church’s effort to understand and explain its own experience of the risen Christ in philosophical terms." - @RedFan

Open discussion on the development of the Trinitarian doctrine.

[

Oh boy, I am not keeping up

please pray all I am sick again

 

[The Learner]

@Davy

Consider Logos then...

When the dew settled on the camp at night, the manna also came down. Numbers 11:9

Manna is referred as "angel's food" and the "corn of heaven":

Psalm 78:24-25: "And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full"

What was the manna symbolic of Davy?

F2F

 

[The Learner]

It would have been incredibly easy to just stick with what the Bible already says and not add anything to it. However, I think there were ulterior motives, at least to some extent, among people. The reasons for converting Jesus into God are multifaceted and diverse. First of all, there were probably those who genuinely believed that the power Jesus wielded was because he was inherently God. However, it's true that the Bible speaks of Jesus in a manner in which he is described as having been anointed and empowered, exalted, given a name and status he didn't previously have. I personally believe that, for the most part, Jesus is our example of what a child of God can attain.

On the other hand, The Way isn't easy, but Jesus was sinless and even had the mindset to go through with a crucifixion. If Jesus is a man, then we have a big pair of shoes to fill. If Jesus is God, then we cannot do what he did, and we may as well not even try. If we don't need to try, then we need a good doctrine to excuse us. That's where OSAS and numerous other supporting doctrines come into effect. So, making Jesus into God makes The Way easier, but if Jesus is a man whom we must emulate, then it's going to be a bumpier ride. However, regardless of how difficult it may be, we must preserve the truth, whatever it may be.

Hi firend

 

[The Learner]

Rollled downhill to here

 

[Runningman]

Hi firend

Hi friend. Nice to see you.

 

[face2face]

View attachment 55663

@Davy - consider this symbol for a moment! No the sponge cake! But, this Manna, how did it form? In Whose mind was it devised? Was it the expression of Logos? Was this God's outward working of an inward thought?

It was the literal "bread from heaven" (Exod. 16:4; John 6:30-31) which spoke to the spiritual bread from Heaven!

The manna was provided to the Israelites as a sign of the promise made to Abraham (Psa. 105:40-42; 106:43-45), and in this way, it foreshadowed Christ, the true manna from heaven (John 6:32-35). One of Christ's titles is the Word or Logos, and the manna symbolized the Word of God. When a believer takes in that Word, they take part in Christ. Though the manna had to be consumed daily (since it would not last beyond a single day except on the Sabbath), some of it was placed in the Tabernacle and miraculously preserved. Thus, the manna represented that which grants eternal life. As such, the Lord promised, "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna" (Rev. 2:17), symbolizing immortality.

Christ the Son was the manifestation of Logos through sins flesh and became the Son of God on High. In Christ God has placed eternal life and the very Word (Logos) will judge us in that day.

F2F

 

[Brakelite]

@Davy - consider this symbol for a moment! No the sponge cake! But, this Manna, how did it form? In Whose mind was it devised? Was it the expression of Logos? Was this God's outward working of an inward thought?

It was the literal "bread from heaven" (Exod. 16:4; John 6:30-31) which spoke to the spiritual bread from Heaven!

The manna was provided to the Israelites as a sign of the promise made to Abraham (Psa. 105:40-42; 106:43-45), and in this way, it foreshadowed Christ, the true manna from heaven (John 6:32-35). One of Christ's titles is the Word or Logos, and the manna symbolized the Word of God. When a believer takes in that Word, they take part in Christ. Though the manna had to be consumed daily (since it would not last beyond a single day except on the Sabbath), some of it was placed in the Tabernacle and miraculously preserved. Thus, the manna represented that which grants eternal life. As such, the Lord promised, "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna" (Rev. 2:17), symbolizing immortality.

Christ the Son was the manifestation of Logos through sins flesh and became the Son of God on High. In Christ God has placed eternal life and the very Word (Logos) will judge us in that day.

F2F

God did not send the Logos to become a Son. He sent His Son Who is the Logos, the voice, spokesman, of the Father. The Son is the begotten of God, and as the Son created all things. God sent His Son. He didn't send anything or anyone else to become a Son.

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ”
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (begotten) of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ”
Colossians 1:13-17 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. ”
Hebrews 1:1-3, 6-12 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app