False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Davy]

I find nothing in Scripture that says …
“Pre-trib rapture theory”.

I find NOTHING in Bible Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation", but instead a teaching by Jesus Christ that He gathers His Church AFTER the tribulation. Thus your starting point in God's Word on the matter must... be the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture where Jesus showed that, but is an area of God's Word that you have been wrongly taught by pre-trib preachers to flat disregard. Therefore, you are not listening to God in His Word on the matter, but instead to men.

 

[Davy]

The hills and mountain tops were covered with water.

The Ark as on the face of the water…Above the mountains.

LOL…seems you are wholly unaware above the mountain tops…IS the sky!

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

I have already shown, FROM BIBLE SCRIPTURE, how Revelation 12:11-17 is compared to the time of Noah's flood. And that Revelation Scripture instead shows the "serpent" (Satan) casting "OUT OF HIS MOUTH WATER AS A FLOOD" at the symbolic "woman", which verse 17 shows is Christ's Church at the end that keeps the commandments of God and has the Testimony of Jesus Christ!

My teacher is the high priest of God.

Your teachers are men's doctrines, you instead listen and heed them. That's why you have yet to show any Bible Scripture that supports a pre-trib rapture.

Odd you find Gods approved teaching FUNNY and are of the character to attempt to discourage another from believing Gods approved teaching.

God is listening!

God is not only listening to what the false prophets say, but notes who listens to them instead of Him in His Word of Truth.

 

[Davy]

Disagree with you.



Yep…I have already testified to that fact.



Disagree.

During the “Lambs” wrath…the Lambs 7 Seals Judgements…
* men having become Confessed Believers ARE bodily Killed and souls saved.

The saved souls…WAIT (on earth) for more believers to Confess and become saved.

During the “Devils” wrath…and Gods 7 Trump Judgements…More men (Jews, ISRAEL, Gentiles OF the whole world) become Confessed Believers, their bodies KILLED, their souls saved…and collectively…their Saved souls, rise to Heaven.

It’s a period of time…Men upon the face of the earth are Experiencing…
The Lambs wrath (for unbelief in Him)
(During the Seals judgements.)
The Devils wrath (for unbelief in him).
(during the Trumps judgements.)

Men upon the face of the earth MAKING their last and final effort to CONFESS their BELIEF IN WHO.

The masses believing in the Lord God…ARE (all but a few), Bodily Killed, soul saved, their souls all together rise to heaven. Their dead body’s remain ON EARTH.

The masses REJECTING the Lord God and those IN Allegiance to Satan….REMAIN…bodily alive with their unsaved soul ON EARTH.

Then commences Gods Wrath and 7 bowl Judgements poured out upon the Remaining (anti-Christ/God)….men.

* NOT ONCE ARE the DEAD BODIES of the souls saved During the Tribulation RISEN UP TO HEAVEN!

Their Departed saved souls RISE UP TO HEAVEN.
Their DEAD Bodies REMAIN ON EARTH.
THEIR BODY’S WAIT FOR …
AFTER….Christ Jesus 1,000 yrs reign.
TO BE….Bodily Risen; called (RESURRECTION)…
TO BE….Bodily MADE WHOLE, called
(REDEEMED)….Glorified
TO HAVE…Their Saved soul returned to their Risen Resurrected, Redeemed, Body…(ON Earth) and receive their QUICKENING…Gods Seed, REBIRTH, born Again spirit…that THEY ARE THEN and forever MADE WHOLLY, WHOLE, HOLY….body, soul, spirit.
(And remain ON Earth…)

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN…RAPTURED…which only pertains to Christ’s Church…
IS:…Before the last days Trib.
IS:…While they ARE STILL bodily alive…
IS:…For also they who bodily Died IN Christ
IS:…The Willingly Pledge a Truth to the Lord God…to Give their dead body unto Him, to Confess their True Belief….
IS:….THEIR BODY, is according to Gods order and way…Accepted AS DEAD, Crucified with Jesus….Already GIVEN a “restored” SAVED soul….Already Quickened, having RECEIVED Gods SEED and their born again spirit…
Their “crucified” body IS ALREADY “WASHED” cleansed, in Jesus’ Blood..

WHAT THESE FEW “DID” while ALIVE upon the face of the EARTH….WAS…
According to Gods OFFERING, ORDER and WAY… FOR THEM TO…

Become Forgiven…AND MADE WHOLE…body and soul and spirit!!
(Called a mans Living Sacrifice)….

Before the last days trib, wrath and destruction and suffering SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN…
THOSE ALREADY…who are “IN Christ”,
WHO ARE ALREADY MADE “new creatures”,
Who ARE ALREADY MADE “whole”,

** HAVE ZERO BUSINESS OR PURPOSE ON EARTH “DURING THE TRIB”
* They are NOT appointed to suffer Wrath.
* They are NOT hanging out Deciding to Confess Belief.
* They are NOT traveling about PREACHING the Gospel. (God has sent/ shall sent…. Two witnesses, a Lamb, 144,000 of Israel, an Angel….to Preach to ALL of Israel and ALL Gentiles of the whole world!)
(** and BTW, WHY men who reject the pre-trib Rapture…CAN NOT DESCRIBE ONE THING the CONVERTED IN CHRIST are supposedly DOING ON EARTH during the Trib…and thus AVOID the question)

SO…REVIEW the FACTS…

* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “CONVERTED”.
* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “MADE WHOLE.”
* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “NEW CREATURES”.
* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “SEALED”.
* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “born OF God”.
* ONLY those “IN” Christ HAVE “Gods spirit IN THEM”.
* ONLY those “IN” CHRIST….”WHOLLY, WHOLE”…( BODY, soul & spirit) RISE UP TO MEET THEIR Lord IN the clouds /air!!!

SAVED…departed souls who ARE NOT…members of Christ’s Church…
IT IS THEIR departed (out of their body’s) saved souls that rise up to Heaven…….NOT THEIR BODY’S!!!
THEY WAIT for their DEAD BODY’s (ON EARTH) to BE RESURRECTED…(ON EARTH)…NOT resurrected TO Heaven!

If you have not yet figured it out…
RAPTURE ONLY APPLIES to Christ’s Church Members…..

BECAUSE “they HAVE BEEN MADE WHOLE”…and REDEEMED…
BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT…and WITH the Lord, wherever HE IS…lower heavens, clouds, air, earth….<—-> THAT IS NOT THE CASE for “saved souls’…whose body is still dead in its grave ON Earth!”

SO ….NO….THERE IS NOT A PRE-TRIB “RAPTURE”……..AND A “POST-TRIB” RAPTURE…

BODY’S (OF THOSE WHO DIED IN BELIEF…BUT NON-CONFESSED THUS NOT CONVERTED WHILE BODILY ALIVE…
SHALL BE RAISED FOR JUDGEMENT AFTER THE TRIB… ARE RAISED UP OUT OF THEIR EARTHEN GRAVE TO THE FACE OF THE EARTH…
THOSE BODY’S ARE NOT RAISE UP TO THE CLOUDS, THE AIR, OR HEAVEN!!
And precisely WHY, it is NOT called properly (by men), nor ever in Scripture called a “RAPTURE” … (regarding THEM).
It is a RESURRECTION!

A Resurrection…IS:
When a body dies…
It’s living soul departs out of the body.
When a living soul RETURNS to a dead body,
The Body revives, Returns to being Alive, resumes Living….

That has ZERO to do with the “soul” being SAVED or not.

All souls belong to God.
All LIFE IN all souls belongs to God.
All natural bodies LIFE is Blood.
ALL natural bodies SHALL, MUST DIE
(God Requires that.)
A living soul DEPARTS a dead body.
A living soul RETURNED to a dead body, IS by, through, of the will and Power of God.

EVERY living soul SHALL return to EVERY Dead body…and those BODY”S SHALL then Stand before the Judge, BOW DOWN and Worship the Judge…ON their Judgement Day…and receive their Judgement and Sentence.

Learn the difference between a Rapture and Resurrection and Redemption and Damnation.

Only Christ’s Church is Raptured.
All others shall be Resurrected.
Of ALL the Resurrected, SOME will be Redeemed. (Claimed and Sealed by God).
Those NOT Redeemed, Shall be Damned..

Those of us who 'know' man's false pre-trib rapture is NOT written anywhere in God's Word, but is a doctrine from men, realize how you have been taught to rely on SLOGANS and SAYINGS like you show above, instead of actual Bible Scripture.

 

[The Light]

I find NOTHING in Bible Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation", but instead a teaching by Jesus Christ that He gathers His Church AFTER the tribulation.

That's not the Church being raptured after the tribulation. The Church is already in heaven as He comes in an hour that you think not. There is a reason there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes as they are the second harvest.

Thus your starting point in God's Word on the matter must... be the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27

No you have the wrong starting point. It starts with the Church as He comes in hour that you think not.

Scripture where Jesus showed that, but is an area of God's Word that you have been wrongly taught by pre-trib preachers to flat disregard. Therefore, you are not listening to God in His Word on the matter, but instead to men.

Clearly you are listening to unbelieving men whose doctrine is based on their unbelief.

 

[Taken]

@The Light
@Douggg

@Keraz is steeped in carnal minded logical understanding, and speaks in general terms of spiritual “things”, THUS the “literal DETAILS OF Spiritual Understanding” is out of his grasp to Accept or Comprehend.

Some Believe IN other gods.

Some Believe IN no gods.

Some Believe IN God, even believe IN Jesus having “particular” powers from God…BUT YET Reject Jesus, AS Gods Christ Messiah.

Some TEEDER, believing IN God, then NOT sure.

Some TEEDER, believing IN Jesus, then NOT sure.

Some Believe IN God, AND Gods Word, But DID NOT KNOW, or were NOT convinced JESUS, IS Gods Word.

Some Believe IN God, AND Jesus IS Gods Christ Messiah.

FEW Believe IN God, AND Jesus IS Gods Christ Messiah, AND B] THE “ONE” HIGHLIGHT that DISTINGUISHES THOSE FEW FROM “ALL OTHERS” …. [/B]
WHICH IS:
“THOSE FEW unlike ALL Others;
Call OUT TO THE ONE NAMED JESUS, AND
**CONFESStheir TRUE Heartful BELIEF “IN” God and “IN” Jesus being Gods Christ Messiah [/B]

AND those SAME “FEW”…. ARE EXCEPTED FROM suffering Gods End of Days TRIBULATIONS AND WRATH…According TO the ORDER, WAY, MANNER…God (NOT MEN), HAS Decided, Chose, to KEEP “HIS FAITHFUL”, FROM the Punishment Judgements of Gods Tribulations and Wrath, God SHALL SEND UPON ALL MEN, UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

Because…DUH…UH….the Lord God…IS NOT Angry, Disappointed, Jealous, Sad…ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL FEW WHO HAVE Trusted, willingly Surrendered the WHOLE (body, soul, spirit) of their lives UNTO the Lord God.

** Can you IMAGINE…A JUST Lord God…
KEEPING His FAITHFUL…UPON the Face of the Earth…
Seeing, men being crushed, heads bashed in, Limbs ripped off, men being burned, screaming in agony, watching birds pick and tearing their dead body’s apart eating them, and the Putrid Stench of Burned Flesh and Sinking smell of Rotting Bodies …
* Precisely WHAT the Lord God HAS PROMISED FOR “those He has MADE WHOLE”, must experience?
Uh No!


A Carnal minded Bottom LINE… those BELIEF’S are ALL ABOUT … Men through the Centuries ManKIND has Existed.

A Quickened Spirit’s Spiritual Understanding….. God has Promised Peace, Rest, Joy, FOR the FEW, who willingly Choose to Surrender their WHOLE (body, soul, spirit) unto Him.

Their REWARD, IS TO neither experience hell IN the Earth or experience in a similitude of hell ON Earth.

And…Gods end of days Tribulations Sent down from Heaven…IS Expressly UPON “ALL” of those who dwell UPON the Earth!
(Not some….”ALL”).

Luke 21:
[35] For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

@ Keraz…In those days…of Gods sent Tribulations…
IF ONE IS UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH…
(AS you teach and preach) Gods tribulations, wrath has been established, foretold, IS FOR YOU….

ENJOY the sights, sounds, smells of horrific, burning, putrid stinking dead bodies. Eweee!

Glory to God in His infinite grace and wisdom to Keep His Faithful From such horrors.

 

[Taken]

I find NOTHING in Bible Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation",

Oh…then perhaps you could point out “the Biblical Scriptures” of “the Church”
Presence ON the face of the Earth..DURING the Tribulation sent down from Heaven UPON ALL that are Dwelling UPON the Face of the Earth…

Where exactly UPON the Face of the Earth IS the church?
What exactly IS the Church DOING while upon the Face of the Earth DURING the days Tribulations ARE sent down from Heaven?

I can FIND NOTHING IN Scripture which speaks to the Church being present During the days Gods Sending Tribulations Down from Heaven to EARTH…
No mention of the Church, No mention of what the Church is doing…

However I DO FIND “expressly” the Church (aka CALLED Those individuals “IN” Christ and the SAME whom Christ IS “IN”…
BEING RISEN UP OFF the Face of the Earth…
DOING, AKA engaging IN a MEETING WITH with their Lord.

Obviously YOU will NOT be two places at ONCE…

Either the CHURCH WILL Be ON the Face of the Earth…
* To WHICH NO scripture reveals THEY ARE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH…during the Tribulations sent down from Heaven.
* To WHICH NO scripture reveals ANYTHING About the CHURCH DOING ANYTHING ON the Face of the Earth…during the tribulations sent down from Heaven..

OR the CHURCH WILL be RISEN UP OFF the face of the EARTH…
* To WHICH Scripture EXPRESSLY reveals that knowledge…
( to WHICH scripture EXPRESSLY reveals what they ARE DOING…aka having. Meeting with their Lord.

You have a dilemma …

 

[Davy]

Oh…then perhaps you could point out “the Biblical Scriptures” of “the Church”
Presence ON the face of the Earth..DURING the Tribulation sent down from Heaven UPON ALL that are Dwelling UPON the Face of the Earth…

Where exactly UPON the Face of the Earth IS the church?
What exactly IS the Church DOING while upon the Face of the Earth DURING the days Tribulations ARE sent down from Heaven?

I can FIND NOTHING IN Scripture which speaks to the Church being present During the days Gods Sending Tribulations Down from Heaven to EARTH…
No mention of the Church, No mention of what the Church is doing…

However I DO FIND “expressly” the Church (aka CALLED Those individuals “IN” Christ and the SAME whom Christ IS “IN”…
BEING RISEN UP OFF the Face of the Earth…
DOING, AKA engaging IN a MEETING WITH with their Lord.

Obviously YOU will NOT be two places at ONCE…

Either the CHURCH WILL Be ON the Face of the Earth…
* To WHICH NO scripture reveals THEY ARE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH…during the Tribulations sent down from Heaven.
* To WHICH NO scripture reveals ANYTHING About the CHURCH DOING ANYTHING ON the Face of the Earth…during the tribulations sent down from Heaven..

OR the CHURCH WILL be RISEN UP OFF the face of the EARTH…
* To WHICH Scripture EXPRESSLY reveals that knowledge…
( to WHICH scripture EXPRESSLY reveals what they ARE DOING…aka having. Meeting with their Lord.

You have a dilemma …

You have already... been shown, but you reject... what Lord Jesus Himself showed us that His future coming is AFTER... the tribulation to gather His elect saints. Not only in Christ's Olivet discourse did He show that, but Apostle Paul also showed it in the 2 Thessalonians 2 Chapter that Jesus' coming to gather His Church will happen when Jesus comes to destroy that false one, the "man of sin".

2 Thess 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
KJV

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
KJV



Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

 

[Taken]

Jesus Christ that He gathers His Church AFTER the tribulation.

Thus your starting point in God's Word on the matter must...
be the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27

Matthew 24:
[29]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days

Tribulations, sent down from Heaven …Wars, False Christs, turmoil, PRECEDE the tribulations of THOSE DAYS.
Where IS the CHURCH PRYOR to THOSE DAYS?
What IS the CHURCH DOING doing during the days of False Christs, Wars, Woes?
WHEN…——>

shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[30] And then (after the wars, tribulations of THOSE DAYS ) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, ….

TRIBES of the EARTH??
Wait…IS THE “CHURCH” Called THE TRIBES?

uh, nope… you have already wandered OFF track.

and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Again…this Scripture is speaking of the TRIBES of and UPON the Earth, NOT Christs Church!

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

He shall GATHER WHO, from where? His Church? Doesn’t say so.
His Elect? Does say so.

So…WHO are the Lords SENT Angels Gathering FROM the Four Winds from One end of Heaven to the other?

If you studied Scripture, you should have Learned…The ELECT from ancient, historical, to this Day, IS…the Hebrews, Israel, the Tribes of ISRAEL…

Are YOU, Hebrew, Israel, of any Tribe of Israel?

I’m not…If you are not….WHY PRETEND those Scriptures APPLY to YOU, or me, or ANY Gentile? They Don’t.

Why PRETEND the Son of man has sent His Angels to “GATHER” Christ’s Church “AFTER” a portion (those days) of tribulations Sent down from Heaven and they experienced / woes / false Christs / wars ??

WHEN Scripture teaches …
The Lord has Given His Angel authority to SUMMON Christs Church UP to the Lord IN the Clouds.

WHEN Scripture teaches … AFTER tribulations OF THOSE DAYS sent down from Heaven it IS the TRIBES who are GATHERED together?

Don’t YOU KNOW…TO WHERE the TRIBES ON the face of the EARTH “ARE GATHERED TO”?

Scripture notifies you:
Who is gathered together..
Where they are gathered together…
When they are gathered together….
Why they are gathered together…

And that express particular gathering HAS NOTHING to do with the members OF Christ’s Church, who themselves are not present or participants of such Gathering.

You would do well to read and study scripture in Context of the FACTUAL Knowledge revealed…
The tribes are not the Church and the Church is not the tribes…

The Church IS ALREADY Sanctified, forgiven, cleansed, restored, quickened, MADE WHOLE, BY, THROUGH, OF Christ the Lord Jesus.

The Tribes (broadly) and a FEW for a brief time, Anciently, accepted Christ the Lord Jesus as their Christ Messiah, and became the Foundation and FIRST Members of Christ’s Church.

The Tribes (broadly), by and through fear, threats, pressure, oppression and negative consequence FROM MEN…. Broadly drifted AWAY from Accepting Jesus as their Christ Messiah.

God has prepared a Specific Time, Place, Purpose, Manner, to Gather together HIS ELECTED TRIBES, to BE Taught, Preached, Revealed the TRUTH of the Christ Jesus’ Gospel, BY, Through, Of, FROM their own Tribesmen WHO expressly Have Christ Jesus’ TRUTH IN THEIR MOUTHS, TO PREACH TO the tribes.

Again, that has NOTHING to do with Gentiles, or Gentiles already IN Christ and members OF Christs Church.















Scripture where Jesus showed that, but is an area of God's Word that you have been wrongly taught by pre-trib preachers to flat disregard. Therefore, you are not listening to God in His Word on the matter, but instead to men.

 

[Taken]

You have already... been shown, but you reject...

That Is a FALSE Accusation.

You attempt to APPLY inapplicable Scripture to Christ’s Church.

 

[Keraz]

@ Keraz…In those days…of Gods sent Tribulations…
IF ONE IS UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH…
(AS you teach and preach) Gods tribulations, wrath has been established, foretold, IS FOR YOU….

ENJOY the sights, sounds, smells of horrific, burning, putrid stinking dead bodies. Eweee!

Glory to God in His infinite grace and wisdom to Keep His Faithful From such horrors.

THIS is going to cost you.
You place yourself among the faithful, before any testing of your faith and you throw me; someone you have never met; into tribulation.
THEN, you demand God to rapture you to heaven.
Rapture believers are so deceived and deluded, they hardly know their right hand from the left.

 

[Davy]

Oh…then perhaps you could point out “the Biblical Scriptures” of “the Church”
Presence ON the face of the Earth..DURING the Tribulation sent down from Heaven UPON ALL that are Dwelling UPON the Face of the Earth…

Your post #1148 is not quotable, since you didn't properly post it. I would respond with quoting things in it you wrote, but it's just a waste anyway, because you are wrongly interpreting things in Scripture. For example, in Matthew 24:29, the "tribes" that mourn with seeing Jesus' coming ARE NOT CHRIST'S CHURCH. They are the unbelieving NATIONS that fear when they see Jesus coming in the clouds. You would know this if you had properly studied your Bible for yourself.

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

Those in Christ have no need... to cry and wail because of Christ's future coming. Instead, we, Christ's Church, WELCOME CHRIST'S FUTURE COMING. The ones who will instead wail will be the DECEIVED AND THE WICKED.

 

[Davy]

That Is a FALSE Accusation.

You attempt to APPLY inapplicable Scripture to Christ’s Church.

No... I did not make a false accusation. You have shown you reject the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is about Christ's future coming AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints, which is about His gathering of the Church.

 

[Davy]

False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

No such thing as the “Secret Rapture”.

The “catching up” TO the Clouds to meet the Lord in the air….

Applies exclusively to Christ Jesus’ Church members…THEY IN Christ.

Nothing Secret…
They Know WHO they ARE..and WHY.
The Lord KNOWS WHO they ARE…and WHY.

John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain, the first one to preach a Pre-trib Rapture theory in a Christian Church, pointed to his pre-trib rapture as a SECRET COMING by Jesus prior to the tribulation. That's where the 'secret' idea came from, from Darby. The pre-trib rapture school later tried to drop that 'secret' idea.

 

[Davy]

Your comment reflects your utter lack of Understanding …
* Christ Jesus DID NOT SUFFER “Tribulation” from God.
* Christ Jesus DID NOT SUFFER “Wrath of God.”

Here's one of your early fine examples of Bible scholarship.

The coming "great tribulation" that Jesus Christ warned His faithful Church about has nothing to do with His 1st coming Ministry on earth. So your statement that Jesus did not suffer tribulation is bogus.

Same with your "Christ Jesus did not suffer "Wrath of God" statement. Of course Jesus didn't suffer that because He will be The One That will bring that "cup of wrath" upon the DECEIVED AND WICKED on the LAST DAY of this world when He comes to gather His FAITHFUL Church (Rev.16; Rev.19; Rev.6 with the 6th Seal, etc.).

* Nor SHALL those Converted “IN” Christ Jesus Suffer Tribulation from God.

Wrong.
You should read and heed what Apostle Paul said in Acts 14:22 that those in Christ must go through much tribulation to enter the kingdom of God.

So far, your made-up slogans are batting 1,000 for NOT being written in God's Word.

* Nor SHALL those Converted “IN” Christ Jesus Suffer Wrath.

You got that one only partially... correct, because the pre-trib doctors wrongly claim the "wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is about Satan's wrath during the great tribulation. It isn't, that "wrath" of 1 Thess.5 is about GOD'S CUP OF WRATH ON THE LAST DAY OF THIS WORLD, ON THE 7TH TRUMPET and 7th Vial of Revelation 16. And in 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul was teaching about the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived and wicked on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful saints.

Paul thus says it's God's cup of wrath that those in Christ are NOT appointed to, not Satan's wrath during the trib. The Church will go through the tribulation.

SAME as Jesus Christ SUFFERED, Tribulation and Wrath….Instigated, Promoted, Effected BY HUMAN MEN….So ALSO DO Converted “IN” Christ, HUMAN MEN suffer tribulations and wrath from human men.

God's Word does NOT switch such terms as 'wrath' and 'tribulation' to Lord Jesus. Sure Lord Jesus suffered persecution and crucifixion, but it was still NOT the "wrath" of 1 Thess.5:9. So you CANNOT try and use that to apply to Paul's 1 Thess.5:9 verse.

So listen up, just one more time -- the "wrath" that Paul mentioned we are not appointed to in 1 Thess.5:9 is about GOD'S WRATH on the final 7th Vial. It is not Satan's wrath during the tribulation. What those on man's pre-trib rapture do with that 1 Thess.5:9 verse is THEY SKIP ALL THE PREVIOUS 1 THESS.5 VERSES THAT ARE WRITTEN PRIOR TO THAT 9TH VERSE. So their false coverage of verse 9 is a blatant disregard for God's Word as written. And those pre-trib preachers will... be held accountable to God for doing that.

Not ONCE Does the Lord God reveal men “IN” Christ Jesus SHALL BE UPON the face of the Earth to EXPERIENCE Gods Tribulations and Wrath foretold to be SENT Down upon the Occupants of the Whole Earth.

That is a blatant lie against God's written Word, for Lord Jesus Himself revealed that the saints WILL... go through the "great tribulation", and that ain't about some dreamed up tribulation Jew saints either. It is about Christ's Church (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; Revelation 13:4-8, 2 Thessalonians 2).

As for the Church still being on earth when Jesus comes to pour out His cup of wrath upon this earth and the wicked, Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15 taught on that "last trump" when that wrath happens that we shall all be changed, at the twinkling of an eye, to our spiritual body.

And the Daniel 3 example of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nigo being cast into the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary, with Neb seeing a 4th Man in there with them that had the likeness of The Son of God (Jesus), that's an example of how we can remain on earth and go through God's consuming fire and it shall not touch us, as when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nigo came out of that hot furnace, their clothes didn't even smell of smoke! But that protection by Christ Jesus is ONLY for those who remain waiting on HIS coming AFTER the tribulation as written.

It shall be in similitude as in the day of NOAH…..who he himself was raised UP above the Earth WHILE the Unrighteous were Killed by Water.

Christ used the flood of Noah to 'symbolically' show He will protect His Church to go THROUGH THE COMING TRIBULATION, as shown in the latter part of the Revelation 12 chapter about the symbolic "woman" that has the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

Your rejection of Gods PEACE and COMFORT plan for FAITHFUL manKIND, is hypocrisy on it’s face.

That is a FALSE ACCUSATION.

My comfort and peace IS IN JESUS CHRIST and in HIS WORD. You claiming it is not because I refuse to accept your ERROR of believing men's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, which is NOWHERE written in God's Word, shows that you are the one actually guilty of hypocrisy.

 

[Sparrow77]

I dont understand why people who do believe in christians not going through tribulations. Cannot explain why it says "After the tribulation" and also the verse saying " on the last trumpet."
No one who believes in the rapture has been able to explain away those two sentaces.

 

[Sparrow77]

Additionally its always a good practice to challenge why we believe what we believe, by asking the question where did it oringate from.
I would suggest looking up John Nelson Darby who invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD. All attempts to find evidence of this theory before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture. However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the rapture theory.
No hint of any approach to such belief can be found in any Christian literature before that.. Surely, a doctrine that finds no exponent or advocate in the whole history and literature of Christendom, for eighteen hundred years after the founding of the Church
Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul spoke of two. 1 Thes 4 has one and 1 Cor 15 the other.

Paul spoke of one rapture as did Christ.

I know. It's speaking of two raptures

I know. The other is for the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman.

There is one rapture and it is for Christians who remain alive.

Why is this a strawman? Do you or do you not have the Church on earth during the wrath of God.

The church is in the clouds when the wrath of God begins. I've never seen anyone claim the church is still here during the WOG. That's why this will always be a strawman...a belief I don't have, and so far no one here has.

Oh. Ok. The Church is not appointed to the wrath of God. And yet you have them going through the wrath of God.

No, I don't. A strawman is an invalid, make-believe position. It would be like me claiming you believe the church goes through the wrath of God.

There are 5 foolish and five wise. It's time to wise up.

And none of them are raptured before the trib. The rapture is the groom taking his brides, and it happens at the 7th trump/second coming. The trib is represented by the night and the buying and selling of oil in that night and the groom coming after all that proving the rapture is not before the trib.

 

[ewq1938]

Surely, a doctrine that finds no exponent or advocate in the whole history and literature of Christendom, for eighteen hundred years after the founding of the Church
Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

It's a far older doctrine.

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

Website For Essential Christianity Ministries

www.essentialchristianity.com

"At the time of the Protestant Reformation a major shift in how one interpreted the Bible caused the church to adjust in her views on the end times. Predominately under the Roman Catholic Church the Bible was interpreted allegorically. Scripture dealing with end times, prophetic texts, for the most part suffered from the hands of those who would not take the text literally. However, as the Reformation grew and as people began to return to a literal interpretation of the Bible the more people shifted to see that Christ was going to come back to earth to rule and reign. Many of the Puritans and Pilgrims, the 2nd generation of the Reformation movement, adopted the idea that not only was Christ going to reign on the earth but he would also translate his church saints before the awful time of his outpouring of wrath. Several of these scholars in some form or another held to a pre-tribulational rapture position.

1. Joseph Mede (1627): Clavis Apocalyptica

Some believe that he in this work made a distinction between the rapture of the saints in contrast to the second of Christ to earth.

2. Increase Mather (1639-1723)

Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.

3. Peter Jurieu (1687)

Peter Jurie in his book "Approaching Deliverance of the Church " (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon. He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon.

4. John Gill (1748)

Dr. John Gill was one of the most brilliant scholars of his day. This Calvinist Baptist theologian wrote a full commentary set on the Bible in 1748. In this commentary he made a statement in his notes on 1 Thessalonians 4 that supported a time difference between the rapture of the saints and the coming of Christ to earth. He said:

....here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noon-day; as yet He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He'll descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He'll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He'll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it....



5. Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University

Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:

"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more--, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the Father's house' (John 14:2).""

The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

When the prophet Daniel was given some specific prophecies about the end times, he complained to the Lord that he did not understand them.

christinprophecy.org

“Peter Jurieu in his book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to Heaven before the battle of Armageddon… Philip Doddridge’s commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill’s commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. It is clear these men believed that this coming will precede Christ’s descent to the earth and the time of judgment. The purpose was to preserve believers from the time of judgment. James Macknight (1763 ) and Thomas Scott (1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will be secure until the time of judgment is over.


Tommy Ice, the director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, asserts that the first person to spell out in detail the idea that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation begins was a Baptist leader named Morgan Edwards.4 This remarkable man was born in Wales and preached at churches in England and Ireland before emigrating to the United States in 1761 to become pastor of a church in Philadelphia. He proceeded to become the founder of Brown University and was recognized as the leading Baptist historian of his day.

As early as the 1740’s Edwards was espousing a pre-tribulational viewpoint in his writings about eschatology. The difference in his view and the modern Pre-Trib concept is that he believed the Rapture would occur in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, about 3 1/2 years before the Second Coming.

The Modern Pre-Trib View

The person who crystallized the modern Pre-Trib viewpoint was a man named John Darby (1800-1882) .”

Darby was obviously not the first to teach the pre-trib doctrine. Even Paul had to teach against the concept of Christ coming at any time so the idea existed when Paul was alive.

 

[Davy]

It's a far older doctrine.

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

Website For Essential Christianity Ministries

www.essentialchristianity.com

"At the time of the Protestant Reformation a major shift in how one interpreted the Bible caused the church to adjust in her views on the end times. Predominately under the Roman Catholic Church the Bible was interpreted allegorically. Scripture dealing with end times, prophetic texts, for the most part suffered from the hands of those who would not take the text literally. However, as the Reformation grew and as people began to return to a literal interpretation of the Bible the more people shifted to see that Christ was going to come back to earth to rule and reign. Many of the Puritans and Pilgrims, the 2nd generation of the Reformation movement, adopted the idea that not only was Christ going to reign on the earth but he would also translate his church saints before the awful time of his outpouring of wrath. Several of these scholars in some form or another held to a pre-tribulational rapture position.

1. Joseph Mede (1627): Clavis Apocalyptica

Some believe that he in this work made a distinction between the rapture of the saints in contrast to the second of Christ to earth.

2. Increase Mather (1639-1723)

Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.

3. Peter Jurieu (1687)

Peter Jurie in his book "Approaching Deliverance of the Church " (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon. He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon.

4. John Gill (1748)

Dr. John Gill was one of the most brilliant scholars of his day. This Calvinist Baptist theologian wrote a full commentary set on the Bible in 1748. In this commentary he made a statement in his notes on 1 Thessalonians 4 that supported a time difference between the rapture of the saints and the coming of Christ to earth. He said:

....here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noon-day; as yet He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He'll descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He'll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He'll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it....



5. Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University

Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:

"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more--, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the Father's house' (John 14:2).""

The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

When the prophet Daniel was given some specific prophecies about the end times, he complained to the Lord that he did not understand them.

christinprophecy.org

“Peter Jurieu in his book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to Heaven before the battle of Armageddon… Philip Doddridge’s commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill’s commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. It is clear these men believed that this coming will precede Christ’s descent to the earth and the time of judgment. The purpose was to preserve believers from the time of judgment. James Macknight (1763 ) and Thomas Scott (1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will be secure until the time of judgment is over.


Tommy Ice, the director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, asserts that the first person to spell out in detail the idea that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation begins was a Baptist leader named Morgan Edwards.4 This remarkable man was born in Wales and preached at churches in England and Ireland before emigrating to the United States in 1761 to become pastor of a church in Philadelphia. He proceeded to become the founder of Brown University and was recognized as the leading Baptist historian of his day.

As early as the 1740’s Edwards was espousing a pre-tribulational viewpoint in his writings about eschatology. The difference in his view and the modern Pre-Trib concept is that he believed the Rapture would occur in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, about 3 1/2 years before the Second Coming.

The Modern Pre-Trib View

The person who crystallized the modern Pre-Trib viewpoint was a man named John Darby (1800-1882) .”

Darby was obviously not the first to teach the pre-trib doctrine. Even Paul had to teach against the concept of Christ coming at any time so the idea existed when Paul was alive.

Darby WAS the first to preach a Pre-trib Rapture in a Christian Church.

Some pre-trib scholars are not beyond creating REVISIONIST CHURCH HISTORY, like the above writings.

SEE...

The Rapture Plot

What They Are Saying About ... THE RAPTURE PLOT! Gary D…

www.goodreads.com

 

[Timtofly]

Nope, afraid not.

Per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed emphatically that the time of His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


The Matthew 24:31 gathering of the Church is about the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4:13-16. Jesus brings those from heaven with Him when He comes, per Apostle Paul.

The Mark 13:27 verse is about the gathering of the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes, what many call a rapture. That is what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:17.

The Second Coming is after the church's tribulation of the last 1994 years. That is a different tribulation than the one the church will not be a part of.