For those who think Christ is not God.

[Brakelite]

Jesus is not an angel Brakelite.

He's not the Lord's messenger? The Word of God?

 

[face2face]

Mmm. Except that's nothing to suggest in scripture that Gabriel is an archangel. How many heads do they need?

It's an interesting subject and its commonly understand that Michael was the archangel who lead and protected Israel whereas Gabriel due to his involvement in and around the Lords birth was Jesus' protector. This fits the record and no gymnastics is required ;)

 

[face2face]

Be careful @Brakelite referring to an angel as the Word of God - he might utter his Lord's Words but only one man / being every became The Word.

You are correct all angels are God's messengers who only ever do his pleasure Psalms 103:21

 

[face2face]

Mmm. Except that's nothing to suggest in scripture that Gabriel is an archangel. How many heads do they need?

Yeah its Christian tradition to suggest Gabriel is an archangel. Whoever he is God saw it essential for him to be involved in the New Covenant whereas Michael relates to the old. I'm not dogmatic on this.

 

[Waiting on him]

Brought forth of the Father... Begotten... Before creation, before time... In eternity. A Son brought forth from God and then empowered and authorized to become the Creator of all things and then to become human in order to redeem mankind.
Deceptive? Cryptic? Sorry bro, but you're getting the wrong message. And I'm not 'accusing' you of quote: I never said the Son was not created,... I know that, and that's the point. I'm saying the Son was not created, but begotten. Begotten in a way that scripture doesn't explain, but begotten nevertheless.
Not only does the Bible tell us that Christ is begotten of God, but it also says He is the only begotten of God (John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18 and 1 John 4:9 KJV). No one else has ever been begotten of God. Even an angel cannot be said to be a son in this respect. Just as the material things of our world were made out of nothing, so too the angels were made out of nothing (out of things that do not appear – see Hebrews 11:3). This though, cannot be said of Christ. He was begotten (brought forth) of God’s very own substance. He therefore, in His very nature, is truly and fully divine. That much is indisputable. He is not the Father, the Son is a separate independent individual being, but in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 1:19, 2:9). This is where I part from the traditional understanding of the trinity as taught in the creeds. Yet God is one. How that unity between the Father and Son exists, we are not told.
All things, including the angels, were created through (by) Christ. KJV 1 Corinthians 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

KJV Colossians 1:14-16
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

KJV Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Christ, in His pre-existence, was not part of God’s creation. He is of the Godhead.

1 Peter 1:3 KJV
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Seems as if Peter is claiming too have been twice begotten?

 

[APAK]

But when? At the incarnation as APAK and others maintain, or before creation, before time... In eternity?

A miracle yes I'm the enabling of Sarah's womb to conceive, but no reason why the mechanics were any different than normal?

Will you stop your lying about what I have said and meant Bro..what has gotten into you lately...Get this straight I not a believe in your incarnation pagan religion period. So stop saying I do. You are getting to be a very distraught (IMO) and a confusing person lately...why?!

 

[Johann]

This first chapter of Hebrews is tells us that Jesus was ‘much better than the angels’ Hebrews 1:4 higher in rank and authority. The angels were commanded to worship him Hebrews 1:6. The angels are made subject to him 1 Peter 3:22. The angels come with him as his servants Matthew 25:31; Matthew 24:31.

Why would Jesus-angel come down from Heaven with two other angels to carry out these simple tasks?

@Johann the draw on your bow is getting longer!

Jesus and the Angel of YHWH
The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'
Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18

Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)

Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...

Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt

And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'
* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).


Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

And the angel of the Lord found her,.... This is the first time that mention is made of an angel in Scripture, but is not to be understood of a created angel, but of a divine Person, as appears from Gen_16:10, the uncreated angel, the Logos or Son of God, called the Angel of God's presence, and the Angel of the covenant, Isa_63:9 Mal_3:1; who often appeared in an human form before his incarnation, being sent by his divine Father on one account or another; and hence called an angel, a messenger, or one sent, as in the fulness of time he was sent in human nature to be the Redeemer of his people; though many of the Jewish writers take this angel to be a man sent of God. Gersom (n) says he was one of the prophets that lived in those times, and observes, that some of their Rabbins say (o) he was Shem, the son of Noah; and Maimonides (p) suggests, that this angel was but a mere man, by comparing this passage with that in Gen_37:15, "a certain man found him", &c. but the context most clearly confutes this notion, and proves him to be the almighty and omniscient God; since he promises to do what none but the omnipotent Being could do, and declares such things as none but the omniscient God could know: and when it is said he "found Hagar", it is not to be understood as if it was a chance matter, or the fruit and effect of search and inquiry, or as if he had not seen her before; but rather it shows that his eye was upon her, and he had a concern for her, and at a proper time and place appeared to her at once, and unawares, and unthought of by her.

You should study the morphology of both the Hebrew and Greek text.
J.

 

[Waiting on him]

Jesus and the Angel of YHWH
The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'
Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18

Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)

Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...

Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt

And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'
* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).


Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

And the angel of the Lord found her,.... This is the first time that mention is made of an angel in Scripture, but is not to be understood of a created angel, but of a divine Person, as appears from Gen_16:10, the uncreated angel, the Logos or Son of God, called the Angel of God's presence, and the Angel of the covenant, Isa_63:9 Mal_3:1; who often appeared in an human form before his incarnation, being sent by his divine Father on one account or another; and hence called an angel, a messenger, or one sent, as in the fulness of time he was sent in human nature to be the Redeemer of his people; though many of the Jewish writers take this angel to be a man sent of God. Gersom (n) says he was one of the prophets that lived in those times, and observes, that some of their Rabbins say (o) he was Shem, the son of Noah; and Maimonides (p) suggests, that this angel was but a mere man, by comparing this passage with that in Gen_37:15, "a certain man found him", &c. but the context most clearly confutes this notion, and proves him to be the almighty and omniscient God; since he promises to do what none but the omnipotent Being could do, and declares such things as none but the omniscient God could know: and when it is said he "found Hagar", it is not to be understood as if it was a chance matter, or the fruit and effect of search and inquiry, or as if he had not seen her before; but rather it shows that his eye was upon her, and he had a concern for her, and at a proper time and place appeared to her at once, and unawares, and unthought of by her.

You should study the morphology of both the Hebrew and Greek text.
J.

Get real, John is commanded to write epistles too the Angels in the first two chapters of revelation.

the angels are ministering spirits per New Testament scripture.

 

[Waiting on him]

Hebrews 1:13-14 KJV
[13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? [14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[Waiting on him]

Hebrews 13:2 KJV
[2] Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
I hope it’s beginning to come into focus.

 

[Johann]

This first chapter of Hebrews is tells us that Jesus was ‘much better than the angels’ Hebrews 1:4 higher in rank and authority. The angels were commanded to worship him Hebrews 1:6. The angels are made subject to him 1 Peter 3:22. The angels come with him as his servants Matthew 25:31; Matthew 24:31.

Why would Jesus-angel come down from Heaven with two other angels to carry out these simple tasks?

@Johann the draw on your bow is getting longer!

You need to "catch on" Think East, not West.
J.

 

[APAK]

Brought forth of the Father... Begotten... Before creation, before time... In eternity. A Son brought forth from God and then empowered and authorized to become the Creator of all things and then to become human in order to redeem mankind.
Deceptive? Cryptic? Sorry bro, but you're getting the wrong message. And I'm not 'accusing' you of quote: I never said the Son was not created,... I know that, and that's the point. I'm saying the Son was not created, but begotten. Begotten in a way that scripture doesn't explain, but begotten nevertheless.
Not only does the Bible tell us that Christ is begotten of God, but it also says He is the only begotten of God (John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18 and 1 John 4:9 KJV). No one else has ever been begotten of God. Even an angel cannot be said to be a son in this respect. Just as the material things of our world were made out of nothing, so too the angels were made out of nothing (out of things that do not appear – see Hebrews 11:3). This though, cannot be said of Christ. He was begotten (brought forth) of God’s very own substance. He therefore, in His very nature, is truly and fully divine. That much is indisputable. He is not the Father, the Son is a separate independent individual being, but in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 1:19, 2:9). This is where I part from the traditional understanding of the trinity as taught in the creeds. Yet God is one. How that unity between the Father and Son exists, we are not told.
All things, including the angels, were created through (by) Christ. KJV 1 Corinthians 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

KJV Colossians 1:14-16
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

KJV Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Christ, in His pre-existence, was not part of God’s creation. He is of the Godhead.

I already cannot understand your opening words in your post, and your last two statements I truly believe you cannot even understand.
//
I take it then you will stop speaking for me in your future posts. You have already said I do not believe that Christ was created, and that I believe in your pagan vile incarnation. I would appreciate it if you cease these actions immediately.

I know what I believe in these subjects and I do not need anyone adding to them. Let me list the main ones again for you and then paste them on your frig so you do not get confused anymore.

I clearly and categorically :

0. Do not believe in the pagan Trinity in any way shape or form. No God the son, No God the HS. Only God the Father and his own HS.

1. Do not believe in the pre-existence of Yahshua before his Father made or created him and he was begotten or born the natural human way in the womb his mother.

2. Do not believe in the pagan concept of incarnation where at least one of the Trinity members or in any combination transformed themselves as possibly the male DNA(sperm) or in any other far-fetched way to cause Mary to fertilize her egg, and conceive not a human being as I believe, but as you believe gave birth to a abominable creature, a god-divine human child. It was the Father through his own HS that caused Mary to become pregnant period, per scripture

3. Do not believe in a pagan god-man hypostatic union of Christ having both a divine and human natures whilst on earth.

4. Do not believe in Kenosis, a pagan spiritual mystical concept whereby Christ at some unknown and unimaginable time rid himself of his so-called divine nature whilst on earth. And then after this impossible feat, he must have possessed ONLY a single human nature by deduction!

5. I do believe in one God the Father only, and his oneness with his own holy or sacred Spirit that created all, including his Son and even Abraham's son, Isaac - of course in quite different and unique ways.

6. I do believe in Christ, as the 2nd Adam, as the human Messiah for his God, the Father.

That's it for starters and there is more of course..............

Do you need a magnet for your frig? Let me mail one to you with my initials engraved on it...or I can mail one to a relative that does live in Melbourne of OZ and personally give it to you.

 

[Johann]

You need to "catch on" Think East, not West.
J.

Dr Michael Brown and Mike Winger...

Praise my Father in heaven through Christ Jesus my Lord I am not blinded by 'Churchianity'
J.

 

[Johann]

I knew I had, heck I have no idea what a gnostic is, sounds like some kind of gothic thing. Jehovah is the God of Jesus Joe, He is the one Jesus instructed his disciples to worship and serve exclusively, so being one of Jesus' disciples, I obey. Mat 4:10; 22:37

You need to read the Bible and not what JW' teach you.
J.

 

[Johann]

This first chapter of Hebrews is tells us that Jesus was ‘much better than the angels’ Hebrews 1:4 higher in rank and authority. The angels were commanded to worship him Hebrews 1:6. The angels are made subject to him 1 Peter 3:22. The angels come with him as his servants Matthew 25:31; Matthew 24:31.

Why would Jesus-angel come down from Heaven with two other angels to carry out these simple tasks?

@Johann the draw on your bow is getting longer!

As to "Begotten Huios.."

Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

Get real, John is commanded to write epistles too the Angels in the first two chapters of revelation.

the angels are ministering spirits per New Testament scripture.

Get rid of deeply ingrained preconceived ideologies,
J.

 

[Johann]

Please may everyone read the following carefully and ask yourself, who is soaking here...
KJV Genesis 22:1-2,
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

This is God speaking right? Can there be any doubt? It is the LORD. It is God putting Abraham to the test. Now, who is speaking here...

11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

It's clear is it not. The angel of the LORD. A messenger. There is no need to conjecture regarding the nature of the angel, as far as this announcement is concerned, the word angel simply denotes messenger, nothing more, nothing less. The following however provides something far more by way of identifying the nature and stature of this messenger/angel...

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me.

J.

 

[Johann]

J.

 

[Pearl]

The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.

The appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament after the birth of Christ.

It is possible that appearances of the angel of the Lord were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation. Jesus declared Himself to be existent “before Abraham” (John 8:58), so it is logical that He would be active and manifest in the world. Whatever the case, whether the angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ (Christophany) or an appearance of God the Father (theophany), it is highly likely that the phrase “the angel of the Lord” usually identifies a physical appearance of God.

 

[Johann]

The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.

The appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament after the birth of Christ.

It is possible that appearances of the angel of the Lord were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation. Jesus declared Himself to be existent “before Abraham” (John 8:58), so it is logical that He would be active and manifest in the world. Whatever the case, whether the angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ (Christophany) or an appearance of God the Father (theophany), it is highly likely that the phrase “the angel of the Lord” usually identifies a physical appearance of God.

Well done, and who is the 'arm' of the Lord and the 'rock' that followed the Isrealites in the wilderness..

Excellent Pearl
J.