False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[ewq1938]

Jesus is saying in that verse if the great tribulation were allowed to go on, all life on earth would be eradicated.

Wrong. Jesus spoke of something being made shorter, not something not being allowed to be longer. Your belief is not making it shorter but keeping it the same length by not allowing more time of tribulation but that is not what Jesus said or described. The trib was to be 7 years based on things Daniel wrote but that has been shortened so it is no longer as long as it used to be which means it is shorter than the original 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

The trib was to be 7 years based on things Daniel wrote but that has been shortened so it is no longer as long as it used to be which means it is shorter than the original 7 years.

Where are you getting that from?

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup in Daniel 12:11-12.

Wrong. Jesus spoke of something being made shorter, not something not being allowed to be longer.

Jesus never nullified that the great tribulation would be anything less than 1335 days.

 

[ewq1938]

Where are you getting that from?

Dan_9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Some believe this week is actually 7 years.

Jesus never nullified that the great tribulation would be anything less than 1335 days.

Jesus said the trib would be shortened, which means taking it at it's originally intended length and making it less long. It cannot be made longer or even kept at the same length. It has to be shorter than any length you find in the OT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

In Matthew 24:15-21, Jesus said that the great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation, that the prophet Daniel spoke of, standing in a holy place.

Daniel 12:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The great tribulation will 1335 days long. Ending when Jesus returns.

The great tribulation is not 7 years long.

---------------------------------------------------------

The mark of the beast law will not be enacted until the last 42 months of the 7 years. Revelation 13:16-18.

Heaven call it the great trib.
The great multitude are taken out of the great trib.
That started with the advent of the AC.
Jacob's trouble is the great trib.
The church removed pretrib the foolish virgins left behind ,and martyred.... THEN God deals with the wayward wife, the covenant Jews.
The gt begins with the white horse.
The AC.
Billions slaughtered.
THE Great trib ON THE SAINTS.
THE GREAT TRIBULATION...AS DECLARED BY HEAVEN.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Uh, no.
I read the word , " the ", to you.
If you want to assume it is not there then have at it.
You made it pivotal...not me.
Your doctrine, as is plain as day, literally depends on the omission of "the".

There is obviously a difference between a reference to "the great tribulation" and a reference to "great tribulation". The former implies a reference to a particular event while the latter refers to great tribulation in general. In Acts 14:22 it says "we must through much tribulation enter in to the kingdom of God". That is not referring to any particular event, but is referring generally to all Christians having to go through much or a great amount of tribulation in their lives. That is what I believe Revelation 7:14 is referring to. If you can't understand the difference then I can't help you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pure baloney.
I looked it up and "the" is in there as solid as a rock and used many times.
You purposefully misrepresent that?

Are you even following the discussion carefully or just skimming as fast as you can through it? It was quoted from the KJV, so that it was I was specifically talking about.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV): And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What do you see here? Does it say "great tribulation" or "the great tribulation"?

Or did you just assume " the" does not exist in the greek?
It is used TWICE in rev 7.
The great tribulation.
100% accurate.

There are other translations that translate it as "the great tribulation", but the word "the" is not there in the Greek. That's why it's not there in the KJV because that is a word for word translation. Please take more time to carefully read what is actually being discussed before you chime in next time.

 

[Davy]

The Second Coming is pre-trib according to John in Revelation 6, the 5th and 6th Seals.

Nope, afraid not.

Per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed emphatically that the time of His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


The Matthew 24:31 gathering of the Church is about the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4:13-16. Jesus brings those from heaven with Him when He comes, per Apostle Paul.

The Mark 13:27 verse is about the gathering of the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes, what many call a rapture. That is what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:17.

 

[The Light]

No, the text would have said "have become".

This is incorrect sir.

The seventh angel sounding is connected to when the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth begins. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is plainly stated in Revelation 12:12 as Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath because he knows his time is short. A time, times, half time.

The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. I'm not sure how that can be any clearer.

I am not familiar with paint.net. Have you used it ? Does it allow the use of creating layers ? How to use layers is the basis for Corel PaintShop Pro.

Yes, I have used it a lot. Yes, it has layers. It's like a lesser version of photoshop.

You are speaking your opinion. If you had a timeline or diagram, you could show how you think things fit together.

The good thing about my so called opinion, is that I just go by what the Word says. I don't dream a lot of nonsense up.

 

[The Light]

Are you even following the discussion carefully or just skimming as fast as you can through it? It was quoted from the KJV, so that it was I was specifically talking about.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV): And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What do you see here? Does it say "great tribulation" or "the great tribulation"?

The real point is that I used the Word of God to prove that the tribulation of those days was the great tribulation. It appears that the Word of God is not enough proof for you.

 

[The Light]

Nope, afraid not.

Per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed emphatically that the time of His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


The Matthew 24:31 gathering of the Church is about the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4:13-16. Jesus brings those from heaven with Him when He comes, per Apostle Paul.

The Mark 13:27 verse is about the gathering of the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes, what many call a rapture. That is what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:17.

There is absolutely no Biblical proof that the Church is gathered FROM THE EARTH immediately after the tribulation. Yes, there is a rapture immediately after the tribulation, but it is not the Church being raptured from the earth at this time. He comes for the Church in an hour that you think not. Don't you believe your Lord?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The real point is that I used the Word of God to prove that the tribulation of those days was the great tribulation. It appears that the Word of God is not enough proof for you.

You proved nothing except that you don't understand what the Bible teaches. You referenced the Word of God and misinterpreted it. You don't get any points for that. The Word of God is all the proof I need. We are both referencing the Word of God, but we are interpreting it differently. So, to say "the Word of God is not enough proof for you" is just a childish statement and nothing more. It is plenty enough proof for me, when accurately interpreted. So, I can't count on you to help me with that, obviously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is absolutely no Biblical proof that the Church is gathered FROM THE EARTH immediately after the tribulation.

You mean besides Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27? In New Testament times, Christians are the elect. So, the elect make up the Church. That is indicated throughout the New Testament. And those passages I mentioned indicate that some of the elect will be gathered FROM THE EARTH "after the tribulation of those days" and some would be gathered from heaven.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that after the tribulation, the elect, which refers to Christians in the church, are gathered not only FROM THE EARTH, but also from heaven. That lines up with what we see here:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This talks about "them also which sleep in Jesus", also called "the dead in Christ", coming with Him when the rapture occurs. That is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ coming with Jesus from heaven. Those are the elect being gathered from heaven that are referenced in Mark 13:27. Then it talks about those who are alive and remain being caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. So, those who are alive and remain are the elect being gathered FROM THE EARTH that are mentioned in Mark 13:27.

Yes, there is a rapture immediately after the tribulation, but it is not the Church being raptured from the earth at this time. He comes for the Church in an hour that you think not. Don't you believe your Lord?

What makes you think that anyone would know the day or hour even with the church being on the earth during the tribulation? We might know it's near based on what is going on, but we still wouldn't know the day or hour.

Also, don't ask ridiculous questions like "Don't you believe your Lord"? Are you a child or an adult? Everyone here believes our Lord, so it is completely inappropriate to ask a fellow Christian that question. Please grow up.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. I'm not sure how that can be any clearer.

I agree. It is very clear.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever...18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

There clearly is a finality to the seventh trumpet. The sounding of the seventh trumpet announces that God's final wrath has come resulting in the destruction of "them which destroy the earth". It brings about "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". It results in "the mystery of God" being "accomplished". It results in the kingdoms (or kingdom) of this world becoming the kingdoms (or kingdom) of the Father and His Son. Several things are brought to an end at that point with rewards and judgment being given right afterwards. How can anyone think a bunch of things happen even after that? It doesn't make sense. That's why seeing the seals, trumpets and vials as being generally parallel to each other is the only way to look at it that makes sense.

 

[Truth7t7]

You proved nothing except that you don't understand what the Bible teaches. You referenced the Word of God and misinterpreted it. You don't get any points for that. The Word of God is all the proof I need. We are both referencing the Word of God, but we are interpreting it differently. So, to say "the Word of God is not enough proof for you" is just a childish statement and nothing more. It is plenty enough proof for me, when accurately interpreted. So, I can't count on you to help me with that, obviously.

As if you have the accurate interpretation of God's word, Big Smiles!

You falsely believe and teach verse 21 in the great tribulation took place around 70AD, and then you claim Jesus returns immediately after a "Future" tribulation seen in verse 29 below

And you gave the Gaul to correct persons in their interpretation

The great tribulation in verse 21 and Jesus returning after this tribulation is "Future" your claim in 70AD fulfillment t is "Malarkey"!

Matthew 24:21-30KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

You falsely believe and teach a 1900+ year gap exists between erses 28-29 below

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree. It is very clear.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever...18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

There clearly is a finality to the seventh trumpet. The sounding of the seventh trumpet announces that God's final wrath has come resulting in the destruction of "them which destroy the earth". It brings about "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". It results in "the mystery of God" being "accomplished". It results in the kingdoms (or kingdom) of this world becoming the kingdoms (or kingdom) of the Father and His Son. Several things are brought to an end at that point with rewards and judgment being given right afterwards. How can anyone think a bunch of things happen even after that? It doesn't make sense. That's why seeing the seals, trumpets and vials as being generally parallel to each other is the only way to look at it that makes sense.

You deny that Matthew 24:21 & Daniel 12:1 is the exact same tribulation spoken of, you falsely claim Matthew 24:21 took place around 70AD and Daniel 12:1 is future, now that's a bunch of "Malarkey"!

Daniel 12:1 & Matthew 24:21 are the same exact "Future" great tribulation, that takes place at the second coming and resurrection

Matthew 12:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As if you have the accurate interpretation of God's word, Big Smiles!

Much more than you do. Bigger Smiles!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You deny that Matthew 24:21 & Daniel 12:1 is the exact same tribulation spoken of, you falsely claim Matthew 24:21 took place around 70AD and Daniel 12:1 is future, now that's a bunch of "Malarkey"!

LOL! Are you a child? You seriously come across as if you are about 7 years old. We were discussing the seventh trumpet and then you come in and try to change the subject like an immature little child. Why? What is wrong with you? You need professional help.

 

[Truth7t7]

LOL! Are you a child? You seriously come across as if you are about 7 years old. We were discussing the seventh trumpet and then you come in and try to change the subject like an immature little child. Why? What is wrong with you? You need professional help.

Matthew 24:29-30 & Daniel 12:1-2 is the 7th Trump (The End)

Your predictable, when your in a corner trying desperately to defend your false teachings you resort to childish attacks

Yes you falsely believe and teach Matthew 24:21 took place around 70AD & Daniel 12:1 is future

Daniel 12:1 & Matthew 24:21 are the same exact "Future" event in the great tribulation, that takes place just prior to the second coming and resurrection (The End)

Matthew 12:21KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Douggg]

The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. I'm not sure how that can be any clearer.

You are misunderstanding the verses in Revelation 11:15-18. Those verses about the reaction in heaven, when the seven trumpet sounds.

The reaction is that everyone in heaven is rejoicing, for the time has come for Satan and his angel s to lose their stranglehold over the nations of the earth. And their kingdom of Babylon the Great to come to an end.
And all of the evil and violence they have done to creation to come to an end.

When the seventh trumpet sounds, God's wrath on Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great will be poured out.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are misunderstanding the verses in Revelation 11:15-18. Those verses about the reaction in heaven, when the seven trumpet sounds.

"False"

Revelation 11:18 is the future final judgement, also seen in Revelation 20:12 (The End)

(Final Judgementt)

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

(Final Judgement)

Revelation 20:12KJV
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.