False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[PinSeeker]

...you are only disagreeing with what the Word says.

Well, I would say the exact same of you.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than the past post. However.............

Oh, what you said was perfectly clear. However... :)

1. Matthew 24 shows us the great tribulation which is a time like no other.

It does.

2. Matthew 24 shows us that immediately after the great tribulation, the sun and moon go dark and the stars fall from heaven, and Jesus returns.

It does.

3. At the opening of the 6th seal, we see the exact same signs in the sun, moon and stars.

Sure.

4. We can conclude based on the above that Jesus returns at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation.

Sure. But that's not the only place in Revelation where we see ~ or understand Jesus's return to be imminent, happening, or to have occurred. Which is starting to get at the real issue here, at least one of them.

5. In Rev 7 we see those in white robes come out of the same great tribulation as the harvest has occurred.

Sure.

6. In Revelation 15 we can see that those that are in heaven that came out of great tribulation are singing the song of Moses.

Hm, see above. I don't think you'll like this, but here you go... :) What we see in Revelation 7 and Revelation 15 are roughly concurrent, the same event depicted in a different way, with a slightly different focus, and/or from a different perspective.

7. They are identified as those that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name.

Sure.

That's what the Word says. It's so simple if you just read what the Word says. We don't need to make up anything.

Agree. :) I'm not making up anything. :)

Here is the first rapture which is the Church...

There is no rapture. We disagree. Now, I could say that any "rapture" is made up... :) But I wouldn't say that, I would just say that it is mistakenly perceived, from what is there in, like you said, what the Word says.

It will be like the days of Noah, as Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood.

In that it was sudden, and without warning... "at an hour (we) do not expect." That's Jesus's context there.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here is the 2nd rapture. The fruit harvest. Like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. This occurs at the 6th seal.

And where do you see anyone being taken, or removed to, anywhere, The Light? Jesus will return and seize what is His, what really has always been His, but no one is seen going away anywhere. Sure, those who are still alive at Jesus's return will "meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." But nothing is said there about anyone being removed or taken anywhere... :)

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Such a great passage... love it. Same question here, though: What in this passage gives you any idea of a removal or a transporting of Christians to anywhere?

It might matter to you as He appears to be coming in an hour that you think not.

Ummm, okay... :) No idea what this even means... :)

We are approaching the middle of June.

Yes we are; this year seems to be flying by... :)

It's very possible that will shake you into reality brother.

:)

It's a pleasure talking to you.

Likewise.

All the best to you in your quest for the truth. The time draws near.

And the same to you. Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't need you to try to treat me like I'm your child or something.

I'm... not. If you perceive it that way, that's... unfortunate. I'm actually offering a word to the wise.

Please, mind your own business.

:)

Christians can rebuke other Christians if they are in the wrong.

Sure, but that's not an accurate depiction of what you did, SI.

It's hard to believe he/she wasn't doing it purposely when he/she did it again even after I corrected him/her on it.

Fair enough. But why not give him/her the benefit of the doubt? Or just keep it to yourself? Why call him/her a liar when you don't really know if that's the case or not?

You are free to ignore me if you don't like my approach.

It's not really about me ~ or anyone else, really ~ liking or not liking your "approach," SI. It's about you.

What statement are you referring to here?

Citing it ~ them, actually ~ once should have been sufficient.

Good for you! As you should.


Sounds great.


And to you as well.

:)

Of course there is. There was great tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea around 70 AD when the Roman armies destroyed the city and the temple buildings. And there is a sense in which there is great tribulation for all believers.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Sure, I knew your thoughts would be at least fairly along the same lines as mine on this. But, Spiritual Israelite, The Light is right about a "great tribulation"... "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now" (and this 'now' is true even now)... just before the Lord's return. Which I think you agree with...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Light: You are correct. I'm not mistaken.

So, you are lying on purpose and not just acting like the text you quoted says "THE great tribulation" instead of "great tribulation"?

No, he/she is not lying on purpose. Lying is always a purposeful act... :) But now he/she is mistaken about not being mistaken... :)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Davidpt]

Matthew 24:29 says tribulation of those days - and not Great Tribulation of those days - because there will one last vial of God's wrath to be poured out.

And if you had connected the dots correctly in this case, you could not have helped but notice that the only tribulation mentioned in the text leading up to verse 29 is the one mentioned in verse 21. Therefore, in this context, the tribulation of those days can only be meaning the one involving verse 21. If you are correct regardless, not me nor the text, point out anywhere between verse 15 and 28 it ever mentions another tribulation of days?

 

[The Light]

Hm, see above. I don't think you'll like this, but here you go... :) What we see in Revelation 7 and Revelation 15 are roughly concurrent, the same event depicted in a different way, with a slightly different focus, and/or from a different perspective.

You don't think I'll like it? You are correct, I love it. I am actually shocked that you understand this. Yes Revelation 7 and the beginning of Revelation 15 are speaking of the same event..............which is why I posted it. It is different information of the same timeframe. Those that are harvested are singing the song of Moses. They are of the twelve tribes across the earth.

And where do you see anyone being taken, or removed to, anywhere, The Light?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The great multitude is in heaven before the throne. They are there for the marriage supper of the lamb. This occurs during the 1-year wrath of God. I also showed you the 144,000 first fruits are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne.

Jesus will return and seize what is His, what really has always been His, but no one is seen going away anywhere. Sure, those who are still alive at Jesus's return will "meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." But nothing is said there about anyone being removed or taken anywhere... :)

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Such a great passage... love it. Same question here, though: What in this passage gives you any idea of a removal or a transporting of Christians to anywhere?

See above.

And the same to you. Grace and peace to you.

I'm really shocked that you understand that Rev 7 and the first part of Rev 15 are the same timeframe.

Do you understand that the Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the same timeframe as the 1st 6 seals???????????????????????????????????????

 

[The Light]

The Light: You are correct. I'm not mistaken.


No, he/she is not lying on purpose. Lying is always a purposeful act... :) But now he/she is mistaken about not being mistaken... :)

Grace and peace to all.

Now you are mistaken that HE is mistaken.

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And you were saying this refers to "THE great tribulation". Does this verse say "great tribulation" or "THE great tribulation"? If you think it refers to "THE great tribulation" rather than great tribulation that we all go through (Acts 14:22) then that's your choice, but what does the text actually say? Can you at least acknowledge that it doesn't say "THE great tribulation"?

The REBible says; ...those who have passed through the great ordeal.
This ordeal, or great tribulation, obviously refers to the just happened Sixth Seal event.

People who like to say it is the GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, or the general tribulation we all experience, are guilty of adding to and taking away from the Book of Revelation.
Doing that in ignorance is not as bad as doing it to fit in a false theory.

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The great multitude is in heaven before the throne. They are there for the marriage supper of the lamb. This occurs during the 1-year wrath of God. I also showed you the 144,000 first fruits are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne.

A prime example of adding to Revelation:
Revelation 7 never mentions heaven. Jesus stands on Mt Zion and selects the 144k out of the multitude. Rev 14:1-5
Revelation 14:3 - being redeemed does not mean removed. The 144K are the ones who proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

 

[Douggg]

Of course there is. There was great tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea around 70 AD when the Roman armies destroyed the city and the temple buildings. And there is a sense in which there is great tribulation for all believers.

The 70 AD events were of course substantial tribulation.

But even more intense and widespread with be the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 that precedes Jesus's return ....

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [nor ever shall be again, implied]

 

[Douggg]

And if you had connected the dots correctly in this case, you could not have but notice that the only tribulation mentioned in the text leading up to verse 29 is the one mentioned in verse 21. Therefore, in this context, the tribulation of those days can only be meaning the one involving verse 21. If you are correct regardless, not me nor the text, point out anywhere between verse 15 and 28 it ever mentions another tribulation of days?

I am not saying "another" great tribulation. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation, but not completed. When the sixth seal event takes place - there will still be the seventh vial to be poured out , before Jesus's descent to earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's your assumption. Prove it.

Prove what exactly?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 70 AD events were of course substantial tribulation.

But even more intense and widespread with be the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 that precedes Jesus's return ....

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [nor ever shall be again, implied]

It's not possible to be more intense and widespread than the flood in Noah's day, so you should rethink what that verse really means. Also, Jesus indicated that it would be things happening in Jerusalem and Judea, so where are you getting this idea that it would be more widespread from? Not from anything Jesus Himself said.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure, I knew your thoughts would be at least fairly along the same lines as mine on this. But, Spiritual Israelite, The Light is right about a "great tribulation"... "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now" (and this 'now' is true even now)... just before the Lord's return. Which I think you agree with...

Yes, but that isn't the issue here. The issue relates to what he or she said about Revelation 7:14 while acting as if it says "THE great tribulation" when it actually says "great tribulation". And I'm talking about the verse being quoted from the KJV, so please don't bother telling me again that another translation says "the great tribulation". This person is basing their understanding on the KJV translation. Anyway, I don't have any more to say to you about this.

Grace and peace to you.

And to you as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The REBible says; ...those who have passed through the great ordeal.
This ordeal, or great tribulation, obviously refers to the just happened Sixth Seal event.

People who like to say it is the GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, or the general tribulation we all experience, are guilty of adding to and taking away from the Book of Revelation.
Doing that in ignorance is not as bad as doing it to fit in a false theory.

Thanks for sharing your opinion while doing nothing to back it up. Great job.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Light: You are correct. I'm not mistaken.


No, he/she is not lying on purpose. Lying is always a purposeful act... :) But now he/she is mistaken about not being mistaken... :)

Grace and peace to all.

So, who decided that you should speak for him/her? I must have missed that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

AHEM,
I just looked up that passage in Revelation 7.
in the Greek Interlinear.
It says ;
"...these came out of THE constriction ,THE Great..."

What superior interpretation can you add to what the bible plainly says?

Please read the discussion again. Was there any mention of the Greek Interlinear or other translations besides the KJV? No. So, you are missing the point which is what was quoted from the KJV says "great tribulation" and not "THE great tribulation", so no one should pretend otherwise. If someone interprets it to be about "THE great tribulation", so be it, but don't act as if the text in the KJV says that.

By the way, there are other Greek resources that don't include the word "the" in that verse, so what you're saying proves nothing. Actually, someone pointed out in another post that Greek doesn't even have a word for "the" in it, so I'm not sure where you are getting your information.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, now that we know it really Is "The great" where does that leave your doctrine????
The Greek used "the" twice.
Lets see...now under your example of calling everyone a liar...what would that make your entire doctrine?????

This is simply not true. The Greek doesn't even have a word for "the" in it. Where you are coming up with this? Do you think the KJV translators were not Greek experts? That is a word for word translation unlike many other translations. That's why the word "the" is not there because it's not there in the original Greek manuscript.

Also, I didn't call everyone a liar. That is another lie. Other than the one incident in this thread you don't even know what I'm referring to. I'm talking about people who blatantly misrepresent my view even after I've explained it to them because they are so desperate to cling to their views that they are willing to lie about what others believe in order to make their own views look better.

 

[Douggg]

It's not possible to be more intense and widespread than the flood in Noah's day, so you should rethink what that verse really means. Also, Jesus indicated that it would be things happening in Jerusalem and Judea, so where are you getting this idea that it would be more widespread from? Not from anything Jesus Himself said.

The flood was a 40 day event. And two of every animal on earth safe within the ark survived it, as well as Noah and his family.

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long. And if it continues any further, no flesh on earth will survive.

 

[The Light]

A prime example of adding to Revelation: Revelation 7 never mentions heaven

Hmm. Oh. You are unaware that the throne of God is in heaven. So because you are unaware of this you think I have added to Revelation?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Here maybe this will help. The throne of God is in heaven. That is where the elders and the four beasts are.

Revelation 4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Jesus stands on Mt Zion and selects the 144k out of the multitude. Rev 14:1-5
Revelation 14:3 - being redeemed does not mean removed. The 144K are the ones who proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

The 144,000 are redeemed FROM THE EARTH.
It appears you are attempting to take away from the words of the book of Revelation.

 

[The Light]

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long. And if it continues any further, no flesh on earth will survive.

Douggg, this verse in Matthew 24 does not mean "if the days were not shortened, no flesh on earth will survive."

The verse means that if the days of the great tribulation were not shortened, there would be no flesh that would be raptured alive at the 6th seal. All the believers would be killed. All would have to be raised from the dead. There would be none alive to be raptured.

Matthew 24
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The days of the great tribulation are shortened so that there are believers alive to receive to receive salvation. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The great tribulation has nothing whatsoever to do with the wrath of God. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins.