For those who think Christ is not God.

[Johann]

@Johann Important passage; the Lord Jesus truly is equal with God.

Amen my brother in Christ.
Shalom to you and precious family.
J.

 

[Johann]

Therefore the Last Adam, a new humanity. Not part of Adam's progeny. Uncorrupted, and as He is God Himself, incorruptible, fully man, and truly fully God.

Much love!

Stay strong in Christ Jesus brother.
J.

 

[APAK]

I don't know enough about Hebrew to know this for myself, however, I've been told that this can also be understood as "father of the eternal", do you know anything about that?

But that's the question for you too! How can Jesus be both Father and Son? For unto us a child is born, unto us Son is given, and His Name shall be called . . . the everlasting Father . . .

The Son is in fact here called the Father, if this translation is faithful to the original writer, so, how can that be?

He who has seen me has seen the Father, declared the Son.

How is it that Isaiah declares the Word of God that there is one savior, YHWH, and none other, yet we read that there is One Name given by which men must be saved, Jesus.

YHWH - the LORD - declared to Isaiah that ever knee would bow to Him, salvation in Him alone, as Paul wrote that every knee would bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - should that read, that Jesus Christ is LORD? Yes, I think so!

I mean seriously! What was Paul thinking? Quoting that passage, and applying it to Jesus, that Jesus Christ is LORD, can you imagine him writing those words if that were NOT what he meant? Don't you think he would have considered it blasphemy? Just like the Pharisees who wanted to stone Jesus. Not for any good work, but because you, a man, make yourself out to be God!!

Much love!

Well marks and to @Pearl, he, Jesus Christ is actually not both the Father and the Son. Blame it on inaccurate translation and then vague or misleading commentaries on the issue. Not my doing....

Where in scripture had Jesus been called the everlasting Father? Nowhere. I would think that Trinitarians at least would be weary of saying Jesus was any kind of a Father, because their God is composed of the Father and the Son at least, and they can never be the same person - they stay in their own lanes I would think according to its proponents of this doctrine.

‘Everlasting Father’ in Isaiah 9:6 should be translated as the eternal father, of the future ages to come since his ascension into heaven. Jesus became the key agent of eternal life. Jesus replaced the original and temporal father, also a Son of God, as he, the 1st Adam, returned to the ‘dust.’ Jesus purchased sinful mankind and became their new permanent father of future ages as the 2nd and last Adam. He became immortal and the gateway for all other to enter in.

Jesus fathered the new creation of believers from mankind. He created the mechanism for it. He became the father of it, this human process from human death to salvation and immortality. He became the Father everlasting, the first and the last or the only one as spoke of in the Book of Revelation and only in this context. Jesus was the founder, and he is the father of new believers. He was the first of the new creation of human beings given immortality. He was the author of life for all men.

I guess I've stomped on my point sufficiently as it has now become blunt...;)

 

[Pearl]

Well marks and to @Pearl, he, Jesus Christ is actually not both the Father and the Son.

Well @APAK I never said he was but they are both God as is the Holy Spirit. You see, three parts of the same person. But perhaps that is too difficult for you to understand. Perhaps you could ask God to show you.

 

[farouk]

Well @APAK I never said he was but they are both God as is the Holy Spirit. You see, three parts of the same person. But perhaps that is too difficult for you to understand. Perhaps you could ask God to show you.

@Pearl God in Three Persons is so clear from Scripture: end of Matthew 28; John 1.1-18; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.

 

[Pearl]

@Pearl God in Three Persons is so clear from Scripture: end of Matthew 28; John 1.1-18; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.

I think some people who have been wrongly taught are afraid of believing anything else. To me and you and many others it;s as clear as day.

 

[APAK]

Well @APAK I never said he was but they are both God as is the Holy Spirit. You see, three parts of the same person. But perhaps that is too difficult for you to understand. Perhaps you could ask God to show you.

Well Pearl that is all nice, although you are not addressing the subject at hand that suggests that the Father and Son are the same. I hope you have been reading along. No I do not understand the Trinity doctrine Pearl. It is incomprehensible and leads me to believe it is not scriptural at all and is pagan in origin.

 

[Pearl]

Well Pearl that is all nice, although you are not addressing the subject at hand that suggests that the Father and Son are the same. I hope you have been reading along. No I do not understand the Trinity doctrine Pearl. It is incomprehensible and leads me to believe it is not scriptural at all and is pagan in origin.

Nobody, as far as I know, has said the Father and the Son are the same BUT we are saying they are both God. But until you are enlightened you will not be able to see it as you have been taught wrongly for so long. Body, mind and spirit. Three separate parts of each person but all the same person. That's what it means to be made in God's image.

 

[Truther]

Can you see how the Scriptures are being "philosophized" away by the reasoning of fallible man @Truther?


Joh 20:28 In reply, T'oma said to Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, Adoni and Elohai! [TEHILLIM 35:23]
Joh 20:29 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach says to him, Because you have seen Me, you have emunah (faith)?
OJB.

Καὶ ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ὁ Κύριός μου.....Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular.... καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.

Note the two Definite Articles

My Lord and my God (Hο κυριος μου κα ο θεος μου). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koine. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.

And so I believe..why don't people accept what stands written, Perfect Tense, and believe?

100 NAMES OF JESUS


J.

I don't speak Greek.

No more carpet bombing the thread with Greek redefinitions.

 

[APAK]

@Pearl God in Three Persons is so clear from Scripture: end of Matthew 28; John 1.1-18; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.

Is that all you can contribute farouk?

I would wager you have not a clue what this broad scripture really says that you have presented here. I would think you might be a little tired of your constant infatuation and zeal for keep waving the Trinity flag and reciting your pledge of allegiance to it. As you state its preamble and definition for this trinity doctrine when a commentary and more detail is required.

 

[APAK]

Nobodym as far as I know have said the Father and the Son are the same BUT we are saying they are both God. But until you are enlightened you will not be able to see it as you have been taught wrongly for so long. Body, mind and spirit. Three separate parts of each person but all the same person.

Pearl you are off....we are talking about a term used in Isaiah 9:6...You can find it so you get on the same page dear. It won't state exactly that the Father is the same as the Son, although it is strongly inferred when Christ is seemingly called the 'everlasting Father.' I cannot help you anymore...

 

[Truther]

Also...

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when he comes into the Olam Hazeh, he says "ZEVACH UMINCHAH LO CHAFATZTA ("sacrifice and offering" Ps 40:7 (6) You did not desire but a body you prepared for me; (Ps 39:7 TARGUM HA-SHIVIM)
OJB.

Heb 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist<..Where was Christ Jesus before the Aorist?..the "point of beginning?"
Voice: Middle<
Mood: Indicative<
Person: second [you]
Number: Singular



But a body hast thou prepared me; or "fitted for me"; a real natural body, which stands for the whole human nature; and is carefully expressed, to show that the human nature is not a person. This was prepared, in the book of God's purposes and decrees, and in the council and covenant of grace; and was curiously formed by the Holy Ghost in time, for the second Person, the Son of God, to clothe himself with, as the Syriac version renders it, "thou hast clothed me with a body"; and that he might dwell in, and in it do the will of God, and perform the work of man's redemption: in Psa_40:6 it is, "mine ears thou hast opened"; digged or bored, the ear being put for the whole body; for if he had not had a body prepared, he could not have had ears opened: besides; the phrase is expressive of Christ's assuming the form of a servant, which was done by his being found in fashion as a man, Php_2:7 and of his being a voluntary servant, and of his cheerful obedience as such, the opening, or boring of the ear, was a sign, Exo_21:5. And thus by having a true body prepared for him, and a willing mind to offer it up, he became fit for sacrifice.
Gill.

J.

.....Commentary bomb to redefine the scripture.

Ick!

 

[Pearl]

Pearl you are off....we are talking about a term used in Isaiah 9:6...You can find it so you get on the same page dear. It won't state exactly that the Father is the same as the Son, although it is strongly inferred when Christ is seemingly called the 'everlasting Father.' I cannot help you anymore...

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6, ESV).

In context, this verse is proclaiming the redemption of Israel and the activities, titles, and blessings of the Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end. One of His titles is “Everlasting Father.”

 

[Truther]

I thought you said Mary's ovum but not man's sperm, wasn't that right?

And if Jesus came from the human line already on the earth, in what way would He be a "last Adam"? He'd be one of Adam's progeny, part of the corrupted humanity.

Do you think of humanity as a collection of individuals, separate, each springing out of the last, or as a single creation which unfolds over the generations?

Much love!

I said Mary's egg cell and a sperm cell that God created to make a biological Jesus.

God knows how to make biological things.

He is doing it right now.

Jesus is an "Adam" because he was created like the first Adam, by God.

If God did not Father him, he could not be called an "Adam".

This is why the "only begotten son of God" statement is emphatically used.

Adam #1 was created of dirt and God's breath.

Adam #2 was made of a sperm cell created in Mary's womb.

They are both physically and personally made by God, therefore son's of God.

 

[Johann]

.....Commentary bomb to redefine the scripture.

Ick!

I really "Feel" for ya


,Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Mat 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Luk 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.


Sacrifice:

Isa 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Jer 6:20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.



Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Gen_3:15; Isa_7:14; Jer_31:22; Mat_1:20-23; Luk_1:35; Joh_1:14; Gal_4:4; 1Ti_3:16; 1Jn_4:2-3; 2Jn_1:7
hast thou prepared:6-8, me: or, thou hast fitted me

Is it still a tapestry or a mystery?
J.

 

[Johann]

I said Mary's egg cell and a sperm cell that God created to make a biological Jesus.

You are in error, maybe accidentally or willfully indicative that you are not reading scriptures, or maybe you are reading but not believing what you read.
J.

 

[Johann]

Jesus is an "Adam" because he was created like the first Adam, by God.

@Truther, maybe you are not seeking after truth?
J.

 

[Johann]

Adam #2 was made of a sperm cell created in Mary's womb.

You need to read the Koine morphology, and do use biblical terminology and try to compare scripture with scripture
Miles Coverdale.
J.

 

[Johann]

They are both physically and personally made by God, therefore son's of God.

I would think start a beginners Hebrew and Koine Greek study, very helpful.
J.

 

[marks]

I said Mary's egg cell and a sperm cell that God created to make a biological Jesus.

God knows how to make biological things.

He is doing it right now.

Jesus is an "Adam" because he was created like the first Adam, by God.

If God did not Father him, he could not be called an "Adam".

This is why the "only begotten son of God" statement is emphatically used.

Adam #1 was created of dirt and God's breath.

Adam #2 was made of a sperm cell created in Mary's womb.

They are both physically and personally made by God, therefore son's of God.

Your idea of the Last Adam seems more like the continuation of the first Adam, sharing the DNA of corrupt humanity.

There is something else, also, that distinguishes these two.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 KJV
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I strongly suggest that you give serious consideration to the implications of your view that Jesus shared in sinful corrupted flesh. This affects how we will understand new birth, and justification, and adoption by God, and so much more.

Much love!