For those who think Christ is not God.

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Is Christ God?

  • God

    Votes: 32 78.0%
  • Lesser than God

    Votes: 7 17.1%
  • A mere Son/Man of God.

    Votes: 2 4.9%

  • Total voters
    41
J

Johann

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Jesus is not equal to Jehovah sir.

Suggest you prayerfully read this and lean not to your own understanding...

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY

Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.

In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:26
Acts — Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter — 1 Pet. 1:2
Jude — vv. 20-21

A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL (see SPECIAL TOPIC: NAMES FOR DEITY), but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27; 3:22; 11:7
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL (as it is in Gen. 2:24; Ezek. 37:17)
"The Angel of the Lord" (see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE ANGEL OF THE LORD) was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in Isa. 48:16; 61:1

The Deity of Jesus and the personality of the Spirit caused problems for the strict, monotheistic (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM), early believers.
Tertullian — subordinated the Son to the Father
Origen — subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
Arius — denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
Monarchianism — believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God as Father, then Son, and then Spirit

The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate
There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
Dr. Utley

Don't "slam-dunk" me because of the source, since I am always looking for resources and live in South Africa with no in-depth study tools available here.
I just hope @marks is not going to rap me over the knuckles.
But all in all, a good and helpful source and hope it will help you.
J.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Jesus IS God. He is the Word and was in at the beginning. He spoke the word and it was created.

John 1:1-4
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

So how do people argue against that?

Argue? So I guess now someone disagreeing with you is arguing? That would mean since you disagree with me, you're arguing. Is that what we are to do, argue with one another? I can understand someone disagreeing with me because they honestly believe that what they believe is biblical. That doesn't necessarily mean what they honestly believe to be biblical is biblical, but that is what they honestly believe to be biblical, I don't consider that arguing, we just disagree.
The Word is the Only Begotten Son of God, so when that scripture at John 1:4 says the Word became flesh, which my understanding of the Word becoming flesh means the Word became human, then John 1:14 is saying it was the Only Begotten Son of God that became human and dwelt among humanity or mankind.
I have found no scripture that tells us we must believe Jesus to be God to get eternal life or that if we deny Jesus is God we will not get eternal life, but scripture does tell us if we deny Jesus to be the Son of God we will not get eternal life. One of those scriptures is well known to many people which is John 3:16, 17. That is just one of many scriptures that show us we must believe God sent his Only Begotten Son as a ransom sacrifice for mankind or humanity and those who exercise faith in this loving act that YHWH God and his Only Begotten Son has done for us we will get eternal life.
 

Pearl

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Argue? So I guess now someone disagreeing with you is arguing?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

So how do people argue against that?

I wasn't talking about people arguing with me bur arguing with the scriptures.
 

marks

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The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
The following is something I wrote some years ago,

The Trinity

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, Elohim created. . .”

The basic Hebrew word for God is EL, and this is a singular form. Hebrew has two plural suffixes, for dual and plural (3 or more). Elohim is the plural form for “God”, which is a very strange way to speak of Him.

In Deuteronomy 6:4 we read “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”

In Hebrew, this is “YHWH Elohim, YHWH echad” – echad means, at its root, to be unified. It’s first usage in the Bible is Genesis 1:4 “and there was evening, and there was morning, one day” – a day made of two parts that were unified. Echad is used of one object or person, but is also used of compound unities, such as the first day. Echad is used of the married couple “the two shall become one (echad) flesh”

“YHWH Elohim (Plural God) YHWH unified” This leads us to the doctrine called The Trinity, or Triune God. This is what we find as we study the Bible. God identifies Himself as YHWH, but also is called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these are separate and distinct persons, each are God, and yet we know the “LORD is One.”

Perhaps the clearest picture of our Triune God is at the baptism of Jesus.

Matthew 3:16 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was not the same Person. There was One speaking in heaven, One descending from heaven to earth, and One standing upon the earth.

The Father said, "This is My Son, in Whom I am well pleased." The Father recognized that the Son was Someone other than Himself, rather, His Son.

Some other verses that speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God with us).

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit

Each are called God:

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Each acts in the same capacities as God:

Creating:

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

Colossians 1:16 (speaking of Jesus) For by him were all things created,

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psalm 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

John 1:3 (of Jesus) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gives to us eternal life:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Raised Jesus from the dead:

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

Everywhere at once (omnipresent):

Jereriah 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Ephesians 1:23 (speaking of Jesus) Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Psalm 139:7-8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Saves us:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 3:4-6 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So we find in the scripture that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each individuals, each are God, and that there is only One God. There are many ways people use to try to describe or understand this doctrine (teaching) of the Trinity, all fall short.

Much love!
 

Pearl

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I would say simply that we know we are made in God's image because the bible tells us that. And we each have three parts - Body, mind and spirit but all three are us so why do people think it isn't the same for God?
 
J

Johann

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1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

So how do people argue against that?

I wasn't talking about people arguing with me bur arguing with the scriptures.



6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

7. John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.“

Acts 20:28 “Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.“

SPECIAL TOPIC: CONFESS-PROFESS
 
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APAK

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Robert..it almost sounds like.."Did God say...?"
I have shown you numerous scriptures that Christ is God and in NO way inferior to the Father.
There's a humanistic view and approach to the Scriptures which don't sit well with me.


Job_5:9 Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvelous things without number:

Job_36:26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not; the number of his years is unsearchable.

Psa_145:3 Great is the LORD, and highly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

Pro_25:3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

Rom_11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!

Eph_3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

We must become less, that our great God and Savior may receive the highest eulogy and...


Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God.

Php_2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,..

No room for intellectual boasting friend, it is all Mashiach and none of self, or all of self and none of Christ, no one foot in the basileia and the other in the kosmos.
There are many members in the body, and each member has his/her own gift given to us from..


1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; it is not therefore not of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; it is not therefore not of the body.
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members each one of them in the body, even as it pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now they are many members, but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of thee: or again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be more feeble are necessary:
1Co 12:23 and those parts of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness;
1Co 12:24 whereas our comely parts have no need: but God tempered the body together, giving more abundant honour to that part which lacked;
1Co 12:25 that there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffereth, all the members suffer with it; or one member is honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And a still more excellent way shew I unto you.

What is the more excellent hodos?
J.
Johann, stop keep embarrassing yourself. Show me any one verse in your scripture list of this post of yours where you can prove or strongly persuade someone Christ is God, just one. In fact let me choose it for you since you have so much confidence in yourself, Romans 14:11. Write a short commentary as to why you can say this verse clearly says Christ is God. I want to read it.

And be ready for a rebuttal. Thanks
 
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Pearl

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6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

7. John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.“

Acts 20:28 “Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.“

SPECIAL TOPIC: CONFESS-PROFESS
And Thomas called Jesus 'my God' but I have heard the JWs answer to that is that it was like saying OMG.
Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.“
Abraham signed his covenant with god with his own blood and that of his household, God himself shed his blood to sign the new covenant between God and man.
 

Pearl

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Johann, stop keep embarrassing yourself. Show me any one verse in your scripture list of this post of yours where you can prove or strongly persuade someone Christ is God, just one. In fact let me choose it for you since you have so much confidence in yourself, Romans 14:11. Write a short commentary as to why you can say this verse clearly says Christ is God. I want to read it.

And be ready for a rebuttal. Thanks
True Christians don't need proof to be persuaded they already believe. And plenty of scripture has already been posted. But still people who call themselves Christian still won't believe.
 
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Johann

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The following is something I wrote some years ago,

The Trinity

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, Elohim created. . .”

The basic Hebrew word for God is EL, and this is a singular form. Hebrew has two plural suffixes, for dual and plural (3 or more). Elohim is the plural form for “God”, which is a very strange way to speak of Him.

In Deuteronomy 6:4 we read “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”

In Hebrew, this is “YHWH Elohim, YHWH echad” – echad means, at its root, to be unified. It’s first usage in the Bible is Genesis 1:4 “and there was evening, and there was morning, one day” – a day made of two parts that were unified. Echad is used of one object or person, but is also used of compound unities, such as the first day. Echad is used of the married couple “the two shall become one (echad) flesh”

“YHWH Elohim (Plural God) YHWH unified” This leads us to the doctrine called The Trinity, or Triune God. This is what we find as we study the Bible. God identifies Himself as YHWH, but also is called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these are separate and distinct persons, each are God, and yet we know the “LORD is One.”

Perhaps the clearest picture of our Triune God is at the baptism of Jesus.

Matthew 3:16 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was not the same Person. There was One speaking in heaven, One descending from heaven to earth, and One standing upon the earth.

The Father said, "This is My Son, in Whom I am well pleased." The Father recognized that the Son was Someone other than Himself, rather, His Son.

Some other verses that speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God with us).

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit

Each are called God:

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Each acts in the same capacities as God:

Creating:

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

Colossians 1:16 (speaking of Jesus) For by him were all things created,

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psalm 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

John 1:3 (of Jesus) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gives to us eternal life:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Raised Jesus from the dead:

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

Everywhere at once (omnipresent):

Jereriah 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Ephesians 1:23 (speaking of Jesus) Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Psalm 139:7-8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Saves us:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 3:4-6 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So we find in the scripture that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each individuals, each are God, and that there is only One God. There are many ways people use to try to describe or understand this doctrine (teaching) of the Trinity, all fall short.

Much love!

Thank you so much marks, I really appreciate this.
I really do.
Shalom to you and family.
J.
 
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Waiting on him

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1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

So how do people argue against that?

I wasn't talking about people arguing with me bur arguing with the scriptures.
Yes, this is the beginning. When the light came into the world

first century.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

So how do people argue against that?

I wasn't talking about people arguing with me bur arguing with the scriptures.

I understand that people don't agree with what this scripture is saying and this disagreement has been going on for centuries. Some say that this scripture is saying that Jesus who is the Word is God and others say that Jesus who is the Word is the Only Begotten Son of God. So because of these two groups that disagree those who believe Jesus is the Word and so is God believe that John 1:14 is saying God became flesh/human and dwelt among mankind and those who believe Jesus is the Word and is the Only Begotten Son of God believes that John 1:14 is saying it was the Only Begotten Son of God who became flesh/human and dwelt among mankind.
 

APAK

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True Christians don't need proof to be persuaded they already believe. And plenty of scripture has already been posted. But still people who call themselves Christian still won't believe.
Pearl what are you really trying to say? I really do not want to speculate here.
 

Pearl

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Pearl what are really try to say? I really do not want to speculate here.

Johann, stop keep embarrassing yourself. Show me any one verse in your scripture list of this post of yours where you can prove or strongly persuade someone Christ is God, just one. In fact let me choose it for you since you have so much confidence in yourself, Romans 14:11. Write a short commentary as to why you can say this verse clearly says Christ is God. I want to read it.

You seem to be amongst those who deny the deity of christ. If that isn't so then I aologise - but it's what I got from the above post.
 

APAK

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You seem to be amongst those who deny the deity of christ. If that isn't so then I aologise - but it's what I got from the above post.
I'm not trying to be harsh here although I do want to summarize what you are writing in this last post and others I have read. It is a 'frightening' conclusion to me, and I cannot apologize for what I read.

You are saying then that those that who believe in the deity of Christ, means he is also God Almighty, the Messiah is also God, the birth given to Mary is also God, the one who died on the Cross is also God. The one who rose to Heaven, is also God. In fact you can get your rubber stamp out and stamp on every word in scripture where you find the words Jesus or Christ or Lord and stamp it GOD. And of course, scripture does not need to be verified or authenticated to know this as fact. True believers already know this as they have been taught by men of cloth...and not necessarily by the Spirit of truth.
 

Raccoon1010

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Do you consider a Colonel inferior to a General Joe? If so then Jesus would be inferior. The Bible doesn't speak about it in that way per se, but as I showed you in Scripture Jesus is subject to Jehovah. Sitting at God's right hand signifies position. Did you read 1 Cor 11:3? Do you have an alternate explanation? If you do not believe me, will you listen to Jesus who said the Father is greater than I? Jn 14:28

Do you consider a woman "inferior" to a man? She is subject to him, the same way that man is subject to Jesus, the same way that Jesus is subject to God. Jesus is not equal to Jehovah sir.
Yes that is correct. We have two words to use, Father and Son, and who is superior, Father or Son. Is the Son of endless time greater than the Father of endless time?
 
J

Johann

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And be ready for a rebuttal. Thanks

Friend, nothing on this planet, demon, or even you is going to convince me otherwise.
I'm going to give you ONE verse and there is not going to be a debate or a "rebuttal"

Tit_2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

I have come to know my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and my heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit through experience, working in my life in my darkest moments.
I have seldom see the mountaintop in my life but Christ Jesus is putting me in the refiners fire more than seven times.
In the "valleys" is my life story giving all glory and the highest eulogy to Him who is worthy to be praised.
You are conversing with a "dead man" friend, and do put that pride of yours aside, it is not becoming to such a man as yourself.
I have nothing to prove to you brother and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You don't know me, I don't know you and it is better that way.
Hit that ignore button since you know it all and are able to fully "exegete" the living, trice holy Father, the living unsearchable God, the immutable omniscience of my Lord Christ Jesus
I do hope I have made myself clear and not speaking in cryptic "lingo"
J.
 
J

Johann

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I'm going to give you ONE verse and there is not going to be a debate or a "rebuttal"

"our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" Jesus is here unambiguously given the title of God! The Caesars claimed similar titles (i.e., Ptolemy I). The terms "appearing" (which contextually relates to Christ's Second Coming) and "great" are never used of YHWH. Also, there is no article with "savior." The syntax of Koine Greek supports this as a title for Jesus because there is only one article with both nouns, thus linking them together (see NET Bible). Jesus is divine (cf. Joh_1:1; Joh_8:57-58; Joh_20:28; Rom_9:5; Php_2:6; 2Th_1:12; Heb_1:8; 2Pe_1:1; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_5:20). In the OT the Messiah (see Special Topic at 1Ti_1:1) was expected to be a divinely empowered person like the Judges. His deity surprised everyone (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM at 1Ti_2:5)!

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου


Of the great God - There can be little doubt, if any, that by “the great God” here, the apostle referred to the Lord Jesus, for it is not a doctrine of the New Testament that God himself as such, or in contradistinction from his incarnate Son, will appear at the last day. It is said, indeed, that the Saviour will come “in the glory of his Father, with his angels” Mat_16:27, but that God as such will appear is not taught in the Bible. The doctrine there is, that God will be manifest in his Son; that the divine approach to our world be through him to judge the race; and that though he will be accompanied with the appropriate symbols of the divinity, yet it will be the Son of God who will be visible. No one, accustomed to Paul’s views, can well doubt that when he used this language he had his eye throughout on the Son of God, and that he expected no other manifestation than what would be made through him.
In no place in the New Testament is the phrase ἐπιφάνειαν τοῦ Θεοῦ epiphaneian tou Theou - “the manifestation or appearing of God” - applied to any other one than Christ It is true that this is spoken of here as the “appearing of the glory - τῆς δόξης tēs doxēs - of the great God,” but the idea is that of such a manifestation as became God, or would appropriately display his glory. It is known to most persons who have attended to religious controversies, that this passage has given rise to much discussion. The ancients, in general, interpreted it as meaning” The glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.” This sense has been vindicated by the labors of Beza, Whitby, Bull, Matthaei, and Middleton (on the Greek article), and is the common interpretation of those who claim to be orthodox; see Bloomfield, Rec. Syn., and Notes, in loc. He contends that the meaning is, “the glorious appearance of that great being who is our God and Saviour.” The arguments for this opinion are well summed up by Bloomfield. Without going into a critical examination of this passage, which would not be in accordance with the design of these Notes, it may be remarked in general:
(1) That no plain reader of the New Testament, accustomed to the common language there, would have any doubt that the apostle referred here to the coming of the Lord Jesus.
(2) That the “coming” of God, as such, is not spoken of in this manner in the New Testament.
(3) That the expectation of Christians was directed to the advent of the ascended Saviour, not to the appearing of God as such.
(4) That this is just such language as one would use who believed that the Lord Jesus is divine, or that the name God might properly be applied to him.
(5) That it would naturally and obviously convey the idea that he was divine, to one who had no theory to defend.
(6) That if the apostle did not mean this, he used such language as was fitted to lead people into error.
(7) And that the fair construction of the Greek here, according to the application of the most rigid rules, abundantly sustains the interpretation which the plain reader of the New Testament would affix to it. The names above referred to are abundant proof that no violation is done to the rules of the Greek language by this interpretation, but rather that the fair construction of the original demands it. If this be so, then this furnishes an important proof of the divinity of Christ.

I am convinced and firmly persuaded that Christ is God.

The Trinity

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, Elohim created. . .”

The basic Hebrew word for God is EL, and this is a singular form. Hebrew has two plural suffixes, for dual and plural (3 or more). Elohim is the plural form for “God”, which is a very strange way to speak of Him.

In Deuteronomy 6:4 we read “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”

In Hebrew, this is “YHWH Elohim, YHWH echad” – echad means, at its root, to be unified. It’s first usage in the Bible is Genesis 1:4 “and there was evening, and there was morning, one day” – a day made of two parts that were unified. Echad is used of one object or person, but is also used of compound unities, such as the first day. Echad is used of the married couple “the two shall become one (echad) flesh”

“YHWH Elohim (Plural God) YHWH unified” This leads us to the doctrine called The Trinity, or Triune God. This is what we find as we study the Bible. God identifies Himself as YHWH, but also is called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these are separate and distinct persons, each are God, and yet we know the “LORD is One.”

Perhaps the clearest picture of our Triune God is at the baptism of Jesus.

Matthew 3:16 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was not the same Person. There was One speaking in heaven, One descending from heaven to earth, and One standing upon the earth.

The Father said, "This is My Son, in Whom I am well pleased." The Father recognized that the Son was Someone other than Himself, rather, His Son.

Some other verses that speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God with us).

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit

Each are called God:

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Each acts in the same capacities as God:

Creating:

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

Colossians 1:16 (speaking of Jesus) For by him were all things created,

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psalm 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

John 1:3 (of Jesus) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gives to us eternal life:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.