Here is why, as an Adventist, I believe America is in Trouble.

[David in NJ]

Remember in context Christ said he didn't come to destroy the law or prophets, but to fulfil them as in fulfil the law and prophets. What does fulfil mean in that context?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Same as Psalm 23

1The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
2He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
3He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

5You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.

If you carefully examine this Prophetic Psalm you will SEE how Christ FULL-FILLED it for us.

Pray and Dwell on this tonight and then i will gladly respond more pointedly to your question.

Peace my Brother, i am calling it a night = Good Night

Well, in context he said fulfil in the sense of to finish something, the last one in your post. As far as the law goes, it was finished by Christ in that fulfilling. This means nothing more is needed to required by it. This is why Christians don't burn offerings etc that the old law demanded to be done. It was finished by Jesus. All of the law was, not just part of it.

This is why a new law was introduced, called the law of liberty or the law of Christ. It was new and wasn't the fulfilled law Christ spoke of.

ABSOLUTEY - POSITIVELY - EXPONENTIONALLY to the 10th Power (If you know what i mean)

i am very happy that you responded and let us look deeper at EXACTLY how CHRIST FULL-FILLED Gen ch2 Exodus ch31

Tomorrow - as i am shutting down for the Night

 

[ewq1938]

i am very happy that you responded and let us look deeper at EXACTLY how CHRIST FULL-FILLED Gen ch2 Exodus ch31

I am only interested in examining what Christ said in the one verse being discussed about the law and prophets being fulfilled. I don't see other passages as contextually related.

A crossword puzzle can be burned and destroyed, or it can be finished (everything answered and filled in). The method is different but the end result is similar in nothing more can be done for the puzzle. This is what happened to the law. It was not destroyed but it was completed so nothing else is needed from us because Christ took care of it completely. This is why most Christians don't rest, or avoid kindling a fire on Saturdays, because there is no longer law about it as it was finished and is done.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

God never lies = Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

Yeah, Jesus was speaking of Himself... He never taught anybody to keep Saturday sabbath.

And, no where in the New Testament do we see admonishments or corrections for those not keeping Saturday sabbath.

Why is that???? It's because, the Lord does not require Christians to observe Saturday sabbath

Here's REST according to the New Covenant... is it's not speaking of keeping Saturday sabbath!

Hebrews 4:4-11
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:6 tells us "to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief" so those living under the Law of Moses did not enter in to God's REST... even though they were observing Saturday sabbath!

What the Lord's Word is speaking of in Hebrews 4:8 is what we have under the New Covenant which is resting in faith IN Christ... not just one day a week, but ALL days.

Therefore Saturday sabbath does not meet the higher standards Jesus Christ has brought forth for His people in the New Covenant due to it';s better promises.

Maybe some day... the sabbatarians can come on over in to the New Covenant and let Jesus be their High Priest rather than trying to go back and live under Moses.

Under the Law of Moses... Saturday sabbath was a thing.

Under the Law of Christ (New Covenant), it is NOT a thing because a different rest has replaced Saturday sabbath which made it obsolete since we are IN Christ now and ... HE is out rest... HE is our sabbath 24/7/365 (Mat 11:28, Hebrews 4:9-11)

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You will not accept anything we tell you concerning the new covenant while you don't believe everything God told you about the old covenant.

You... are not the Holy Ghost!

And you are already off track...

@Phoneman777 is out
@Big Boy Johnson is out
@Lizbeth is out
@Jay Ross is out

No, we're all abiding in Christ... the rest of you apparently are abiding in SDA dogma... believing if you skipped a Saturday God would reign down hell fire and brimstone on your household er something

 

[David in NJ]

Yeah, Jesus was speaking of Himself... He never taught anybody to keep Saturday sabbath.

And, no where in the New Testament do we see admonishments or corrections for those not keeping Saturday sabbath.

Why is that???? It's because, the Lord does not require Christians to observe Saturday sabbathView attachment 41188

Here's REST according to the New Covenant... is it's not speaking of keeping Saturday sabbath!

Hebrews 4:4-11
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:6 tells us "to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief" so those living under the Law of Moses did not enter in to God's REST... even though they were observing Saturday sabbath!

What the Lord's Word is speaking of in Hebrews 4:8 is what we have under the New Covenant which is resting in faith IN Christ... not just one day a week, but ALL days.

Therefore Saturday sabbath does not meet the higher standards Jesus Christ has brought forth for His people in the New Covenant due to it';s better promises.

Maybe some day... the sabbatarians can come on over in to the New Covenant and let Jesus be their High Priest rather than trying to go back and live under Moses.

Under the Law of Moses... Saturday sabbath was a thing.

Under the Law of Christ (New Covenant), it is NOT a thing because a different rest has replaced Saturday sabbath which made it obsolete since we are IN Christ now and ... HE is out rest... HE is our sabbath 24/7/365 (Mat 11:28, Hebrews 4:9-11)

Your very close to the FULL CUP of Truth but still not yet all the Way there........

Good Night Brother

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Your very close to the FULL CUP of Truth but still not yet all the Way there........

Well, I'll continue to go with what the Lord says in His Word... and ride on His Cup of Full Truth!

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

 

[David in NJ]

Well, I'll continue to go with what the Lord says in His Word... and ride on His Cup of Full Truth!

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

This is exactly where i have been encouraging you and everyone to go = "It is written"

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

This is exactly where i have been encouraging you and everyone to go = "It is written"

"It is written" has been my source all along.

I learned that years ago when I discovered most pastors don't know their backside from deep center field and it's the Lord... who is our Teacher

Matthew 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

 

[Davy]

The only reason any of us are discussing the Sabbath at all is because at some time in this thread a non Sabbath keeper, followed by others, decided to judge Sabbath keepers, contrary to the very text you quoted. All we are doing is defending the reasons why we observe it. We aren't judging anyone.

The only reason this discussion is happening here, is because some here want to bring all Christians back under bondage to law-keeping, just like Pharisee-converts to Christ tried to do among the Galatians, which Apostle Paul rebuked.

And if you'll notice in Acts 15, the Apostles at Jerusalem made NO REQUIREMENT of Sabbath keeping for the Gentiles. So those in the SDA churches ought to re-read that Acts Scripture and remember it when they start claiming Christians are sinning because of not keeping a Jewish sabbath. And also remember what Paul said in Colossians 2:16 that we are NOT to be judged in meat, nor drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of a new moon, nor of the sabbath days.

Why then do believers on Jesus Christ from the Jews feel like they must still keep God's laws? I have discovered that many Jews for Jesus and SDA don't really know the answer to that question, much less Gentiles like myself. But enough Bible study reveals it.

In Genesis 49, Jacob gave a prophecy for the 'last days' to each of his 12 sons that would become the 12 tribes of Israel. To Judah, he said he would maintain the royal sceptre rule, and care of the law, all the way up to Shiloh's (Jesus) coming, and then to Him would the gathering of the people be.

Thus Judah is still... to this day... to be law-keeper. So it is like God has put in the Jews a natural desire towards God's Old Testament laws. And sometimes, those Jews who believe in Jesus sometimes forget that some... of those Old Testament laws were 'changed' under The New Covenant Jesus Christ. For example, under Christ the idea of sacrifices is about our love to The Father and The Son. The Old Covenant Passover Christians still keep it 'spiritually' through Christ Jesus, but not literally like the Old Testament ritual like today's Jews still do. These are only a couple of examples. Sabbath keeping is simply another one; Jews inherently feel the need to keep it per the Old Covenant way, just as they also do with passover as per the Old Testament ritual. Yet for today's time, until Jesus returns, God's sabbath can be recognized on ANY day now under Jesus Christ. We in Christ Jesus are no longer subject to a strict Saturday sabbath like the orthodox Jews practice.

Does that mean we won't keep God's sabbath per the Old Testament method in the world to come under Jesus Christ? No, we will keep it in the world to come, which if one closely reads the actual Colossians 2:17 verse, Apostle Paul points to those things being a 'shadow' of the world come, meaning we will observe them when Jesus returns.

So do we really... get want to get into discussions about the keeping of God's laws when even the Jews cannot be perfect in keeping it? I think not.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

All we are doing is defending the reasons why we observe it. We aren't judging anyone.

You people tell others they are "required" by the Lord as a Christian to go to church only on Saturday which is false doctrine.

Then you people claim if one goes to church on Sunday they actually worship the day of Sunday which is the mark of the beast which is of course false doctrine.

You people do actually sit in judgement over others that don't follow the teachings of Ellen G White and claim they are in error and living in sin and are servants of satan.

You cannot teach such BULLony and not expect others to push back since none of your blah blah is actually taught in scripture.

 

[BarneyFife]

The better advice is to look EVERYWHERE, not just in front or behind you. You already think you know the AC so you aren't looking anywhere but there. Others make the same exact mistake, but looking elsewhere in the past, or not even concerned about looking at all.

The real AC isn't what most even think he will be, won't look like they think he will and are not prepared to identify or refuse him and what he wants of you.

The classical view of the Protestant interpretation of Revelation 13 isn't some fly-by-night boogeyman theory dreamed up by a click-hungry Internet hound. Men went without food so they could spend weeks or months at a time doing nothing but studying and praying that their eyes would be opened so they could find and gather texts such as:

Certainly the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret plan To His servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

2 Thessalonians
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is

***already at work;*** ​

only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

.

 

[BarneyFife]

You people tell others they are "required" by the Lord as a Christian to go to church only on Saturday which is false doctrine.

Then you people claim if one goes to church on Sunday they actually worship the day of Sunday which is the mark of the beast which is of course false doctrine.

You people do actually sit in judgement over others that don't follow the teachings of Ellen G White and claim they are in error and living in sin and are servants of satan.

You cannot teach such BULLony and not expect others to push back since none of your blah blah is actually taught in scripture. View attachment 41227

And there it is:

"YOU PEOPLE..."

.

 

[Brakelite]

OK, loved your post but here is the 'double edge sword'

Galatians 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written,
“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

So we have a CLEAR distinction separating us from the OT commandments.

Therefore we must be PERFECT in our understanding of EXACTLY what the LORD has commanded us under the NT.

I love that you are asking these questions David. They are challenging for both sides of the discussion. You are showing an honest desire to understand truth, and for others to do the same. I commend you for being truly inquiring, and not stubbornly set in your preconceived ideas and beliefs.

Have you ever wondered about Romans 2:12,13? And how that might relate to Romans 3:31? And then consider harmonising Romans 8:2-4. I believe they all relate to the one and same law. The same law that is referred to in chapter 3 verse20, saying, “by the law is the knowledge of sin”. It seems to me that chapter 3 is telling us that we are all sinners, and the law is proof of the fact, while chapter 8 is telling us that full obedience is not only possible for those in Christ, but necessary for salvation. Note everyone...I am not saying obedience brings to the sinner justification.

Chapter 8 is giving us an ultimatum. Either we are in the Spirit, and righteous before the law and before God, or we are carnal, at enmity with God and not subject to the laws of God, and therefore standing in a state of guilt before God and man.

You people tell others they are "required" by the Lord as a Christian to go to church only on Saturday which is false doctrine.

Then you people claim if one goes to church on Sunday they actually worship the day of Sunday which is the mark of the beast which is of course false doctrine.

You people do actually sit in judgement over others that don't follow the teachings of Ellen G White and claim they are in error and living in sin and are servants of satan.

You cannot teach such BULLony and not expect others to push back since none of your blah blah is actually taught in scripture. View attachment 41227

You've already been told that none of the above is authentic Adventist teaching. You aren't listening.

 

[MA2444]

Why not the rather begin with the unscriptural Sunday... Jesus is my rest... Replacement for the weekly Sabbath concept. Get that right, then we can discuss further.

Not to stray from the topic but I watched a video today and they was saying something about SDA's have done away with the Sign of the Lord? I took that to mean they don't use the crosses in their churches anymore?

Do you know if that is true or not? Because I have no clue about that... Thx.

 

[David in NJ]

I love that you are asking these questions David. They are challenging for both sides of the discussion. You are showing an honest desire to understand truth, and for others to do the same. I commend you for being truly inquiring, and not stubbornly set in your preconceived ideas and beliefs.

Have you ever wondered about Romans 2:12,13? And how that might relate to Romans 3:31? And then consider harmonising Romans 8:2-4. I believe they all relate to the one and same law. The same law that is referred to in chapter 3 verse20, saying, “by the law is the knowledge of sin”. It seems to me that chapter 3 is telling us that we are all sinners, and the law is proof of the fact, while chapter 8 is telling us that full obedience is not only possible for those in Christ, but necessary for salvation. Note everyone...I am not saying obedience brings to the sinner justification.

Chapter 8 is giving us an ultimatum. Either we are in the Spirit, and righteous before the law and before God, or we are carnal, at enmity with God and not subject to the laws of God, and therefore standing in a state of guilt before God and man.

You've already been told that none of the above is authentic Adventist teaching. You aren't listening.

Appreciate you my Brother,

Can i answer tomorrow as i am now sitting down to dinner and then watching a Hockey Game with my son.

 

[David in NJ]

I am only interested in examining what Christ said in the one verse being discussed about the law and prophets being fulfilled. I don't see other passages as contextually related.

A crossword puzzle can be burned and destroyed, or it can be finished (everything answered and filled in). The method is different but the end result is similar in nothing more can be done for the puzzle. This is what happened to the law. It was not destroyed but it was completed so nothing else is needed from us because Christ took care of it completely. This is why most Christians don't rest, or avoid kindling a fire on Saturdays, because there is no longer law about it as it was finished and is done.

TRUTH - @ewq1938 "This is what happened to the law. It was not destroyed but it was completed so nothing else is needed from us because Christ took care of it completely. "
However - do not say nothing else was 'needed' otherwise there would not be a New Covenant with the Law of Christ

PART Truth - @ewq1938 "This is why most Christians don't rest, or avoid kindling a fire on Saturdays, because there is no longer law about it as it was finished and is done."

TRUTH - @ewq1938 -This is why most Christians don't rest, or avoid kindling a fire on Saturdays,

Part Truth - @ewq1938 because there is no longer law about it as it was finished and is done."
The only part that was done away with was the Saturday rest/no fire.

However, the Law of Christ demands that which was done away with has been SUPERCEDED by a New Law that is just as BINDING as the OT Law.

This is the Law that CHRIST established by fulfilling the Old and bringing in the NEW and BETTER Covenant.

As in the Old Law, the New Covenant Law of CHRIST still has the SAME = LIFE or DEATH, Blessing or Cursing but this time it extends to the whole world = GENESIS and Matthew 24:14 and Acts 17:22-31

The New Covenant Law of Christ establishes for us a BETTER WAY to LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS

But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law,
but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

 

[David in NJ]

I am only interested in examining what Christ said in the one verse being discussed about the law and prophets being fulfilled. I don't see other passages as contextually related.

A crossword puzzle can be burned and destroyed, or it can be finished (everything answered and filled in). The method is different but the end result is similar in nothing more can be done for the puzzle. This is what happened to the law. It was not destroyed but it was completed so nothing else is needed from us because Christ took care of it completely. This is why most Christians don't rest, or avoid kindling a fire on Saturdays, because there is no longer law about it as it was finished and is done.

@ewq1938 - I am only interested in examining what Christ said in the one verse being discussed about the law and prophets being fulfilled. I don't see other passages as contextually related.

What Christ said in one verse (Matt 5:17) comprises ALL of Scripture

 

[David in NJ]

I love that you are asking these questions David. They are challenging for both sides of the discussion. You are showing an honest desire to understand truth, and for others to do the same. I commend you for being truly inquiring, and not stubbornly set in your preconceived ideas and beliefs.

Have you ever wondered about Romans 2:12,13? And how that might relate to Romans 3:31? And then consider harmonising Romans 8:2-4. I believe they all relate to the one and same law. The same law that is referred to in chapter 3 verse20, saying, “by the law is the knowledge of sin”. It seems to me that chapter 3 is telling us that we are all sinners, and the law is proof of the fact, while chapter 8 is telling us that full obedience is not only possible for those in Christ, but necessary for salvation. Note everyone...I am not saying obedience brings to the sinner justification.

Chapter 8 is giving us an ultimatum. Either we are in the Spirit, and righteous before the law and before God, or we are carnal, at enmity with God and not subject to the laws of God, and therefore standing in a state of guilt before God and man.

You've already been told that none of the above is authentic Adventist teaching. You aren't listening.

i must first respond to @ewq1938 since we did not finish our discussion from yesterday.

 

[Phoneman777]

OK, loved your post but here is the 'double edge sword'

Galatians 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written,
“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

So we have a CLEAR distinction separating us from the OT commandments.

Therefore we must be PERFECT in our understanding of EXACTLY what the LORD has commanded us under the NT.

Thanks, friend.

God indeed expects us to perform such commandments as were not "shadows of things to come" (the "shadows" were nailed to the Cross) which is our "reasonable service". However, since the carnal mind can't perform them (Romans 8:7 KJV), we need Christ to come into our hearts and perform them for us.

Everytime a man says "no" to lust or booze or drugs or gambling or anger or whatever, it is not him saying it, but Christ in him, performing the obedience ("imparted righteousness") and giving the man credit for it ("imputed righteousness").

John says "His commandments are not grievous" if we love God, which means that those who find them grievous and fight against them and those who preach them really don't love God, no matter how high they raise the praise in church. It's that simple.

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks, friend.

God indeed expects us to perform such commandments as were not "shadows of things to come" (the "shadows" were nailed to the Cross) which is our "reasonable service". However, since the carnal mind can't perform them (Romans 8:7 KJV), we need Christ to come into our hearts and perform them for us.

Everytime a man says "no" to lust or booze or drugs or gambling or anger or whatever, it is not him saying it, but Christ in him, performing the obedience ("imparted righteousness") and giving the man credit for it ("imputed righteousness").

John says "His commandments are not grievous" if we love God, which means that those who find them grievous and fight against them and those who preach them really don't love God, no matter how high they raise the praise in church. It's that simple.

SEE Post 476