For those who think Christ is not God.

[Johann]

I don't think any JWs or other who don't believe Jesus is God will have read any of my three posts stating that he categorically is God

...can you dig up some scriptures for me re our Lord's pre-existence @Pearl, since there are some here who don't believe that Christ was "before all time..." and, believe it or not, that Jesus was a "created being" and/or a mere emanation of our Father...
Thank you
J.

 

[APAK]

How do you explain these verses then?


Because Jesus Christ is God in the flesh (2 Cor. 5:19), He had no beginning and will have no end. Some
cults teach that Jesus did not exist before He came to earth.

J.

Ok, I reckon you cannot explain any of them and want me to explain them for you.

Start with the first one, 2 Cor 5:19:

2 Cor 5:15-19 (NIV)

15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Your only take away and answer that Christ is God in the flesh based on this scripture is not there or in any other for that matter. I would like to know where you have learned to belief such a ridiculous claim, as your truth.

Verses 18 and 19 explicitly says that God reconciled (restored, restoration) us and the world to himself through Christ, not that God is Christ or visa versa. That is very strange thinking.

Without adding to and into this scripture we can easily see with many other support scripture, that the Son of God was born by his Father with his primary mission as his human agent as the sacrificial lamb. He was used by his Father to restore us to him (His Father).

There is not a hint that God had to, or actually became a man (and he cannot by the way) as Yahshua, in this scripture or any other, to fulfill this mission, Johann. He begot a man child remember that performed these acts for our salvation! Your conclusion is pure Trinity Nirvana Johann, a state of mind that is not scripturally aligned at all.

I believe my glasses are clear and I can read just as you can without seeing something exotic with an outlandish meaning as you conclude and write here. It's astonishing you can draw such a conclusion.

Take that back, you are still wearing the Trinitarian lens I spoke about earlier aren't you? That explains it every time, and I suspect you had them on when you added to your list.

 

[Pearl]

Does the bible support the pre-existence of Jesus?

The biblical argument for the pre-existence of Jesus is certainly multi-faceted. Pre-existence is defined as “existence in a former state or previous to something else.” In the case of Jesus Christ, His pre-existence means that, before He became a man and walked upon the earth, He was already in existence as the second Person of the triune God. The Bible not only explicitly teaches this doctrine but also implies this fact at various points throughout the Gospels and Epistles. In addition, Jesus’ own actions reveal His divine identity and, as a consequence, His pre-existence.

Several places in the New Testament explicitly teach Jesus’ pre-existence. Jesus said, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). This passage alone is sufficient to show that the Scripture supports Jesus’ pre-existence, but it is just one of many such passages. Jesus Himself explicitly taught His own pre-existence (John 3:13; 6:33, 38, 62; 8:23; 16:28). Christ even said that He existed prior to Abraham’s birth (John 8:58–59) even though Abraham’s birth preceded Jesus’ own birth by many centuries! Several texts present Jesus as pre-existing with His Father (Romans 8:3; 1 John 1:2; Galatians 4:4). Several passages even identify Jesus as the Creator (John 1:2–3; Colossians 1:16–17; Hebrews 1:2).

Probably the most powerful evidence for the pre-existence of Christ was the very behavior of Jesus Himself. He was often doing and saying things that only the God of Israel had the right or power to do. Jesus’ healing of the paralytic in Mark 2 was done to demonstrate His authority and His ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:3–12). Jesus’ Jewish audience was well aware that such actions were reserved only for Yahweh. Jesus’ actions in Luke 7 drew a similar reaction (Luke 7:48–50).

That Jesus pre-existed in His divinity is further proven by His being the object of worship repeatedly in the Gospels (Matthew 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28). Never did Jesus reject such adoration. He saw such worship as entirely appropriate. Jesus implied that He had authority over the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) as well as the authority to abolish the Law (Ephesians 2:14–15). Such behavior is sheer blasphemy coming from anyone short of a divine (and therefore pre-existent) Person.

In addition, Jesus identified Himself as the divine Son of Man (Mark 14:61–64) and claimed to be able to raise Himself from the dead (John 10:17–18)! This turned out to be the very miracle that He claimed would authenticate His radical claims and ministry (Matthew 12:38–40;16:1–4). Jesus accomplished this grand miracle and gave convincing proof of it (Luke 24:36–43; John 20:26; 21:1-14; Acts 1:3–6). This miracle established Jesus’ claim to deity and thus provides further confirmation of His pre-existence.

 

[Johann]

That explains it every time, and I suspect you had them on when you added to your list.

Take that back, you are still wearing the Trinitarian lens I spoke about earlier aren't you?

Not taking anything back.
J.

 

[Pearl]

He is the Alpha and Omega - the beginning and the end.

Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the “Alpha and Omega” in Revelation 1:8; 21:6; and 22:13. Alpha and omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Among the Jewish rabbis, it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end. Jesus as the beginning and end of all things is a reference to no one but the true God. This statement of eternality could apply only to God. It is seen especially in Revelation 22:13, where Jesus proclaims that He is “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

One of the meanings of Jesus being the “Alpha and Omega” is that He was at the beginning of all things and will be at the close. It is equivalent to saying He always existed and always will exist. It was Christ, as second Person of the Trinity, who brought about the creation: “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:3), and His Second Coming will be the beginning of the end of creation as we know it (2 Peter 3:10). As God incarnate, He has no beginning, nor will He have any end with respect to time, being from everlasting to everlasting.

A second meaning of Jesus as the “Alpha and Omega” is that the phrase identifies Him as the God of the Old Testament. Isaiah ascribes this aspect of Jesus’ nature as part of the triune God in several places. “I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last I am He” (41:4). “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6). “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last” (Isaiah 48:12). These are clear indications of the eternal nature of the Godhead.

Christ, as the Alpha and Omega, is the first and last in so many ways. He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), signifying that He begins it and carries it through to completion. He is the totality, the sum and substance of the Scriptures, both of the Law and of the Gospel (John 1:1, 14). He is the fulfilling end of the Law (Matthew 5:17), and He is the beginning subject matter of the gospel of grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). He is found in the first verse of Genesis and in the last verse of Revelation. He is the first and last, the all in all of salvation, from the justification before God to the final sanctification of His people.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. Only God incarnate could make such a statement. Only Jesus Christ is God incarnate.

I get the feeling that no matter what we post to prove Jesus is God there will still be those who will disbelieve it.

 

[Johann]

This miracle established Jesus’ claim to deity and thus provides further confirmation of His pre-existence.

Thank you precious @Pearl.
shalom to you and family
J.

 

[Pearl]

I get the feeling that no matter what we post to prove Jesus is God there will still be those who will disbelieve it

Thank you precious @Pearl.
shalom to you and family
J.

Fight the Good Fight.

 

[amadeus]

I get the feeling that no matter what we post to prove Jesus is God there will still be those who will disbelieve it...

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

Even if we are right and the other fellow is wrong, our argument alone will not impress the opposition unless there is an open and hungry heart.

 

[APAK]

How do you explain these verses then?

Micah 5:2--"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One
will go forth from Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."

Let's try another off your list. This one you claim proved Christ's pre-existence.

Well let's see shall we..

I had this one already generated up before hand as I've been through many scripture with other misguided Trinitarians and other who say they have proof of Christ' pre-existence before he was actually born.

Micah 5:2: Note: This verse must not be interpreted as a stand-alone verse. The context and understanding of it are written in the next few verses.

Jesus’ birth and life coming born out of Bethlehem were known from ancient times; ‘whose going forth are from old,’ from before the start of creation, in God’s mind, or from the days of King David.

Jesus came from the smallest and insignificant of villages in Judah - became the true ruler of Israel. Incidentally, King David was also born there.

The expression ‘whose going forth are from old,’ does not mean Jesus was alive in eternity past, before creation. Jesus' future life born in Bethlehem was already known before creation before time began, in God’s state of timelessness and in the days of David.

The expression ‘whose going forth’ can also be translated as ‘whose going out.’ Or whose origin(s) are (KNOWN) from old.’

Another way of stating the seeming contentious portion of verse 2: Who’s human birth (coming out of the womb), his place of origin, his beginning, Jesus being born out of Bethlehem, was known from ancient times by God and at least from King David’s time.

Jesus’ birthplace Bethlehem, the future ruler of Israel was already known!

Verse 3: God will abandon Judah until Jesus’ birth. Then, or after that time, the rest or remnant of Judah and Israel, of all believers in Christ shall return to God, the Father.

Verse 4: Then Jesus as Yahshua (The Father saves) shall actively (‘stand’) care for, protect and spiritually grow his people with the strength of his Father, God - YHWH. The name Yahshua will be known throughout the earth.

See also Matthew 2:6 and John 7: 41-42 as they echo these verses 2-4 of Micah 5.

Again, no proof in this scripture of a pre-existent Yahshua Johann.

I've answered the Trinitarian Law-givers as you are one Johann, and many others before you, at your inquisitions of your corrupted and flawed truth, for many years now, and not one, and I will wager yourself as well, will never convince me in what they/you were/are speaking about concerning the nature of Christ and his Father were/are true.

 

[Johann]

Let's try another off your list. This one you claim proved Christ's pre-existence.

Well let's see shall we..

I had this one already generated up before hand as I've been through many scripture with other misguided Trinitarians and other who say they have proof of Christ' pre-existence before he was actually born.

Micah 5:2: Note: This verse must not be interpreted as a stand-alone verse. The context and understanding of it are written in the next few verses.

Jesus’ birth and life coming born out of Bethlehem were known from ancient times; ‘whose going forth are from old,’ from before the start of creation, in God’s mind, or from the days of King David.

Jesus came from the smallest and insignificant of villages in Judah - became the true ruler of Israel. Incidentally, King David was also born there.

The expression ‘whose going forth are from old,’ does not mean Jesus was alive in eternity past, before creation. Jesus' future life born in Bethlehem was already known before creation before time began, in God’s state of timelessness and in the days of David.

The expression ‘whose going forth’ can also be translated as ‘whose going out.’ Or whose origin(s) are (KNOWN) from old.’

Another way of stating the seeming contentious portion of verse 2: Who’s human birth (coming out of the womb), his place of origin, his beginning, Jesus being born out of Bethlehem, was known from ancient times by God and at least from King David’s time.

Jesus’ birthplace Bethlehem, the future ruler of Israel was already known!

Verse 3: God will abandon Judah until Jesus’ birth. Then, or after that time, the rest or remnant of Judah and Israel, of all believers in Christ shall return to God, the Father.

Verse 4: Then Jesus as Yahshua (The Father saves) shall actively (‘stand’) care for, protect and spiritually grow his people with the strength of his Father, God - YHWH. The name Yahshua will be known throughout the earth.

See also Matthew 2:6 and John 7: 41-42 as they echo these verses 2-4 of Micah 5.

Again, no proof in this scripture of a pre-existent Yahshua Johann.

I've answered the Trinitarian Law-givers as you are one Johann, and many others before you, at your inquisitions of your corrupted and flawed truth, for many years now, and not one, and I will wager yourself as well, will never convince me in what they/you were/are speaking about concerning the nature of Christ and his Father were/are true.

Know what? I feel like little David facing giants such as yourself, reading, studying the Scriptures with limited resources and believe what I read as it stands written.
Are you a man of the cloth?
Anyway, I cannot agree with you but that doesn't mean I am your enemy.
Shalom
J.

 

[Wrangler]

Don't attack the person..is Christ God?
Unitarian?
J.

Of course not! The son is not the Father. That is why Jesus said he has a God, who is the one true God. Who are you to contradict Christ?

And it’s no attack on the person to observe they ignore verses that destroy their false doctrine. Funny, as you are the one on the attack, calling us unitarians dumb and demons and so forth.

Simple truth, Christ did not teach the trinity, so why are you?

 

[Wrangler]

I did not need to address the verse you mentioned because there are plenty of others which prove to me that Jesus is God.

Proof to you? Truth is not subjective.

We all know why you cannot cite the verse that says you have to believe Jesus is God to be saved; it does not exist.

 

[Johann]

Fight the Good Fight.

1Ti_6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses


1Co_9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Heb_12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

..facing the "giants" together pearl.
Blessings
J.

 

[Wrangler]

Powerful verse...Do you believe it?
J.

I believe you are reading your doctrine into verses but no verse explicitly says something like if you don’t believe Jesus is God you cannot be saved.

A rational person would answer A or B in response.
A. Cite the verse that explicitly states the trinity doctrine.
B. Humbly admit there is no verse that explicitly states the trinity doctrine.

 

[Johann]

Funny, as you are the one on the attack, calling us unitarians dumb and demons and so forth.

Humbly admit there is no verse that explicitly states the trinity doctrine.

I do NOT retract, or recant in anyway whatsoever.
J.

 

[Wrangler]

I do NOT retract, or recant in anyway whatsoever.
J.

Stubborn, foolish, pride?

I can lead a horse to water … but can’t make you answer the many questions I’ve posed. Probably best to add you to my ignore list.

 

[Truther]

Three in Person yet echad.
J.

???

 

[Waiting on him]

Jesus said, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). This passage alone is sufficient to show that the Scripture supports Jesus’ pre-existence, but it is just one of many

which world was Jesus speaking of?

 

[Waiting on him]

I get the feeling that no matter what we post to prove Jesus is God there will still be those who will disbelieve it

Fight the Good Fight.

Since johann refuses to answer I’ll ask you

As Jesus was on the cross he said my God my God why have you forsaken me.

Was Jesus talking too and forsaking himself?

 

[Truther]

Christ’s name is called “Wonderful” (<230906>Isaiah 9:6), and even the angels of
God are commanded to worship Him (<580106>Hebrews 1:6). There is no
salvation apart from a true knowledge of Him (<431703>John 17:3). “Whosoever
denieth the Son [either His true Godhead, or His true and holy humanity]...
hath not the Father” (<620223>1 John 2:23).

They are thrice-blessed to whom the
Spirit of Truth communicates a supernatural revelation of the Being of
Christ (<401617>Matthew 16:17). It will lead them in the only path of wisdom
and joy, for in Him “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge”
(
<510203>Colossians 2:3) until they are taken to be where He is and behold His
supernal glory forever (<431724>John 17:24). An increasing apprehension of the
Truth concerning the person of Christ should be our constant aim.

“Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was
manifest in the flesh” (<540316>1 Timothy 3:16).

In view of such a divine declaration as this, it is both useless and impious
for any man to attempt an explanation of the wondrous and unique person
of the Lord Jesus.

He cannot be fully comprehended by any finite
intelligence. “No man knoweth the Son, but the Father” (<401127>Matthew
11:27). Nevertheless, it is our privilege to grow “in the knowledge of our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (<610318>2 Peter 3:18).

So too it is the duty of
His servants to hold up the person of the God-man as revealed in Holy
Scriptures, as well as to warn against errors which cloud His glory.
The one born in Bethlehem’s manger was “the mighty God” (<230906>Isaiah
9:6), “Immanuel” (<400123>Matthew 1:23), “the great God and our Savior”
(
<560213>Titus 2:13). He is also the true Man, with a spirit, a soul and a body,
for these are essential to human nature. None could be real man without all
three. Nevertheless, the humanity of Christ (that holy thing, <420135>Luke 1:35)
is not a distinct person, separate from His Godhead, for it never had a
separate existence before taken into union with His deity. He is the God man, yet “one Lord” (<490405>Ephesians 4:5). As such He was born, lived here
in this world, died, rose again, ascended to heaven, and will continue thus
176
for all eternity. As such He is entirely unique, and the Object of lasting
wonder to all holy beings.

The person of Christ is a composite one. Two separate natures are united
in one peerless Person; but they are not fused into each other, instead, they
remain distinct and different. The human nature is not divine, nor has it
been, intrinsically, deified, for it possesses none of the attributes of God.

The humanity of Christ, absolutely and separately considered, is neither
omnipotent, omniscient, nor omnipresent. On the other hand, His deity is
not a creature, and has none of the properties which pertain to such.

Taking to Himself a human nature did not effect any change in His divine
being. It was a divine person who wedded to Himself a holy humanity, and
though His essential glory was partly veiled, yet it never ceased to be, nor
did His divine attributes cease to function. As the God-man, Christ is the
“one mediator” (<540205>1 Timothy 2:5). He alone was fitted to stand between
God and men and effect a reconciliation between them.
J.

So you are trying to say that Jesus on earth was only a "nature" of God?

So, when he spoke of his God, it was actually God's human nature acting like an individual with a God?