For those who think Christ is not God.

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Is Christ God?

  • God

    Votes: 32 78.0%
  • Lesser than God

    Votes: 7 17.1%
  • A mere Son/Man of God.

    Votes: 2 4.9%

  • Total voters
    41

Wrangler

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"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," (ESV)

It always fascinates me how trinitarians deny this refers to 2 Beings or could possibly be referring to 2 Beings; the glory of our great President and VP Harris. This is how people talk today.

It’s like they are so desperate to find SOMETHING that if you read into it their doctrine, verses it offsets the explicit teachings that say ‘God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ’ and ‘For us, there is one God, the Father, etc.

Then they double down by saying their doctrine is pervasive, all throughout Scripture but again, the opposite is true; Scripture explicitly goes against their doctrine throughout the 66 books. An example is Jesus saying he has a God and his God is the only God.
 
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Goldie75

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The second book of Enoch was not included in the Canon of the Catholic church. But sticking to the books only contained in the bible is like following the Catholic church and Roman selection. Since Rome made the cannon selection themselves, and they crucified Christ. Long story short, I'm interested in what they decided wasn't good for them to include in the bible: Biblical canon - Wikipedia
Here is what a minister I very much respect had to say on the Book of Enoch:

“It was never part of the Hebrew Canon because it was not regarded as being inspired by God. Had it been inspired by God, I have no doubt He would have ensured it was placed in the Canon. Remember it was God that gave us our Bible, not men. They were merely the instruments "moved upon" by the Holy Spirit ... and if God had moved on man to write this book, He would not have allowed them to leave it out. God doesn't bail out half-way through on something He begins.

Further, it was not in any way written by Enoch. It was written some time between 300 and 100 BC, more than 3,000 years after Enoch lived. Here is what Pastor Jim Levitt of "Thinking Christianity" has to say about it:
---
The book of Enoch was not considered to be part of the canon by the Jews in Old Testament times, or by the New Testament writers. Some would argue that the book must be biblical since it is quoted in the New Testament. But this is a logical fallacy. When a biblical writer quotes a non-biblical source, that quotation does automatically elevate the source to the level of divine scripture.

For example, in Acts 17:28, Paul takes the quote, “For in him we live and move and have our being,” from Aratus’s Phaenomena 5. He quotes this to make a point to his Athenian audience. Another example is Titus 1:12, where Paul quotes a line from Epimenides (6th-5th century B.C.) who was held in honor on Crete as a poet, prophet, and religious reformer. The Old Testament also refers to documents that are not part of scripture but were useful for the compiler of books like Kings, Chronicles, and Samuel.

Jude 14 refers to a quotation made by antediluvian (before the flood) patriarch Enoch. We do not have the Book of Enoch in any extant (existing) translation around the first century when Jude was written. Most copies of the Book of Enoch are from the medieval period. Many commentators believe that the quote in Jude comes from oral tradition that was accessible in the first century.

Another logical fallacy critics sometimes fall into when describing this book and others is that it was “left out” of the canon. This is a common argument for those who would put the 2nd and 3rd Century Gnostic gospels in the canon. But the Gnostic writings came much later than the other documents in the New Testament canon and these Gnostic works were rejected from the beginning by contemporaries like Origen. That statement that a book was “left out” also assumes it was in there in the first place. That is circular reasoning. It assumes what needs to be proven. (It’s like wondering why the BMW on the street was left out of my garage. It was never mine in the first place, but belonged to my neighbor.)

See Mark D. Roberts, Can We Trust the Gospels and Norman Geisler From God to Us: How We Got Our Bible. “
 
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Johann

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Luk 9:26 For whoever has bushah (shame) toward me and my dvarim, this one the Ben HaAdam (Moshiach, DANIEL 7:13-14) will be ashamed of, when Moshiach comes in his Kavod and the Kavod of HaAv of him and of the malachim hakedoshim (holy angels).


). But the point
here is that humankind in Gn
1:27 is “HaAdam” in Hebrew,
and that verse shows Man as
having both singularity and
plurality (oto and otam, Gn
1:27), thus reflecting his
Maker, Elohim, Who also has
singularity and plurality in
His complexity (compare
echad in Gn 2:24 and Dt 6:4).

Gn 1:26 uses a majestic plural
but the Doctrine of Hashem’s
Kedushah Meshuleshet
(Threefold Holiness) is seen in
Elohim (Gn 1:1) and the Dvar
Hashem (Gn 1:3) and the
Ruach Elohim (Gn 1:2)
engaged in the work of
creation.

When we look at the
original language in Zohar
Vol.3 Ha'azinu page 288b, we
see the text which comments
on Daniel 7:13, where the Bar
Moshiach comes to the
Ancient of Days. The Zohar
says, "The Ancient One is
described as being two (TAVRESH-YUD-FINAL
NOON,Aramaic for "two")." G-d
and the Moshiach, called by
Daniel "the Ancient of Days"
and "the Son of Man" are
obviously a picture of G-d as
"two" in the Bible, and the
Zohar owns up to this fact,
calling G-d "two."

Two
sentences prior to that on the
same page, the original
language of the text of the
Zohar says, "The Ancient Holy
One [i.e. G-d, Daniel 7:13] is
found with three (TAVLAMMED-TAV, Aramaic for
"three") heads or chiefs (RESHYUD-SHIN-YUD-FINAL NOON
Aramaic for "heads"), which are
united in One (CHET-DALET
Aramaic for "one")." Here we
have a picture in the Zohar of
the raz (mystery) of G-d's
unity, the distinct havayot
(subsistences, modes of being)
in Adonoi Echad. G-d is
echad,one, but a complex one,
not three g-ds, only Hashem,
One, but with Hashem’s
Kedushah Meshuleshet
(Threefold holiness, Isa 6:3).
OJB

God pros God...Jn 1:1
In active and intimate fellowship, face to face...

J.
 

marks

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It always fascinates me how trinitarians deny this refers to 2 Beings or could possibly be referring to 2 Beings; the glory of our great President and VP Harris. This is how people talk today.
How people talk today really has nothing to do with correct interpretation of Koine Greek.

Much love!
 
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farouk

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Here is what a minister I very much respect had to say on the Book of Enoch:

“It was never part of the Hebrew Canon because it was not regarded as being inspired by God. Had it been inspired by God, I have no doubt He would have ensured it was placed in the Canon. Remember it was God that gave us our Bible, not men. They were merely the instruments "moved upon" by the Holy Spirit ... and if God had moved on man to write this book, He would not have allowed them to leave it out. God doesn't bail out half-way through on something He begins.

Further, it was not in any way written by Enoch. It was written some time between 300 and 100 BC, more than 3,000 years after Enoch lived. Here is what Pastor Jim Levitt of "Thinking Christianity" has to say about it:
---
The book of Enoch was not considered to be part of the canon by the Jews in Old Testament times, or by the New Testament writers. Some would argue that the book must be biblical since it is quoted in the New Testament. But this is a logical fallacy. When a biblical writer quotes a non-biblical source, that quotation does automatically elevate the source to the level of divine scripture.

For example, in Acts 17:28, Paul takes the quote, “For in him we live and move and have our being,” from Aratus’s Phaenomena 5. He quotes this to make a point to his Athenian audience. Another example is Titus 1:12, where Paul quotes a line from Epimenides (6th-5th century B.C.) who was held in honor on Crete as a poet, prophet, and religious reformer. The Old Testament also refers to documents that are not part of scripture but were useful for the compiler of books like Kings, Chronicles, and Samuel.

Jude 14 refers to a quotation made by antediluvian (before the flood) patriarch Enoch. We do not have the Book of Enoch in any extant (existing) translation around the first century when Jude was written. Most copies of the Book of Enoch are from the medieval period. Many commentators believe that the quote in Jude comes from oral tradition that was accessible in the first century.

Another logical fallacy critics sometimes fall into when describing this book and others is that it was “left out” of the canon. This is a common argument for those who would put the 2nd and 3rd Century Gnostic gospels in the canon. But the Gnostic writings came much later than the other documents in the New Testament canon and these Gnostic works were rejected from the beginning by contemporaries like Origen. That statement that a book was “left out” also assumes it was in there in the first place. That is circular reasoning. It assumes what needs to be proven. (It’s like wondering why the BMW on the street was left out of my garage. It was never mine in the first place, but belonged to my neighbor.)

See Mark D. Roberts, Can We Trust the Gospels and Norman Geisler From God to Us: How We Got Our Bible. “
@Goldie75 Good to keep distinguished what is and is not canonical, right?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Friend, nothing on this planet, demon, or even you is going to convince me otherwise.
I'm going to give you ONE verse and there is not going to be a debate or a "rebuttal"

Tit_2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ[/QUOTE\]

If you're saying this scripture is saying Jesus Christ is God there are many that disagree. According to them going by how this scripture is written in Greek it isn't saying that Jesus Christ and YHWH are the same person. This scripture is speaking about two persons, the only True God and his Christ who is the True God's Only Begotten Son who is the seed the one that the True God is using to save mankind.
Titus 2:13-Of the Great God and of [the] Savior of Us, Christ Jesus”

Tit 2:13—Gr., τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ

(tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ Khri·stouʹ I·e·souʹ)

the Riverside New Testament of Boston and New York of 1934 translates Titus 2:13- of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”

A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, New York and London 1935 translates Titus 2:13- “of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus”

La Sainte Bible, by Louis Segond, Paris of 1957 translates Titus 2:13- “of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ”

The New American Bible, New York and London of 1970 translates Titus 2:13- “of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus”

The New Testament in Modern English, by J.B. Phillips, New 1972 translates Titus 2:13- “of the great God and of Christ Jesus our saviour”


In Titus 2:13 we find two nouns connected by the Greek word καί which is tranlated “and” in the English language, the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ which is translated “of the” in the english language and the second noun without the definite article. A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Ac 13:50; 15:22; Eph 5:5; 2Th 1:12; 1Ti 5:21; 6:13; 2Ti 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·neʹ] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”

A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. 21:12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·lounʹtas kai a·go·raʹzon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·teʹros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·monʹ] for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he doʹxa tou me·gaʹlou The·ouʹ kai so·teʹros he·monʹ], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [I·e·souʹ Khri·stouʹ to so·teʹros he·monʹ] changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·osʹ], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. 1: 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·taʹ ten khaʹrin tou The·ouʹ he·monʹ kai ky·riʹou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου [I·e·souʹ Khri·stouʹ to ky·riʹou] makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”

Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, YHWH God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify YHWH and Jesus Christ as being the same individual.

I understand that those who believe Jesus to be God are not going to agree with this but this disagreement of Jesus Christ being God or the Only Begotten Son of God has been going on for centuries, and as I said before the scriptures have never said that those who deny Jesus to be God wouldn't get eternal life but instead the scriptures say those who deny that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God will not get eternal life.



 

Waiting on him

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κόσμον World.
Get your bearings right.
J.
Here I’ll help you one more time.
Here Jesus tells you what the world is


John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.


Can you receive it?
 
J

Johann

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Explain Jn 1:1 Immanuel,

Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Exegete the above.

John 20:27-28 “Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

2 Peter 1:1 “Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.“

23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

22. Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Only God can be worshiped. Jesus was worshiped.
19. Matthew 2:1-2 “After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

20. Matthew 28:8-9 “So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.“

"Reason" these away for me please...
J.
 

Waiting on him

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Luk 9:26 For whoever has bushah (shame) toward me and my dvarim, this one the Ben HaAdam (Moshiach, DANIEL 7:13-14) will be ashamed of, when Moshiach comes in his Kavod and the Kavod of HaAv of him and of the malachim hakedoshim (holy angels).

Jesus instructed John to write epistles too Angels, does this seem odd too you?
 

Waiting on him

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Explain Jn 1:1 Immanuel,

Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Exegete the above.

John 20:27-28 “Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

2 Peter 1:1 “Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.“

23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

22. Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Only God can be worshiped. Jesus was worshiped.
19. Matthew 2:1-2 “After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

20. Matthew 28:8-9 “So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.“

"Reason" these away for me please...
J.
He’s the image of the invisible God
 

marks

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Philippians 2:5-11 KJV
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus "made himself of no reputation" . . . what was He before that?

Jesus humbled Himself. What was He before He humbled Himself? Was He glorious?

Jesus became obedient. What was He before He became obedient? Was He sovereign?

He took upon Him the form of a servant. And before that? Was He Lord?

Paul knew the Scriptures.

Isaiah 45:21-24 KJV
21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Philippians 2
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If Paul were not telling us that Jesus is YHWH, why would he write such a thing? But this is God inspired Scripture.

There is One saviour, only One, YHWH. There is One Name given by which all men must be saved, Jesus.

"For what good work do you stone Me?" "Not for any good work, but because You, a man, make yourself to be God!" Jesus' enemies understood him, why can't we?

Much love!
 
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Waiting on him

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Matthew 27:46 KJV
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Here you guys have Jesus talking too and forsaking himself?
 
J

Johann

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Titus 2:13


Tit 2:13. Προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα] The strange collocation of προσδεχ. and ἐλπίδα is found also in Act 24:15 : ἐλπίδα ἔχων … ἣν καὶ αὐτοὶ οὗτοι προσδέχονται; so, too, in Gal 5:5 : ἐλπίδα … ἀπεκδεχόμεθα. The reason of it is that ἐλπίς not only denotes actively the hope, but also passively the thing hoped for, the subject of the hope; comp. Col 1:5 : ἡ ἐλπὶς ἡ ἀποκειμένη ἐν τ. οὐρανοῖς; comp., too, Rom 8:24.
μακαρίαν] Paul thus describes the ἐλπίδα in so far as the expectation of it blesses the believer. Wolf wrongly interprets ἡ μακ. ἐλπίς as equivalent to ἡ ἐλπιζομένη μακαριότης.
This ἐλπίς is further defined by the epexegesis: καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰ. Χριστοῦ] According to Hofmann, the adjective μακαρίαν as well as the genitive τῆς δόξης κ.τ.λ. belongs to both substantives, to ἐλπίδα and to ἐπιφάνειαν, because, as he thinks, ἡ μακαρία ἐλπίς is not a conception complete in itself. But Rom 15:4 shows this to be wrong. The genitive could only be construed with the two substantives by giving it a different reference in each case. Hofmann, indeed, maintains that this presents no difficulty, as it occurs elsewhere; but he is wrong in his appeal to Rom 15:4 (comp. Meyer on the passage) and to 1Pe 1:2 and 2Pe 3:11 (comp. my commentary on the passages).
Beyond doubt, the ἐπιφάνεια τῆς δόξης κ.τ.λ. denotes Christ’s second coming (1Ti 6:14); it may, however, be asked whether μεγάλου Θεοῦ is an independent subject or an attribute of Ἰησ. Χρ. The older expositors are of the latter opinion; the orthodox even appealed to this passage against the Arians. Ambrosius, however, distinguishes here between Christus and Deus Pater.[5] Erasmus, too, says: simul cum Patre apparebit eadem gloria conspicuus Dominus ac Servator noster J. Chr.; and Bengel says of ΘΕΟῦ simply: referri potest ad Christum. Among more recent expositors, Flatt, Mack, Matthies, Wiesinger, van Oosterzee, Hofmann, adopt the former view; while de Wette, Plitt, Winer, pp. 123 f.[E. T. p. 162], adopt the latter. Heydenreich leaves the question undecided.[6] It cannot be decided on purely grammatical grounds, for μεγ. Θεοῦ and σωτῆρος ἡμ. may be two attributes referring to Ἰησ. Χριστοῦ; still it may be also that σωτῆρ. ἡμῶν Ἰησ. Χρ. is a subject distinct from μεγ. Θεοῦ, even although only one article is used.[7] The question can only be answered by an appeal to N. T. usage, both for this passage and others like it: 2Pe 1:1; Jud 1:4; 2Th 1:12. In 2Pe 1:11; 2Pe 3:18, the unity of the subject is beyond doubt. The following points may be urged in favour of distinguishing two subjects:—(1) In no single, passage is Θεός connected directly with Ἰησοῦς Χριστός as an attribute (see my commentary on 2Pe 1:1); i.e. there never occurs in the N. T. the simple construction ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν Ἰησ. Χρ., or ὁ Θεὸς Ἰησοῦς Χρ., or Ἰησ. Χρ. ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν, whereas κύριος and σωτήρ are often enough construed in this way. (2) The collocation of God (Θεός) and Christus as two subjects is quite current, not only in the Pastoral Epistles (1Ti 1:1-2; 1Ti 5:21; 1Ti 6:13; 2Ti 1:2; 2Ti 4:1; Tit 1:4), but also in all the epistles of the N. T., Pauline or not, so much so, that when in some few passages the turn of the expression is such as to make Θεός refer grammatically to Christ also, these passages have to be explained in accordance with the almost invariable meaning of the expression. (3) The addition of the adjective μεγάλου indicates that Θεοῦ is to be taken as an independent subject, especially when it is observed how Paul in the First Epistle to Timothy uses similar epithets to exalt God’s glory; comp. 1Ti 1:17; 1Ti 4:10; 1Ti 6:15-16, especially Tit 1:11 : ἡ δόξα τοῦ μακαρίου Θεοῦ. It is true the expression ὁ μέγας Θεός is not found in the N. T., except in the Rec. of Rev 19:17, but it occurs frequently in the O. T.: Deu 6:21; Deu 10:17; Neh 9:32; Dan 2:45; Dan 9:4.[8]
For the unity of the subject only one reason can be urged with any show of force, viz. that elsewhere the word ἘΠΙΦΆΝΕΙΑ is only used in reference to Christ; but Erasmus long ago pointed out that it does not stand here ἘΠΙΦ. ΤΟῦ ΘΕΟῦ, but Τῆς ΔΌΞΗς ΤΟῦ ΘΕΟῦ. Wiesinger, too, has to admit “that, according to passages like Mat 16:27, Mar 8:38, Christ appears in the glory of the Father and at the same time in His own glory (Mat 25:31), and His appearance may therefore be called the appearance both of God’s glory and of His own.” Wiesinger, indeed, tries to weaken this admission by remarking that in reality it is Christ Himself who will appear ἘΝ ΔΌΞῌ ΤΟῦ ΠΆΤΡΟς, and not God, that therefore ΔΌΞΑ would be construed with the genitives in quite different relations, and that on grammatico-logical principles it must mean either ἘΝ ΣΩΤῆΡΙ ἩΜῶΝ ἸΗΣ. ΧΡΙΣΤῷ, or ΤΟῦ ΣΩΤῆΡΟς ἩΜῶΝ ἘΝ Τῇ ΔΌΞῌ ΤΟῦ ΜΕΓΆΛΟΥ ΘΕΟῦ (Matthies). But his remark is wrong. Even if the subjects be distinct, the genitive ΤΟῦ ΜΕΓ. ΘΕΟῦ stands in the same relation to Τῆς ΔΌΞΗς as does the genitive ΣΩΤῆΡΟς ἩΜ. Ι. ΧΡ. Nor is the form of expression necessary on which Matthies insists, because in the N. T. God and Christ are often enough connected simply by καὶ without marking their mutual relations. Wiesinger further remarks that no reason whatever can be found in the context for connecting ΘΕΌς here as well as Christ with the ἘΠΙΦΆΝΕΙΑ, but he has manifestly overlooked the relation of ΠΡΟΣΔΕΧΌΜΕΝΟΙ ΤῊΝ ἘΠΙΦΆΝΕΙΑΝ Τῆς ΔΌΞΗς ΤΟῦ ΜΕΓ. ΘΕΟῦ to ἘΠΕΦΆΝΗ Ἡ ΧΆΡΙς ΤΟῦ ΘΕΟῦ.[9]
Chrysostom rightly says: δύο δείκνυσιν ἐνταῦθα ἐπιφανείας· καὶ γάρ εἰσι δύο· ἡ μὲν πρότερα χάριτος, ἡ δὲ δευτέρα ἀνταποδόσεως. The χάρις of God has already appeared; the δόξα of God appears only at the day of completion, when Christ is made manifest in His δόξα, which is the δόξα of God. Though not so directly as it would have been if the subjects were identical, this passage is still a testimony in favour of the truth of the doctrine of Christ’s divinity.[10]
Matthies suggests that in the expression τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ there is an allusion to the great Zeus worshipped in Crete, but that is more than improbable.
The genitive σωτῆρος is not dependent on ἐπιφάνειαν, but on τῆς δόξης. In 1Pe 4:13 also Christ’s second coming is called the revelation of His δόξα.
[5] The words of Ambrosius are: hanc esse dicit beatam spem credentium, qui exspectant adventum gloriae magni Dei, quod revelari habet judice Christo, in quo Dei patris videbitur potestas et gloria, ut fidei suae praemium consequantur. Ad hoc enim redemit nos Christus, ut, puram vitam sectantes, repleti bonis operibus, regni Dei haeredes esse possimus.
[6] Heydenreich wrongly supposes that δόξα here is the glory which God and Christ will give to believers.
[7] Hofmann wrongly asserts that because σωτῆρος ἡμῶν stands before Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, and with μεγάλου Θεοῦ under one and the same article, therefore ἡμῶν must belong to μεγάλου Θεοῦ as much as to σωτῆρος, and μεγάλου to σωτῆρος as much as to Θεοῦ, and both together to Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ as predicate. There are instances enough of two distinct subjects standing under one article only, and we cannot see why these instances should not be quoted here. It cannot indeed be said that σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰ. Χρ. needs no article; for, although σωτήρ as well as κύριος may be construed with Ἰ. Χρ. without the article, still there is no instance of κύριος ἡμῶν being without the article when construed with Ἰ. Χρ. But the article before μεγ. Θεοῦ may, according to N. T. usage, be also referred to σωτῆρος Ἰ. Χρ. without making it necessary to assume a unity of subject; comp. Buttm. pp. 84 ff.; Winer, pp. 118 ff. [E. T. p. 158]. Hofmann is no less wrong in what he says regarding the necessity of the reference of μεγάλου and of ἡμῶν Paul, indeed, might have written: τοῦ μεγ. Θεοῦ καὶ Ἰησ. Χρ. τοῦ σωτῆρος ὑμῶν, but he could also express the same thought in the way he has written it.
[8] Usteri (Paul. Lehrb. 5th ed. p. 326) says: “God the Father did not need the extolling epithet μέγας;” to which it may be replied: “Did Christ need such an epithet?”—If Hofmann be right in remarking that Christ is not ὁ Θεός, which is the subject-name of the Father, then it is very questionable that Paul would Call Him ὁ μέγας Θεός.
[9] Van Oosterzee has advanced nothing new in support of the view disputed above. The appeal to 2Pe 1:11 is of no use, unless it be proved in passages beyond dispute that Θεός, like κύριος, is joined with Ἰησοῦς Χριστός as an attribute.
[10] Calvin: Verum brevius et certius repellere licet Arianos, quia Paulus, de revelatione magni Dei locutus, mox Christum adjunxit, ut sciremus, in hujus persona fore illam gloriae revelationem, ac si diceret, ubi Christus apparuerit, tunc patefactum nobis iri divinae gloriae magnitudinem.

Listen Barney, I know I am in good hands.
J.
 
J

Johann

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My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Here you guys have Jesus talking too and forsaking himself?

Guess you forgot that Yeshua is fully Man and fully God?


17. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.“

18. Revelation 1:17-18 “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.“
The Aleph and the Tav..

Colossians 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together


Revelation 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.”

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

15. Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”

16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 “Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”
Do you know Messiah?
J.
 

Waiting on him

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Guess you forgot that Yeshua is fully Man and fully God?


17. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.“

18. Revelation 1:17-18 “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.“
The Aleph and the Tav..

Colossians 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together


Revelation 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.”

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

15. Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”

16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 “Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”
Do you know Messiah?
J.
Do I know Jesus, absolutely. By now you should know what the world is and what an Angel is.

Jesus kept pointing to the Father, saying the day was coming when all would worship Him in spirit and in truth.
 
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