Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[Ritajanice]

You mean if He = the Living Word= Christ

The Spirit enters our heart....Flesh gives birth to flesh.....Spirit gives birth to spirit.

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children, that comes by divine revelation ...you don’t need to read any Bible to be Born Again by divine heart revelation .
anyway, that’s for another topic..

God Bless and may the Lord Bless you Brother,as you journey with him.

 

[Marty fox]

But your view suffers from an exegetical problem, because John doesn't mention the resurrection of Jesus in that context. Rather he mentions two groups of people who were once dead, but came back to life. To participate in the first resurrection is to be among the number of people who were in the first group.

What did it say right before that

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

 

[Ritajanice]

Hi @Marty fox is that your family?

My, what a handsome / beautiful bunch you are.

 

[Marty fox]

Hi @Marty fox is that your family?

My, what a handsome / beautiful bunch you are.

Yes it is thank you my wife and four children but it is almost 10 years old now so I have a couple of grey hairs LOL.

I do enjoy your post

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The Spirit enters our heart....

So does the Living Word….

John 14:15-29

King James Version

​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.”

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[Ritajanice]

So does the Living Word….

John 14:15-29​

​

King James Version​

​

​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.”

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Wick Stick]

When Jesus speaks about the saving of souls, he speaks about rebirth, not reanimation.

Both I think. Paul definitely speaks of it in terms of re-animation:

Eph 2: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 

[ewq1938]

Although this is true, the question is whether John is making that point in Revelation 20:4-5 or another point entirely. This is an exegetical question, which must be answered from the text under review. John mentions two groups of dead people who come back to life. Participating in the "first resurrection" in that context refers to being counted among those in the first group of dead who were brought back to life.

10. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is when a person is born again and is spiritually resurrected?

The problem with this idea is that Revelation 20 specifically says those who are of the first resurrection had died from being beheaded in the great Tribulation. They were beheaded "for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" which means they were already "spiritually resurrected" ie: born-again Christians before dying so the only resurrection left for them to experience would have to be a bodily resurrection. Revelation 20:4 is depicting dead Christians coming back to life (the physical resurrection spoken in many prophecies).

 

[TribulationSigns]

10. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is when a person is born again and is spiritually resurrected?

The problem with this idea is that Revelation 20 specifically says those who are of the first resurrection had died from being beheaded in the great Tribulation. They were beheaded "for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" which means they were already "spiritually resurrected" ie: born-again Christians before dying so the only resurrection left for them to experience would have to be a bodily resurrection. Revelation 20:4 is depicting dead Christians coming back to life (the physical resurrection spoken in many prophecies).

Rev 20:4-5
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The problem is that verses 4 and 5 do NOT discuss the so-called seven years of great tribulation. Rather, the thousand years represent the whole church period from the Cross to the Second Coming, during which the Elect witness to the Gospel. That is our great commission. Because of our testimony of Gospel, we will be hated:

Matthew 10:21-22

• "And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
• And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Hate is murder, 1st John 3:15. We all know it is the saints that are persecuted and hated, and it is they who suffer under tribulation. The very Greek word translated tribulation signifies pressure, and is the signification of the anguish which the elect will be under. Not to the unbelievers, to whom it will be business as usual in the church and in the world.

Keep in mind, the Tribulation is NOT the judgment or wrath of God upon the elect. Why would God be longsuffering to wait until all the Elect are sealed and not hurt, in order to bring Judgment upon them? No, God has always chastised the election, even from day one. But the judgment is reserved for those who will not endure. Tribulation is normative for the saints, so they have been killed all day long just for testimony to the Gospel Truth:

Psa 44:22

• Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Now that is the martyr of the Saints being spoken about here.

 

[ewq1938]

The problem is that verses 4 and 5 do NOT discuss the so-called seven years of great tribulation.

This is known as a strawman fallacy.

 

[WPM]

Although this is true, the question is whether John is making that point in Revelation 20:4-5 or another point entirely. This is an exegetical question, which must be answered from the text under review. John mentions two groups of dead people who come back to life. Participating in the "first resurrection" in that context refers to being counted among those in the first group of dead who were brought back to life.

V6 does not relate partaking in the first resurrection to just martyrs. It relates it to all the redeemed.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is known as a strawman fallacy.

I shared Scripture that details how saints were beheaded for their witness during the Great Commission, which spans from Pentecost to the Second Coming, represented by a thousand years. Where is your biblical evidence with Scripture supporting your definition of martyrs in your concept of a seven-year Great Tribulation? When you refer to "strawman fallacy," it shows that you struggle to refute this biblically.

 

[ewq1938]

I shared Scripture that details how saints were beheaded for their witness during the Great Commission, which spans from Pentecost to the Second Coming, represented by a thousand years.

The mark of the beast did not exist in their time. The beheaded saints of Rev 20 were killed during the trib where the beast issues the MoB. They also refused to worship the beast or the image of the beast, also things that can only exist during the future trib.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The mark of the beast did not exist in their time. The beheaded saints of Rev 20 were killed during the trib where the beast issues the MoB. They also refused to worship the beast or the image of the beast, also things that can only exist during the future trib.

I understand and know where you come from on this. The problem is the mark of the beast is not "end-time phenomenon. The mark of the beast has been since Cain. To receive a mark simple illustrate a spiritual branding or etching upon as a sign of ownership by Satan. For example, as you name is signed on a deed illustrating that you own the land. Or as a rancher might brand a cow with his unique name to illustrate that the cow belonged to that particular rancher.
Revelation 20 speaks about the whole Church age where Christians have refused to receive the mark of the beast now that they have been regenerated or saved. It occurs all over the world as the church expands.

Rev 13:15-17
(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In Revelation 13 above, AFTER the Church (millennial kingdom) has been built, and she has grown more apostasy. God has removed his protection (restraining) hand from the church and has agreed to allow the second beast in Revelation 13, which symbolizes the false prophets and ministers, to come INTO the unfaithful CHURCH to deceive the people of the church. They will force everyone IN THE CHURCH to believe a lie and receive the mark of the beast like the rest of the world. During that time, any Christians who have refused to receive the mark of the beast or worship its images (false doctrines) will be killed. Not physically killed, but their truthful witnesses has been silenced because no one want to hear it anymore because the truth torments them. (ie. Christians do not want to hear that homosexuality is wrong, or allowing women to teach is wrong, etc.). Those who are deceived and receive the mark, they will be able to buy and sell. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with economics, it has to do with carnality and spirituality of the Devil. They are deceived by false prophets to serve other gods instead the God of the Bible in the House of the Lord, make evil merchandise of the church. With Two Witnesses being killed (testimony of truth silenced), professed believers of the congregation will no longer buy our merchandise of truth anymore. They will only buy and sell whatever comes out of the mouth of the false prophets.

Rev 18:10-11
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
(11) And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

That is the picture of church falling prior to the Second Coming. So the mark of the beast did not start with the fall of the church. It started long ago in the world, but after the Cross, God has protected the woman (church) during her testimony of salvation (for the thousand years/millennial kingdom) UNTIL all Elect has been secured, THEN God will ALLOW the beast (false prophets and christs) to come into church to test her faithfulness where everyone who has NOT YET SEALED by God (Revelation 9) WILL receive the mark of the beast and buy and sell the false doctrines in the House of God - all over the world. It is to ensure that they still belongs to Satan even if they still going to church to seek salvation but cannot find it anymore.

Therefore, no such thing as 7 years of tribulation where you believe the mark of the beast is something you need to buy food to live or have your head cut off.

@WPM @rwb @Spiritual Israelite

 

[ewq1938]

I understand and know where you come from on this. The problem is the mark of the beast is not "end-time phenomenon. The mark of the beast has been since Cain.

Not according to Rev 13, where the second beast issues the mark. It does not exist before that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What did it say right before that

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

I saw thrones . . .
Here, the Apostle John speaks about the inauguration of Jesus's promise to the twelve that they would rule on twelve thrones over the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30)

I saw the souls . . . beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus . . .
The apostle John sees the souls of dead evangelists and prophets as Jesus predicted. (Matthew 23:34)

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years . . .
The apostle John sees the dead witnesses of Christ "come to life" referring to a resurrection from the dead. Once risen from the dead, they rule with him for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead . . .
Only a limited number of people are resurrected. They rise from the dead later.

This is the first resurrection . . .
John refers to the resurrection of the apostles, prophets and all those who were witnesses of Jesus and the gospel he preached.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Both I think. Paul definitely speaks of it in terms of re-animation:

Eph 2: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

In this context, "dead" and "quickened" are figurative language, speaking about our being freed from our condemnation to death. We were "dead in sin", i.e. condemned to die, but then we were "quickened", i.e. sentenced to life.

 

[CadyandZoe]

V6 does not relate partaking in the first resurrection to just martyrs. It relates it to all the redeemed.

Verse 6 refers to the souls who came back to life in verse 4.

 

[Marty fox]

I saw thrones . . .
Here, the Apostle John speaks about the inauguration of Jesus's promise to the twelve that they would rule on twelve thrones over the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30)

I saw the souls . . . beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus . . .
The apostle John sees the souls of dead evangelists and prophets as Jesus predicted. (Matthew 23:34)

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years . . .
The apostle John sees the dead witnesses of Christ "come to life" referring to a resurrection from the dead. Once risen from the dead, they rule with him for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead . . .
Only a limited number of people are resurrected. They rise from the dead later.

This is the first resurrection . . .
John refers to the resurrection of the apostles, prophets and all those who were witnesses of Jesus and the gospel he preached.

Except that none of the 12 disciples were recorded as being beheaded

 

[CadyandZoe]

Except that none of the 12 disciples were recorded as being beheaded

Why does that matter?