Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[Wick Stick]

In this context, "dead" and "quickened" are figurative language, speaking about our being freed from our condemnation to death. We were "dead in sin", i.e. condemned to die, but then we were "quickened", i.e. sentenced to life.

Agreed - it is figurative in Eph 2. I do not see much talk about condemnation in the chapter, but it does about the Ephesians being "dead" before they were adopted. Note the language further down the chapter - without Christ, aliens, strangers, and far off:

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (verses 11-13)

Using dead as a metaphor this way is similar to what Jesus says in Matthew 8:

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

 

[Marty fox]

Why does that matter?

Because the verse says that they were beheaded. Isn't it supposed to be literal?

 

[Wick Stick]

Because the verse says that they were beheaded. Isn't it supposed to be literal?

General rule of thumb for determining what is literal in Revelation -

If he is "showed," then it needs interpretation.
If he is "told," it is literal.

 

[Davidpt]

Because the verse says that they were beheaded. Isn't it supposed to be literal?

The way to maybe look at it might be like such. If one is literally beheaded what would that mean? It means their voice has been silenced. Therefore, in some cases it is meaning to literally be beheaded since some saints have been literally beheaded. In other cases it is meaning to be martyred in general, because when one is martyred, regardless which manner they are killed, their voice is obviously silenced when they are martyred.

The way some Amils interpret this in verse 4, makes light of the fact that some saints have been martyred in the most inhumane manner, thus some Amils are dishonoring them by insisting verse 4 is not even meaning martyring in a literal sense. Try telling that to saints that were literally martyred though, that they weren't martyred in a literal sense. But let's just call this martyring in verse 4 spiritual martyring or whatever, thus no one is actually tortured and literally killed or anything like that. God forbid verse 4 could be pertaining to the literal martyring of anyone.

 

[Davidpt]

General rule of thumb for determining what is literal in Revelation -

If he is "showed," then it needs interpretation.
If he is "told," it is literal.

Can't say I have ever heard of that general rule of thumb. I don't even know what you meaning here by 'told' and 'showed'?

 

[Davidpt]

You seem not to even notice that the witch was able to speak to the spirit of Samuel after he had physically died? How could that be possible unless the spirit of Samuel lived on after his body had breathed its last?

Currently I don't believe in soul sleep. Therefore, your point is moot in my case. Obviously, when Samuel died he lived on in disembodied state somewhere But not in heaven since that wouldn't be possible until Christ died and rose first. Even so, Samuel still lived on in a disembodied state somewhere. Probably somewhere within the earth below it's surface. But it wouldn't be in a place of torment, in his case.

 

[Marty fox]

The way to maybe look at it might be like such. If one is literally beheaded what would that mean? It means their voice has been silenced. Therefore, in some cases it is meaning to literally be beheaded since some saints have been literally beheaded. In other cases it is meaning to be martyred in general, because when one is martyred, regardless which manner they are killed, their voice is obviously silenced when they are martyred.

The way some Amils interpret this in verse 4, makes light of the fact that some saints have been martyred in the most inhumane manner, thus some Amils are dishonoring them by insisting verse 4 is not even meaning martyring in a literal sense. Try telling that to saints that were literally martyred though, that they weren't martyred in a literal sense. But let's just call this martyring in verse 4 spiritual martyring or whatever, thus no one is actually tortured and literally killed or anything like that. God forbid verse 4 could be pertaining to the literal martyring of anyone.

Of course they were literally martyred I have never heard of any amill or any futurist ever saying that these saints weren't martyred.

My point is that futurist believe in a literal interpretation until its not convenient

 

[ewq1938]

I saw thrones . . .
Here, the Apostle John speaks about the inauguration of Jesus's promise to the twelve that they would rule on twelve thrones over the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30)

I saw the souls . . . beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus . . .
The apostle John sees the souls of dead evangelists and prophets as Jesus predicted. (Matthew 23:34)

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years . . .
The apostle John sees the dead witnesses of Christ "come to life" referring to a resurrection from the dead. Once risen from the dead, they rule with him for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead . . .
Only a limited number of people are resurrected. They rise from the dead later.

This is the first resurrection . . .
John refers to the resurrection of the apostles, prophets and all those who were witnesses of Jesus and the gospel he preached.

You left out important info:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


This limits the timeframe to the 42 months of the trib, Rev 13. The beheaded people John saw being resurrected died in those 42 months because they did not worship the beast, the image, and didn't take the mark. They had their heads cut off as well, not dying from other methods.

 

[ewq1938]

Of course they were literally martyred I have never heard of any amill or any futurist ever saying that these saints weren't martyred.

My point is that futurist believe in a literal interpretation until its not convenient

Better than being a Preterist and believing in a symbolic interpretation, convenient or not.

 

[ewq1938]

General rule of thumb for determining what is literal in Revelation -

If he is "showed," then it needs interpretation.
If he is "told," it is literal.

Does that hold up in the Greek manuscripts? "told" isn't even in Rev.

 

[Marty fox]

Better than being a Preterist and believing in a symbolic interpretation, convenient or not.

Partial not full LOL

 

[ewq1938]

Partial not full LOL

Of course as Amill is partial Preterist and there are zero full Preterists in Amill that I know of.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not according to Rev 13, where the second beast issues the mark. It does not exist before that.

Really? Okay, tell me what do you believe the mark is? A physical mark or a spiritual mark?

Of course as Amill is partial Preterist and there are zero full Preterists in Amill that I know of.

I am a pure Historic Amillennialist. I am against ANY Preterist doctrines.

 

[Davidpt]

Of course they were literally martyred I have never heard of any amill or any futurist ever saying that these saints weren't martyred.

My point is that futurist believe in a literal interpretation until its not convenient

Can't apply any of the following only to the first century, now can we? Yet you insist futurists have to change the goal post even though there are actually real cases where Christians are literally being beheaded in our day and time.

-------------------------
The beheadings were described as "barbaric" by al-Azhar, the highly regarded theological institution which is based in Egypt.

Islamic State: Egyptian Christians held in Libya 'killed'

A video emerges purportedly showing the beheadings of 21 Egyptian Christians who had been seized by Islamic State in Libya.

www.bbc.com

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[Wick Stick]

Does that hold up in the Greek manuscripts? "told" isn't even in Rev.

It's not a hard and fast rule, just a rule of thumb, but... yeah... it mostly does...

Seeing/Showing words: εἴδω, βλέπω, ὅρασις
Hearing/Saying words: ἀκούω, φωνή, λαλέω

 

[Davidpt]

I am a pure Historic Amillennialist. I am against ANY Preterist doctrines.

You don't seem to be in good company per this thread then. Pretty much all these Amils posting in this thread are pro-preterists to some degree rather than anti like you.

 

[Marty fox]

Can't apply any of the following only to the first century, now can we? Yet you insist futurists have to change the goal post even though there are actually real cases where Christians are literally being beheaded in our day and time.

-------------------------
The beheadings were described as "barbaric" by al-Azhar, the highly regarded theological institution which is based in Egypt.

Islamic State: Egyptian Christians held in Libya 'killed'

A video emerges purportedly showing the beheadings of 21 Egyptian Christians who had been seized by Islamic State in Libya.

www.bbc.com

----------------------------------

Of course, there are saints being beheaded today I have no idea why you are even saying this what's your point as I have never denied that?

My point was none of the 12 disciples were beheaded and that poster was saying that the ones in Revelation 20:4 were the 12 disciples

 

[TribulationSigns]

You don't seem to be in good company per this thread then. Pretty much all these Amils posting in this thread are pro-preterists to some degree rather than anti like you.

So...and?

BTW, do you have a problem answering the following question?

Not according to Rev 13, where the second beast issues the mark. It does not exist before that.

Really? Okay, tell me what do you believe the mark is? A physical mark or a spiritual mark?

 

[Davidpt]

My point was none of the 12 disciples were beheaded and that poster was saying that the ones in Revelation 20:4 were the 12 disciples

My point would be, none of that matters whether that person was correct or incorrect about the 12 disciples, since it doesn't change the fact that being beheaded can mean in the literal sense in some cases. Maybe not in all cases, though. Maybe in some cases being beheaded is simply another way to express being martyred in general? Why isn't that possible, that it can mean literally be beheaded, and that it can also mean to be literally martyred but not by means of being literally beheaded where someone's head is chopped off? Maybe they are martyred in a different manner, such as being shot to death, for example? And that this falls under the category of being beheaded, meaning, to be martyred?

 

[Davidpt]

BTW, do you have a problem answering the following question?



Really? Okay, tell me what do you believe the mark is? A physical mark or a spiritual mark?

Even if the mark is something spiritual rather than a literal mark, what does that have to with anything? Regardless what it looks like to do the following, until one beast rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, there is no mark to take or refuse to take in the meantime. No one could possibly think the 42 months meant in Revelation 13:5 is meaning 6000 years or more of earth history. Even if it's not meaning a literal 42 months, it certainly can't be meaning 6000 years or more. Nor can it be paralleling the thousand years, assuming the thousand years are supposedly meaning the here and now. Even if the thousand years could somehow be pertaining to the here and now, common sense says that this 42 months would follow the thousand years not equal the thousand years.