For those who think Christ is not God.

[marks]

And what do you think Satan is? have you so quickly forgotten Matthew 13:13?

That's a fairly open question, maybe quicker just to say what you have on your mind.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes that's the point being made. If Christ shared this Glory with God before the world was and its also said we did then how do you discern the difference - or do you just say its your preference to pick and choose?

You seem to be basing your reasoning here on your previous statement,

ou that. If Christ has become His glory and His Glory has always been and if we are also to share in that glory then its obvious to all that we shared this Glory also b

Scripture please.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

The disciples also did miracles—they weren't God.

I'd say bringing someone back to life is wa-a-a-a-a-ay cooler than walking on the water.

This is what happens in these arguments about the Godhead.

It's exactly what Paul warned about.

Not everything that's true is worth contending for.

 

[BarneyFife]

?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus IS God. He is the Word and was in at the beginning. He spoke the word and it was created.

John 1:1-4
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

So how do people argue against that?

A deceptive spirit will argue against anything...

 

[Pearl]

A deceptive spirit will argue against anything...

The sky is blue with white clouds.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Isaiah 9:6
[6]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[face2face]

Or they could be of the mind that Christ was 100% man and 100% God. I've heard that a lot. I don't claim to understand it, but:

Matthew 19:26 KJV: But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Doubtless, some will say this is taken out of context but, honestly, can a phrase like "with God all things are possible" ever really be taken out of context?

I think you just did ;)

 

[face2face]

That's a fairly open question, maybe quicker just to say what you have on your mind.

Much love!

Well an adversary can be many things can it not?

 

[face2face]

Scripture please.
Much love!

You have asked for a Scripture which states we also shared in God's Glory before the world was.
Romans 9:23 / 2 Timothy 1:9
Ephesians 1:4 tells us God choose us in Christ before the world was (using your reasoning we too pre-existed).

Its all the same language, the problem is how you approach these passages with preconceived ideas in mind. I understand neither Christ or us, were in existence back then, however God had us all in mind to exist at some point in time. I could try and force our pre-existence on the text but that would be as futile as me forcing Christs pre-exitence on John 17:5, just wont work.

Romans 4:17 is the key both in God being able to speak of the future and Christ being able to comprehend how God's glory, which he would become, has always been with the Father.

John 17:5 in its truthfulness is actually far deeper than you can make it by forcing a pre-extistent Christ. It's actually rather profound to think Christ can see a oneness with his Creator throughout all time, knowing what his Father is about to do to him through the cross. The gravity of his Glorification far surpasses your belief and makes the Christ & God truly worthy of praise. This way God's righteousness is upheld in a man who was 100% flesh and blood and tempted with the potential to sin as we can, yet resisted unto death.

Peace.

 

[Pearl]

Isaiah 9:6
[6]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

That's the one I like to show Jesus as God.

 

[marks]

I think you just did ;)

No, it's a general statement. It does not become untrue when isolated from it's surrounding context.

It's like saying, If you don't take an umbrella you'll get wet, because rain is wet. See, rain is wet whether or not you take an umbrella. It's like that. With man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

Denying the veracity of the Scriptures comes with a wink from you, which is revealing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You have asked for a Scripture which states we also shared in God's Glory before the world was.
Romans 9:23 / 2 Timothy 1:9
Ephesians 1:4 tells us God choose us in Christ before the world was (using your reasoning we too pre-existed).

I think the question is, do these passages make comparable statements to the one presented?

John 17:5 KJV
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Compare to:

Romans 9:23 KJV
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2 Timothy 1:9 KJV
9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 1:4 KJV
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Romans 4:17 KJV
17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Jesus claimed to have had glory shared with the Father before the world existed.

Two of the passages you've posted make statements related to "before the world". God chose us in Christ, and gave us grace.

A notable difference is that these are acts done by God Himself, and we are not mentioned as participants. Jesus is. It's not the same thing.

John 17:5 in its truthfulness is actually far deeper than you can make it by forcing a pre-extistent Christ. It's actually rather profound to think Christ can see a oneness with his Creator throughout all time, knowing what his Father is about to do to him through the cross.

I find it rather profound knowing that my Creator Himself in love came to rescue me.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

You have asked for a Scripture which states we also shared in God's Glory before the world was.
Romans 9:23 / 2 Timothy 1:9
Ephesians 1:4 tells us God choose us in Christ before the world was (using your reasoning we too pre-existed).

Its all the same language, the problem is how you approach these passages with preconceived ideas in mind.

I must admit, I have a very well-established preconceived idea that before I was born, I didn't exist. I knew a popular preacher at one time who used to say: "Try not to be so open-minded that your brain falls out!"

I think you just did ;)

;), indeed.

 

[face2face]

No, it's a general statement. It does not become untrue when isolated from it's surrounding context.

It's like saying, If you don't take an umbrella you'll get wet, because rain is wet. See, rain is wet whether or not you take an umbrella. It's like that. With man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

Denying the veracity of the Scriptures comes with a wink from you, which is revealing.

Much love!

What do I do with this Marks? What does your umbrella analogy have to do with Christ pre-existing? (wink replaced with a head shake)

 

[face2face]

I must admit, I have a very well-established preconceived idea that before I was born, I didn't exist. I knew a popular preacher at one time who used to say: "Try not to be so open-minded that your brain falls out!"

;), indeed.

Admit away Qoheleth! I also believe the same - we were born and that Christ is the firstborn among us. Embrace the truth and try not to run from it. Brains are firmly intact for now.

 

[face2face]

I find it rather profound knowing that my Creator Himself in love came to rescue me.

Much love!

He did...He raised up an obedient Son. Luke 2:52 (God doesn't grow in wisdom...He is Wisdom!)

I'm still liking my God over yours - best Father there is - the Christ is proof of that!

 

[BarneyFife]

Admit away Qoheleth! I also believe the same - we were born and that Christ is the firstborn among us. Embrace the truth and try not to run from it. Brains are firmly intact for now.

Fear not--I'm an embracer from way back.

 

[marks]

What do I do with this Marks? What does your umbrella analogy have to do with Christ pre-existing? (wink replaced with a head shake)

It's the type of statement being made. Jesus said that this is possible by saying all things are possible, and the greater takes in the lesser, the greater is not limited by the lesser.

The foundational truth here is that with God, all things are possible, and this supercedes the fact that with man, it's impossible. The impossibility for man does not negate that nothing is impossible for God.

Does that help?

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

He did...He raised up an obedient Son. Luke 2:52 (God doesn't grow in wisdom...He is Wisdom!)

I'm still liking my God over yours - best Father there is - the Christ is proof of that!

Precisely, never had an oz of hatred just like Dad.