False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[ewq1938]

The 144,000 are redeemed FROM THE EARTH.

We are all "from the Earth" since we originate here and those who are saved are redeemed from that same Earth but not physically moved from the Earth. That is not what it means. The 144k are on a mountain on the Earth so how could they also be removed from the Earth in a literal sense?

 

[ewq1938]

The great tribulation has nothing whatsoever to do with the wrath of God. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins.

If it starts at the 7th seal, why does Rev 11 state the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump?

 

[PinSeeker]

You don't think I'll like it? You are correct, I love it. I am actually shocked that you understand this.

Okay, well I'm surprised you do. :)

I'm really shocked that you understand that Rev 7 and the first part of Rev 15 are the same timeframe.

I wouldn't say I'm "shocked" at your concurrence, but pleasantly surprised.

Do you understand that the Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the same timeframe as the 1st 6 seals???????????????????????????????????????

How about let's get off your little superiority horse ~ you get that, right? Little, and superiority, which is a misnomer of sorts, completely negating the superiority part... :) ~ and let's talk about Revelation as a whole, TL That might be profitable.

Now you are mistaken that HE is mistaken.

Well that would mean that he really is lying... :) But again, I don't think he's lying, just... yeah, he's mistaken. If you disagree, well then okay, I'm not concerned about that... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

So, who decided that you should speak for him/her?

Well, I decided to cut in, and I did it of my own free will and accord. :)

I must have missed that.

I don't care. :)

I'm kinda having a little fun with you, SI. Do what you want, but things are a lot better all the way around when you, you know, don't take yourself so seriously. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

We are all "from the Earth" since we originate here and those who are saved are redeemed from that same Earth but not physically moved from the Earth. That is not what it means. The 144k are on a mountain on the Earth so how could they also be removed from the Earth in a literal sense?

LOL. They start out on the mountain and are redeemed FROM THE EARTH. They are before the throne that happens to be located in heaven.

Why is everything so complicated?

 

[PinSeeker]

The issue relates to what he or she said about Revelation 7:14 while acting as if it says "THE great tribulation" when it actually says "great tribulation".

I think you're being a little to particular with words, which is my point to you. He's right in the way I described, although ~ you're right about this I think ~ he's taking it to a degree, it seems, that's beyond what the Scriptures say, maybe way beyond. Which of course would not be a good thing... :)

Anyway, I don't have any more to say to you about this.

Good enough.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

If it starts at the 7th seal, why does Rev 11 state the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump?

The mystery of God is FINISHED at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Christ has set up on His kingdom on earth. And you think wrath is beginning?

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[ewq1938]

LOL. They start out on the mountain and are redeemed FROM THE EARTH. They are before the throne that happens to be located in heaven.

Why is everything so complicated?

They are redeemed from the Earth on the Earth like we all are. They are on a mountain. There are no mountains in heaven because heaven is not a planet of dirt and rocks and volcanoes.

 

[ewq1938]

The mystery of God is FINISHED at the 7th trumpet.

Yes and the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump as Rev 11 says. Do you think mystery of God means wrath of God? Do you know mystery and wrath have different meanings?

 

[The Light]

Yes and the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump as Rev 11 says. Do you think mystery of God means wrath of God? Do you know mystery and wrath have different meanings?

I pasted this verse, and the spelling corrector wanted me to change this to HAS COME. However, look at the verses below. See any problems. There are dozens and dozens more.

Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


2 John 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[The Light]

Yes and the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump as Rev 11 says. Do you think mystery of God means wrath of God? Do you know mystery and wrath have different meanings?

Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

When you say thy wrath is come you are saying thy wrath has come.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

When you say the great day of His wrath is come, you are saying the great day of His wrath has come

Now you need understanding. The great day of His wrath lasts one year. So when you say the great day of His wrath has come, you are saying that the year of wrath has come.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The day of wrath is one year long. The day of wrath is the day of vengeance and the year of recompenses.

So the day of wrath which lasts 1 year has come but the events of that year won't be finished until Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

I pasted this verse, and the spelling corrector wanted me to change this to HAS COME. However, look at the verses below. See any problems. There are dozens and dozens more.

Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


2 John 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Do you know what it means for something to come? It doesn't mean to "go".

 

[ewq1938]

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The day of wrath is one year long. The day of wrath is the day of vengeance and the year of recompenses.

The year of something does not mean that something lasts a year but instead happens in a certain year. The year of the death of someone would be when not how long. A day is also mentioned but I don't see you claiming the wrath lasts a day long.

 

[The Light]

The year of something does not mean that something lasts a year but instead happens in a certain year. The year of the death of someone would be when not how long. A day is also mentioned but I don't see you claiming the wrath lasts a day long.

Just going by what the Word says. The day of wrath lasts one year. And then er ah...............

Ezekiel 4
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

These aren't my opinions. This is what the Word says.

The fact that Rev 6 says the great day of his wrath is come, and Revelation 11 says that thy wrath is come has confused you into thinking that the seals are not events that will happen. This is totally and completely in error.

You need to rethink your timeline beginning with the pretribulation rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

Just going by what the Word says. The day of wrath lasts one year.

It does not say that.

Ezekiel 4
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

These aren't my opinions. This is what the Word says.

You are cherry picking unrelated verses and even parts of a verse.

The fact that Rev 6 says the great day of his wrath is come, and Revelation 11 says that thy wrath is come has confused you into thinking that the seals are not events that will happen.

The wrath doesn't come twice at very different times. Both speak of the same exact time.

You need to rethink your timeline beginning with the pretribulation rapture.

Pretrib is wrong and isn't even biblical. Why would I rethink it? Go backwards in understanding? No thanks.

 

[The Light]

You are cherry picking unrelated verses and even parts of a verse.

The Word explains the Word.

Such as

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Hosea 6
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

If I said 2 days is two thousand years, I would be cherry picking to some and lying to others.

 

[The Light]

The wrath doesn't come twice at very different times. Both speak of the same exact time.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Rev 6
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isaiah 34 is obviously referring to what happens at the 6th seal. You know, one of the seals that you think doesn't happen.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 34 says that the DAY of the vengeance is also THE year of recompences.

The day of the Lord is one year and that is how THE DAY of wrath IS come at the 6th seal and thy wrath is come after the 7th trumpet. The 6th seal is not foretelling of the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet can't even happen until the 7th seal is opened. Your logic is left wanting.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is simply not true. The Greek doesn't even have a word for "the" in it. Where you are coming up with this? Do you think the KJV translators were not Greek experts? That is a word for word translation unlike many other translations. That's why the word "the" is not there because it's not there in the original Greek manuscript.

Also, I didn't call everyone a liar. That is another lie. Other than the one incident in this thread you don't even know what I'm referring to. I'm talking about people who blatantly misrepresent my view even after I've explained it to them because they are so desperate to cling to their views that they are willing to lie about what others believe in order to make their own views look better.

Uh, no.
I read the word , " the ", to you.
If you want to assume it is not there then have at it.
You made it pivotal...not me.
Your doctrine, as is plain as day, literally depends on the omission of "the".

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is simply not true. The Greek doesn't even have a word for "the" in it. Where you are coming up with this? Do you think the KJV translators were not Greek experts? That is a word for word translation unlike many other translations. That's why the word "the" is not there because it's not there in the original Greek manuscript.

Also, I didn't call everyone a liar. That is another lie. Other than the one incident in this thread you don't even know what I'm referring to. I'm talking about people who blatantly misrepresent my view even after I've explained it to them because they are so desperate to cling to their views that they are willing to lie about what others believe in order to make their own views look better.

Pure baloney.
I looked it up and "the" is in there as solid as a rock and used many times.
You purposefully misrepresent that?
Or did you just assume " the" does not exist in the greek?
It is used TWICE in rev 7.
The great tribulation.
100% accurate.

 

[Timtofly]

But the English Standard Version does in fact say, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation." Some will argue, I'm quite sure, but there is no real difference.

Technically in the Greek it is "the great the tribulation" because they used an article before both the noun and the adjective. But one can remove both of the articles, because they are not necessary in English, unless of course one has a theological bias, and trying to define this tribulation past the point it is actually referring to. We do not place articles in front of most adjectives, except in this case, because some want to get the right "great" emphasized.

Except none of The Great Multitude came out of The Great Tribulation. If this were true, then your two pre-trib posters are actually post tribulation, like every other poster arguing a post trib position.

I would argue that the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24 are not talking about some great short tribulation, just like Revelation 7 is not talking about some great short tribulation. The church is not defined by a bunch of post trib people gathered in a few months.


The church is defined by people coming out of great tribulation since the Flood of Noah's day. Noah escaped great tribulation, no? Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 24, the church would have tribulation from the time He left the earth, until He returned. So great tribulation and the tribulation "of those days" is not limited to a short Great Tribulation that some modify with the article "The". The word being modified is the adjective "Great", not "The Tribulation". Great tribulation promised to the church has been ongoing for 5,000 years. And the Great Multitude is people gathered as the church for those same 5,000 years.

The Cross allowed physical access to Paradise, as Adam's descendants were banned from the tree of life by God. Since the Cross they have had physical bodies and access to the tree of life physically. They have been serving God day and night in that heavenly temple. They are redeemed as symbolized by washing their robes in the blood of the Lamb that was available since the Cross physically. It was available spiritually, as the OT redeemed waited in Abraham's bosom by faith. Revelation 2:7

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Was that true in the first century, or did they have to wait for 2,000 years? Did the thief on the Cross go to Paradise that day, where the tree of life is. What good is the tree of life just sitting there with physical fruit, if you all don't think they had physical bodies to enjoy that fruit? Was that a physical tree planted in a physical garden? Did God transplant the tree, or move the whole Paradise to heaven, and that was the city Abraham looked for, in heaven, not on earth? Some point out there is also a heavenly mount Zion there like the physical mount on physical earth. All these ethereal souls floating around naked on a physical landscape, does not make any sense. Jesus did not leave His physical body on the earth.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."