For those who think Christ is not God.

[Johann]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

@marks and J.

 

[APAK]

Friend, nothing on this planet, demon, or even you is going to convince me otherwise.
I'm going to give you ONE verse and there is not going to be a debate or a "rebuttal"

Tit_2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

I have come to know my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and my heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit through experience, working in my life in my darkest moments.
I have seldom see the mountaintop in my life but Christ Jesus is putting me in the refiners fire more than seven times.
In the "valleys" is my life story giving all glory and the highest eulogy to Him who is worthy to be praised.
You are conversing with a "dead man" friend, and do put that pride of yours aside, it is not becoming to such a man as yourself.
I have nothing to prove to you brother and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You don't know me, I don't know you and it is better that way.
Hit that ignore button since you know it all and are able to fully "exegete" the living, trice holy Father, the living unsearchable God, the immutable omniscience of my Lord Christ Jesus
I do hope I have made myself clear and not speaking in cryptic "lingo"
J.

Johann, so you cannot even do a commentary for understanding of a verse in scripture you love and cherish that says to you Christ is God and want to share this truth with others?

You are one of literally 100s I have posed this challenge to, with variations, and I'm not surprised you have hidden yourself behind the door of your wares you are selling, the Trinity store. You are brave to display a huge sign of what you are selling as truth in the front of your store/shop window as long as you do not have to unlock and open the door to actually explain or be confronted by others who do not believe in what you sell and thus you.

Remember this well, and I say this in all honesty and kindness and the naked truth that I know it as being. Trinitarians do not do scripture very well, because they cannot. They have a built-in handicap. They cannot do commentaries of scriptures because their doctrine is not conducive with and for scripture - the word of God, who is our Father's words, not his Son's words. They cannot bind several like scripture together to show their doctrine as truth. And why you say, because of the trinitarian lens implanted within the core of their spiritual eyes that can only see an invented false god of trinity, and not the truth about God, the Father, and his Son. They are blind to scripture as they constantly rely on the traditions and doctrines of men for their spiritual sight and path to the truth.

Thank God, the Father of his sacrificial son, Yahshua, his Messiah, for us and our salvation, and thus my Lord of my God that I do not follow the traditions of men for truth, only your truth in your word and by your Holy Spirit. Amen

So how is Christ God in Titus 2:13 Johann? I don't think you can add even two useful sentences...

 

[Wrangler]

Suggest you prayerfully read this and lean not to your own understanding...

Self-righteous. Pompous hypocrisy. Desperate leaning on your own understanding.

 

[APAK]

@Johann I know you cannot really understand Titus 2:13 because of the lens you wear, so let me guide you to the truth, the truth and nothing but the truth as I know it.

First you will find other scripture that forms congruence with the thinking and words of Titus 2:13. This is not surprising as the coming of Christ, his Parousia is going to be a heaven and earth shattering event.

Luke 9:26 for example
"Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels."(NIV)

and Matt 16:27
"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done." (NIV)

and now Titus 2:13
"while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,"
(NIV)

and your presented version...

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," (ESV)

Now if we are honest with ourselves we can see that when we review Matt 16:17 and Luke 9:26 along with Titus 2:3 we can readily see that the glory of our great God means the glory of our Father. In other words our great one God is the Father, and no one else. Christ is not the great God as I believe you want it to be. Christ returns in the glory of his Father who is the great God.

 

[Wrangler]

The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.

1st, it is not true that the concept is pervasive. Every Epistle identifies solely as the Father alone with God.

2nd, so what if it were pervasive? Where is the verse that makes believing the trinity, which violates the 1C, a condition of salvation?

 

[Waiting on him]

New Testament scripture teaches us that creation began when the light of men came into the world this happened in the first century with the birth of Jesus.


John 1:4,7-9 KJV
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. [8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. [9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John is not speaking of the cosmos.

 

[Pearl]

I'm not trying to be harsh here although I do want to summarize what you are writing in this last post and others I have read. It is a 'frightening' conclusion to me, and I cannot apologize for what I read.

You are saying then that those that who believe in the deity of Christ, means he is also God Almighty, the Messiah is also God, the birth given to Mary is also God, the one who died on the Cross is also God. The one who rose to Heaven, is also God. In fact you can get your rubber stamp out and stamp on every word in scripture where you find the words Jesus or Christ or Lord and stamp it GOD. And of course, scripture does not need to be verified or authenticated to know this as fact. True believers already know this as they have been taught by men of cloth...and not necessarily by the Spirit of truth.

I never heard any other view until I came on this site with its mixture. And I stand by by beliefs just as you stand by yours.

 

[Pearl]

Yes that is correct. We have two words to use, Father and Son, and who is superior, Father or Son. Is the Son of endless time greater than the Father of endless time?

Which is superior, your body, mind or spirit?

 

[Johann]

2nd, so what if it were pervasive? Where is the verse that makes believing the trinity, which violates the 1C, a condition of salvation?

Jeshua Hamashiach is God friend, you guys can gang up like a pack of wolves all you like, Jesus Christ IS God..God pros God...bring all your well learned friends..Jesus the Christ IS/haya God!

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου

1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

Don't "gang up on me" when my back is turned man, you guys are a bunch of hypocrites!
Think I can't hold my own with you and your buddies?
Wait till marks get a hold of you and your friends..
Explain these verses o learned man
J.

 

[Taken]

For those who think Christ is not God.
OP ^

Mindful thinkers, spiritual meaning of poor in Spirit.

 

[Johann]

Which is superior, your body, mind or spirit?

@devin, let pearl alone, come, gang up on me, I am used to this.

Tit 2:13 Awaiting the tikvah hameashsheret (the blessed hope), the appearing of the kavod HaEloheinu HaGadol and Moshieynu Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach Yehoshua,
OJB

προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ ⇔ Ἰησοῦ,

Explain.
J.

 

[Johann]

And I stand by by beliefs just as you stand by yours.

Praise God
J.

 

[Johann]

Self-righteous. Pompous hypocrisy. Desperate leaning on your own understanding.

Shalom to you and family.
J.

 

[farouk]

"our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" Jesus is here unambiguously given the title of God! The Caesars claimed similar titles (i.e., Ptolemy I). The terms "appearing" (which contextually relates to Christ's Second Coming) and "great" are never used of YHWH. Also, there is no article with "savior." The syntax of Koine Greek supports this as a title for Jesus because there is only one article with both nouns, thus linking them together (see NET Bible). Jesus is divine (cf. Joh_1:1; Joh_8:57-58; Joh_20:28; Rom_9:5; Php_2:6; 2Th_1:12; Heb_1:8; 2Pe_1:1; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_5:20). In the OT the Messiah (see Special Topic at 1Ti_1:1) was expected to be a divinely empowered person like the Judges. His deity surprised everyone (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM at 1Ti_2:5)!

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου


Of the great God - There can be little doubt, if any, that by “the great God” here, the apostle referred to the Lord Jesus, for it is not a doctrine of the New Testament that God himself as such, or in contradistinction from his incarnate Son, will appear at the last day. It is said, indeed, that the Saviour will come “in the glory of his Father, with his angels” Mat_16:27, but that God as such will appear is not taught in the Bible. The doctrine there is, that God will be manifest in his Son; that the divine approach to our world be through him to judge the race; and that though he will be accompanied with the appropriate symbols of the divinity, yet it will be the Son of God who will be visible. No one, accustomed to Paul’s views, can well doubt that when he used this language he had his eye throughout on the Son of God, and that he expected no other manifestation than what would be made through him.
In no place in the New Testament is the phrase ἐπιφάνειαν τοῦ Θεοῦ epiphaneian tou Theou - “the manifestation or appearing of God” - applied to any other one than Christ It is true that this is spoken of here as the “appearing of the glory - τῆς δόξης tēs doxēs - of the great God,” but the idea is that of such a manifestation as became God, or would appropriately display his glory. It is known to most persons who have attended to religious controversies, that this passage has given rise to much discussion. The ancients, in general, interpreted it as meaning” The glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.” This sense has been vindicated by the labors of Beza, Whitby, Bull, Matthaei, and Middleton (on the Greek article), and is the common interpretation of those who claim to be orthodox; see Bloomfield, Rec. Syn., and Notes, in loc. He contends that the meaning is, “the glorious appearance of that great being who is our God and Saviour.” The arguments for this opinion are well summed up by Bloomfield. Without going into a critical examination of this passage, which would not be in accordance with the design of these Notes, it may be remarked in general:
(1) That no plain reader of the New Testament, accustomed to the common language there, would have any doubt that the apostle referred here to the coming of the Lord Jesus.
(2) That the “coming” of God, as such, is not spoken of in this manner in the New Testament.
(3) That the expectation of Christians was directed to the advent of the ascended Saviour, not to the appearing of God as such.
(4) That this is just such language as one would use who believed that the Lord Jesus is divine, or that the name God might properly be applied to him.
(5) That it would naturally and obviously convey the idea that he was divine, to one who had no theory to defend.
(6) That if the apostle did not mean this, he used such language as was fitted to lead people into error.
(7) And that the fair construction of the Greek here, according to the application of the most rigid rules, abundantly sustains the interpretation which the plain reader of the New Testament would affix to it. The names above referred to are abundant proof that no violation is done to the rules of the Greek language by this interpretation, but rather that the fair construction of the original demands it. If this be so, then this furnishes an important proof of the divinity of Christ.

I am convinced and firmly persuaded that Christ is God.

The Trinity

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, Elohim created. . .”

The basic Hebrew word for God is EL, and this is a singular form. Hebrew has two plural suffixes, for dual and plural (3 or more). Elohim is the plural form for “God”, which is a very strange way to speak of Him.

In Deuteronomy 6:4 we read “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”

In Hebrew, this is “YHWH Elohim, YHWH echad” – echad means, at its root, to be unified. It’s first usage in the Bible is Genesis 1:4 “and there was evening, and there was morning, one day” – a day made of two parts that were unified. Echad is used of one object or person, but is also used of compound unities, such as the first day. Echad is used of the married couple “the two shall become one (echad) flesh”

“YHWH Elohim (Plural God) YHWH unified” This leads us to the doctrine called The Trinity, or Triune God. This is what we find as we study the Bible. God identifies Himself as YHWH, but also is called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these are separate and distinct persons, each are God, and yet we know the “LORD is One.”

Perhaps the clearest picture of our Triune God is at the baptism of Jesus.

Matthew 3:16 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was not the same Person. There was One speaking in heaven, One descending from heaven to earth, and One standing upon the earth.

The Father said, "This is My Son, in Whom I am well pleased." The Father recognized that the Son was Someone other than Himself, rather, His Son.

Some other verses that speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God with us).

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit

Each are called God:

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Each acts in the same capacities as God:

Creating:

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

Colossians 1:16 (speaking of Jesus) For by him were all things created,

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psalm 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

John 1:3 (of Jesus) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gives to us eternal life:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

@Johann Scripture is indeed full of the Deity of Christ.

John's First Epistle makes it emphatic; Romans 8 is another chapter.

 

[Johann]

John is not speaking of the cosmos.

κόσμον World.
Get your bearings right.
J.

 

[Johann]

John's First Epistle makes it emphatic; Romans 8 is another chapter.

Praise our Lord Christ Jesus @farouk..the Deity of Messiah is under attack and you are standing up like a man.
Yours in Christ
J.

 

[farouk]

Praise our Lord Christ Jesus @farouk..the Deity of Messiah is under attack and you are standing up like a man.
Yours in Christ
J.

Romans 8 is such a great chapter with believers can fortify themselves. :)

 

[Johann]

Christ returns in the glory of his Father who is the great God.

Thanks for the explanation, but I am very familiar with Hebrew and Greek.

כִּי־ יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־ לָ֗·נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־ לָ֔·נוּ וַ·תְּהִ֥י הַ·מִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־ שִׁכְמ֑·וֹ וַ·יִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמ֜·וֹ פֶּ֠לֶא יוֹעֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבּ֔וֹר אֲבִי·עַ֖ד שַׂר־ שָׁלֽוֹם׃
In case you can't read that...

Isa 9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).
OJB

J.

 

[Johann]

Romans 8 is such a great chapter with believers can fortify themselves.

Are you walking en the Pneuma?
How is the Holy Spirit witnessing with your spirit?
J.

 

[farouk]

Are you walking en the Pneuma?
How is the Holy Spirit witnessing with your spirit?
J.

@Johann By God's grace, as with every true believer, Romans 8:9 confirms that every born again believer has the Spirit of God indwelling.

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His".

Daily prayer and the Scriptures are so important....