False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Jay Ross]

Paul wrote in 2Corinthians12:2

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Douggg, you have provided the only verse in the scriptures that referenced the third heaven. Paul wrote this from his understanding obtained from his training.

It is a man-made construct to make sense of what and where heaven is within the Jewish culture. You have not proved or been able to justicy your previous claims. It seems that you should take your understanding up directly with God and see if He accepts your perspective on the subject of Heaven. As for me wanting to continue this conversation, it will cease since we hold very different views on the subject matter of Satan and where he presently resides and where heaven is. Others will decide whether or not they will accept our posts on these subject matters.

Goodbye

 

[rebuilder 454]

So, you acknowledge that Gentile believers are included among the elect. Let me remind you of what you said previously. First, I had said this:


Then you said this:



I was claiming that Christians are the elect referenced in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 and you scoffed at that. Now, you are acknowledging that Gentile Christians are among the elect. Well, Gentile Christians, along with Jewish Christians, together make up the church. So, with all this in mind, why would the elect being gathered in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 not be the church?


Is this your way of agreeing with me that there is no such things as the Gentile church?


That always has and always will be the case because there are obviously far more Gentiles than Jews. Even if every Jew was saved there would be more Gentiles than Jews in the church.


You are not understanding what that verse means. You are acting as if it says all of Israel is blinded up until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That's not what it is saying. Israel being blinded in part means that some Israelites are blinded and some are not. In Paul's day there was a remnant of believers and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:5-7). It has been like that ever since. That is part of God's plan because His plan is to provoke Israelites to jealousy by way of them being envious of the salvation of the Gentiles so that they too want to be saved. And many Israelites have become saved that way for the past almost 2,000 years. That verse is saying the partial (not complete) blindness has happened to Israel while (not until - that's a bad translation) the fullness of the Gentiles comes in because it is the intention of God to have the Gentiles help remove their blindness by making them jealous.

This process I described above started long ago, led by Paul, as he described here:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11 has been terribly misunderstood by many who postpone the salvation of Israelites by thousands of years. God forbid! What a terrible doctrine. Paul clearly doesn't agree with it as he hoped to help lead some of the very Israelites of his day who had been blinded to salvation by way of provoking them to jealousy by way of the salvation of the Gentiles. In your doctrine the ones who were blinded had no chance to be saved because you think they and their descendants would be blinded for thousands of years until the last Gentile to be saved is saved. But, Paul knew better than that and had the hope of leading some of them to salvation himself. Imagine if he thought they were blinded for the rest of their lives like you believe? What a shame that would've been.



As I have already pointed out multiple times scripture prophesies both great tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea and a separate great tribulation globally before Christ returns. You conflate the two. You seem to ignore that Jesus said the temple buildings standing at the time He was speaking would be destroyed and one of the questions the disciples asked Him was about that. For whatever reason, you have decided that it's not possible for Jesus to have talked about both a local tribulation event and a global tribulation event despite being asked both about when the temple would be destroyed and when His coming and the end of the age would occur.

Ruth is the gentile church.
The gentiles brought in alongside messianic Jews.
Gentile church has many Jews in it.
We gentiles outnumber the Jews maybe 100 to 1 or greater.
Mainly gentile church.. with a few Jews.
Gentile by volume nonetheless.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The rapture of the Church will be a SECRET RAPTURE.

Here is the rapture of the dead in Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus is standing behind the wall showing Himself through the Lattice. It is springtime. The dead in Christ rise first: The barley harvest. Jesus is not seen or heard by the world. He shows Himself through the lattice and the voice of the turtle dove is heard in the land.

Song of Solomon
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

Here is Jesus returning for the alive that remain. This is the wheat harvest and occurs towards summers end. The fig tree puts forth her green figs and the grapes are tender. The fruit has come forth but is not ready to harvest. The Lord is in the secret places and the world will not see Him.

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

The world will not see Jesus until the second coming which occurs at the fruit harvest. Jesus will remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at that time. All will return to heaven for the marriage supper. This occurs at the 6th seal and the world is cast into the 1-year wrath of God.

Part will be at night.
Part in the day. .
The ones taken at Night while 90% are asleep will definitely be secret.
The 5 foolish virgins left behind will be horrified.
The dread that they lived a carnal life and were rejected will be overwhelming

 

[Taken]

Reading thru the many and varied posts here, I see much confusion and error.
Firstly; there is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone at any time. That idea is Satans lie.

@Keraz -

You might remember… There ONCE occurred GREAT TRIBULATION…
** Sent down from Heaven…
** Coupled with Great Wrath of/from God.
** “UPON” “AFFECTING” “KILLING” the ENTIRE WORLD HUMAN POPULATION Domiciled UPON the FACE OF the EARTH”

You might remember…EIGHT individual humans IN Noah’s Day “ESCAPED” …
* THAT GREAT TRIBULATION…
* Gods WRATH…

However it APPEARS you DO NOT KNOW….HOW, or in WHAT MANNER, those EIGHT…
* ESCAPED Subjection to the “FIRST” GREAT TRIBULATION.
* ESCAPED the WRATH of God…
* ESCAPED DEATH…

I will NOT read and study Gods TRUTH “for you”… but WILL TELL YOU GODS TRUTH…

THOSE…EIGHT…we’re RISEN UP ABOVE THE FACE OF THE EARTH TO THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

You should have LISTENED to the Word of God…
Gods ANGER and Gods Retribution of His WRATH is EXPRESSLY Gods REACTION toward human men WHO REJECT Him, as God Himself in turn REJECTS THEM.

Even in the day of Moses climbing UP the mountain to Receive Gods Commandments…
Moses, at the top of the mountain, was IN the clouds, was IN the Lower Heavens, was ON HOLY GROUND!…

Ex 3:
[5] And he (God)said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou (Moses) standest is holy ground.

** IN THIS DAY… mountain climbers, excavators, humans in Jets, humans in Rockets….who travel TO, IN, the Clouds, ARE IN the Lower HOLY HEAVENS OF God.

** ANOTHER GREAT TRIBULATION IS Prophesied TO BE SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN, UPON ALL, UPON the FACE of EARTH.
** AGAIN that Secondary (and Last) Great Tribulation SHALL BE COUPLED WITH…
~ Great WRATH…of the Lamb;
(For human men having REJECTED HIM.)
~ Great WRATH…of the Devil:
(For human men having REJECTED him.)
~ Great WRATH…of God;
(For human men having REJECTED HIM.)

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Matt 24:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Follow the END DAYS “Great Tribulation sent down From God”…
Twenty One steps…
SEVEN seals
SEVEN trumps
SEVEN bowls
Each INCREASING in Severity of Tribulations UPON the human occupants domiciled UPON the FACE of the EARTH….
(BECAUSE OF THEIR “REJECTIONS” ).

Rejection OF the Lamb…
Rejection OF the Devil…
Rejection OF God…

DURING the (21) distinct Tribulations SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN…Human men WILL BE DECIDING, CHOOSING, ANNOUNCING, DECLARING TO THE Lord God, their TRUTH Heartful BELIEFS….

Allegiance, Belief IN the Lord, IN God, IN Satan….and
** IN the CASE of a human man…
DECLARING his heartful Allegiance and Belief…IN the Lord God…HIS MORTAL LIFE will END, no longer SUBJECT to the continuing Great Tribulation and HIS soul SHALL Be saved…

Rev 7:
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

** IN the CASE of a human man…
DECLARING his heartful Allegiance and Belief … IN the Devil….HIS MORTAL LIFE shall continue, to ENDURE ALL 21 steps of the Great Tribulation SENT down from Heaven.
(As IN the days of Noah…whereby EVERY human remaining upon the Face of the Earth AGAINST the Lord God…SHALL mortally DIE…and their Living SOUL condemned….
and SENT to Hell…to suffer the torments of Separation FROM the Lord God.

Your pretense and Blatantly FALSE CLAIMS that Gods Order, Way, Methods FOR EXCLUDING those Heartfully COMMITTED TO the Lord God Almighty…FROM the Lambs Wrath, FROM Gods Wrath, From the Devils Wrath….is ludicrous on its FACE!

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

For YOU by your preaching has appointed (us) WHO ARE soul saved and born again..,
TO BE APPOINTED to Gods Wrath…

Even going so far as to SAY Believing and Trusting IN Gods WORD…IS FALSE…and then blaming the DEVIL as it being his promoted LIE.

Where EXACTLY is the DEVIL promoting that GOD WILL NOT raise UP to the CLOUDS human men having made their Heartful Allegiance to the Lord God?

Glory to God,
Taken

2 Thess 1:10 will happen after the Lord sends His fiery wrath, at the Sixth Seal. Confirmed by Revelation 14:1

1 Thess 4:16-17 is a prophecy about the glorious Return of King Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy of what will happen at the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium.

All easily proved correct, any other placement or belief to suit a false theory, is wrong.

 

[rebuilder 454]

@Keraz -

You might remember… There ONCE occurred GREAT TRIBULATION…
** Sent down from Heaven…
** Coupled with Great Wrath of/from God.
** “UPON” “AFFECTING” “KILLING” the ENTIRE WORLD HUMAN POPULATION Domiciled UPON the FACE OF the EARTH”

You might remember…EIGHT individual humans IN Noah’s Day “ESCAPED” …
* THAT GREAT TRIBULATION…
* Gods WRATH…

However it APPEARS you DO NOT KNOW….HOW, or in WHAT MANNER, those EIGHT…
* ESCAPED Subjection to the “FIRST” GREAT TRIBULATION.
* ESCAPED the WRATH of God…
* ESCAPED DEATH…

I will NOT read and study Gods TRUTH “for you”… but WILL TELL YOU GODS TRUTH…

THOSE…EIGHT…we’re RISEN UP ABOVE THE FACE OF THE EARTH TO THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

You should have LISTENED to the Word of God…
Gods ANGER and Gods Retribution of His WRATH is EXPRESSLY Gods REACTION toward human men WHO REJECT Him, as God Himself in turn REJECTS THEM.

Even in the day of Moses climbing UP the mountain to Receive Gods Commandments…
Moses, at the top of the mountain, was IN the clouds, was IN the Lower Heavens, was ON HOLY GROUND!…

Ex 3:
[5] And he (God)said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou (Moses) standest is holy ground.

** IN THIS DAY… mountain climbers, excavators, humans in Jets, humans in Rockets….who travel TO, IN, the Clouds, ARE IN the Lower HOLY HEAVENS OF God.

** ANOTHER GREAT TRIBULATION IS Prophesied TO BE SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN, UPON ALL, UPON the FACE of EARTH.
** AGAIN that Secondary (and Last) Great Tribulation SHALL BE COUPLED WITH…
~ Great WRATH…of the Lamb;
(For human men having REJECTED HIM.)
~ Great WRATH…of the Devil:
(For human men having REJECTED him.)
~ Great WRATH…of God;
(For human men having REJECTED HIM.)

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Matt 24:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Follow the END DAYS “Great Tribulation sent down From God”…
Twenty One steps…
SEVEN seals
SEVEN trumps
SEVEN bowls
Each INCREASING in Severity of Tribulations UPON the human occupants domiciled UPON the FACE of the EARTH….
(BECAUSE OF THEIR “REJECTIONS” ).

Rejection OF the Lamb…
Rejection OF the Devil…
Rejection OF God…

DURING the (21) distinct Tribulations SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN…Human men WILL BE DECIDING, CHOOSING, ANNOUNCING, DECLARING TO THE Lord God, their TRUTH Heartful BELIEFS….

Allegiance, Belief IN the Lord, IN God, IN Satan….and
** IN the CASE of a human man…
DECLARING his heartful Allegiance and Belief…IN the Lord God…HIS MORTAL LIFE will END, no longer SUBJECT to the continuing Great Tribulation and HIS soul SHALL Be saved…

Rev 7:
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

** IN the CASE of a human man…
DECLARING his heartful Allegiance and Belief … IN the Devil….HIS MORTAL LIFE shall continue, to ENDURE ALL 21 steps of the Great Tribulation SENT down from Heaven.
(As IN the days of Noah…whereby EVERY human remaining upon the Face of the Earth AGAINST the Lord God…SHALL mortally DIE…and their Living SOUL condemned….
and SENT to Hell…to suffer the torments of Separation FROM the Lord God.

Your pretense and Blatantly FALSE CLAIMS that Gods Order, Way, Methods FOR EXCLUDING those Heartfully COMMITTED TO the Lord God Almighty…FROM the Lambs Wrath, FROM Gods Wrath, From the Devils Wrath….is ludicrous on its FACE!

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

For YOU by your preaching has appointed (us) WHO ARE soul saved and born again..,
TO BE APPOINTED to Gods Wrath…

Even going so far as to SAY Believing and Trusting IN Gods WORD…IS FALSE…and then blaming the DEVIL as it being his promoted LIE.

Where EXACTLY is the DEVIL promoting that GOD WILL NOT raise UP to the CLOUDS human men having made their Heartful Allegiance to the Lord God?

Glory to God,
Taken

Yep
And those 8 souls returned postrib and started a new kingdom.
Only pretrib rapture fits.

 

[Davy]

Yep
And those 8 souls returned postrib and started a new kingdom.
Only pretrib rapture fits.

Nope, no such idea as a pre-trib rapture written in God's Word.

Christ was emphatic in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming and gathering of the saints will be AFTER... the tribulation of those days.

And what He taught there are the SAME events that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

 

[Taken]

Nope, no such idea as a pre-trib rapture written in God's Word.

Your comment reflects your utter lack of Understanding …
* Christ Jesus DID NOT SUFFER “Tribulation” from God.
* Christ Jesus DID NOT SUFFER “Wrath of God.”

* Nor SHALL those Converted “IN” Christ Jesus Suffer Tribulation from God.
* Nor SHALL those Converted “IN” Christ Jesus Suffer Wrath.

SAME as Jesus Christ SUFFERED, Tribulation and Wrath….Instigated, Promoted, Effected BY HUMAN MEN….So ALSO DO Converted “IN” Christ, HUMAN MEN suffer tribulations and wrath from human men.

Not ONCE Does the Lord God reveal men “IN” Christ Jesus SHALL BE UPON the face of the Earth to EXPERIENCE Gods Tribulations and Wrath foretold to be SENT Down upon the Occupants of the Whole Earth.

It shall be in similitude as in the day of NOAH…..who he himself was raised UP above the Earth WHILE the Unrighteous were Killed by Water.

Your rejection of Gods PEACE and COMFORT plan for FAITHFUL manKIND, is hypocrisy on it’s face.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you don't feel it is appropriate to accept what is written and don't make things up it's all good.

Of course I accept what is written, you silly goose. I just don't accept that it's all meant to be taken literally the way you do.

So you're telling me you think the 144,000 is the Church.

I think it could be. Otherwise, I think since they are called the firstfruits it could be the souls of the firstfruit Jews who James wrote to here:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.....18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Yes, but it seems you want to ignore the timing of the two folds becoming one. It can't happen until they believe.

It seems that you want to ignore what this passage literally says, which makes no sense for someone who takes almost everything so literally:

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Here it is. Plainly written. It says Jesus HAS MADE the two groups one. And here you are denying this plainly written text. Do you only follow your "as written" rule when it doesn't contradict your beliefs? This passage says it's already been done. Jew and Gentile believers were made into one group. One fold. Who is doing the ignoring? It seems to be you.

I think in the days of Noah, mankind was particularly evil. But it good to make note that Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood.

Jesus made no such note of that, so there's no basis for including that in the comparison of the days of Noah and the days before Christ's return.

The days of Lot were days of sexual prevision. It good to make note that the day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Jesus made note of that as well, so we can use that when comparing the days of Lot to the days before His return.

Luke 17:28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

That's correct. It is very difficult to disprove anything I say because I just say what is written. That's pretty tough to argue against.

LOL. You are a funny one. So, I guess I can say the same to you when I say that all of the dead (saved and lost) will all be resurrected at generally the same time because that is what Jesus said. This is pretty tough to argue against and, yet, you do argue against it.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

This is why we don't make things up like the 144,000 is the Church. The scripture tells us when dealing with prophecy just read what the holy men have said.

That's not what prophecy not being of any private interpretation means. You are taking the verse out of context.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This is not talking about you or me or anyone else having a private interpretation of the prophecy, but rather about the prophets not having a private interpretation of the prophecies given to them by the Holy Spirit. How can I trust anything you say when you misinterpret a verse like this and take it out of context? Using spiritual discernment to interpret what symbolic text means is not a case of making things up. That is nonsense.

As far as symbolism, it's pretty easy to determine when symbolism is used, and the Bible explains the Bible.

It seems to me that it's very difficult for you to determine that. That's my opinion. You seem to think that unless it explicitly tells us something is a symbol, it can't be a symbol. That is just silly. You have the man-made rules you go by, but that is not wise.

Good question. The fact that the 24 elders have crowns tells us that Jesus has come and they have new bodies.

That is your assumption and nothing more. Unless you can say who exactly the 24 elders are, there's no reason to believe you about this.

Here is a question for you. Why are there soul under alter and not standing before the throne of God?

I don't know exactly, but how is this relevant to anything?

It's literal so there is no private interpretation. Scripture makes a lot more sense when we keep our personal opinions out of the matter.

Again, you are taking 2 Peter 1:20 out of context.

The living will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. The dead in Christ go to heaven.

That is not what Paul wrote! You are not taking what he wrote as written. You violate your own "as written" rule repeatedly. I can't take it seriously. He said after the dead in Christ rise those who are alive and remain are "caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air". They meet the Lord in the air, they don't go to heaven. Please stop making things up. Why do you abandon your "as written" rule in this case? There's no consistency in your approach.

When Christ returns for the alive that remained, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The alive will caught up and meet them in the air.

In no way, shape or form does Paul say that the dead in Christ are raised from the dead and taken to heaven and then Christ leaves heaven again to get those who are alive and remain. You are not taking Paul's words as written.

Thanks for the discussion, but this is giving me a headache. You keep trying to tell me how I should approach interpreting scripture and you don't even abide by your own rules consistently. I can't take what you're saying seriously because of that.

 

[Keraz]

It shall be in similitude as in the day of NOAH…..who he himself was raised UP above the Earth WHILE the Unrighteous were Killed by Water.

Your rejection of Gods PEACE and COMFORT plan for FAITHFUL manKIND, is hypocrisy on it’s face.

You rapture to heaven believers are a laugh a minute.
Noahs Ark floating on the flood, is not parallel to going to heaven.

The Lord does Promise peace and prosperity to those who prove their faith by standing firm in their trust He will protect them, whatever happens.
a pre-trib rapture is impossible and will never happen.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nope, no such idea as a pre-trib rapture written in God's Word.

Christ was emphatic in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming and gathering of the saints will be AFTER... the tribulation of those days.

And what He taught there are the SAME events that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

Yes we can all see Noah and lot gathered after the flood / city destroyed.
Jesus told you before the flood one taken/one left.
But that is just Jesus words.
Only pretrib rapture fits

 

[Taken]

You rapture to heaven believers are a laugh a minute.

Nothing FUNNY about Trusting Gods word.

Noahs Ark floating on the flood, is not parallel to going to heaven. Very ODD, you do know KNOW HEAVEN is ABOVE the EARTH.

Pss 103:
[11] For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Gen 7
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

The ARK was LIFTED UP ABOVE THE EARTH…ABOVE THE MOUNTAIN TOPS…
UP to Heaven!

DUH…DESTRUCTION was UPON the EARTH!

The Lord does Promise peace and prosperity to those who prove their faith by standing firm in their trust He will protect them, whatever happens.

Rolleyes
Gods Promise to His Saved and Born Again, IS to Forever:
~ Be WITH God
~ Be at PEACE, REST, COMFORT, JOY.

a pre-trib rapture is impossible and will never happen.

Apparently YOU are of the Opinion that Gods ORDER AND WAY for WHEN God INTENDS TO DESTROY THE EARTH….God removing His Faithful FROM the FACE of the EARTH, IS Impossible….for God to Accomplish A SECOND TIME!

Now the Funny thing is….during Noah’s Day…there were likely men LIKE YOU, who didn’t Believe it possible for God to Destroy the whole Earth with Water….and no matter…. Fact is the entire population (save eight) drowned in “their own false belief”….

Astounding you think your Opinion trumps the possible capability of Gods Power.
UGH!

 

[Taken]

Nope, no such idea as a pre-trib rapture written in God's Word.

Christ was emphatic in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming and gathering of the saints will be AFTER... the tribulation of those days.

And what He taught there are the SAME events that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

Rapture APPLIES “EXPRESSLY” to the CHURCH… They have “ALReADY been MADE WHOLE…body, soul, spirit…
They simply are waiting for the manifestation; of the APPEARANCE of their NEW GLORIFIED BODY….that which human eyes CAN NOT SEE!

Resurrection (raising from the dead) Has occurred for Centuries, to this day, and shall continue to the END of Mortal existence….

THEN shall “MASSES” of REMAINING human BODIES….unbelievers and believers BE RAISED UP and JUDGED.

 

[Davy]

Your comment reflects your utter lack of Understanding …
* Christ Jesus DID NOT SUFFER “Tribulation” from God.
* Christ Jesus DID NOT SUFFER “Wrath of God.”

You're not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Lord Jesus is Whom I quoted with the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which is also what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, which is... about a Post-tribulational gathering of the Church.

So you must... address those Scriptures to make your point. Otherwise you only show how you are just following the opinions of men from their doctrines, and not God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

Yes we can all see Noah and lot gathered after the flood / city destroyed.

Wrong, Noah was not gathered from the earth. Instead Noah was protected inside the ark to go through... the flood. God even sealed the door of that ark for Noah. That ark was upon the 'height' of the flood waters for 150 days, as written. That flood is symbolically represented in Revelation 12 with the flood of waters symbol of the serpent attacking God's elect for the end of this world.

But of course your listening to men's false doctrines like a false pre-trib rapture has caused you to not realize any of the above Bible Scripture facts about Noah and its link to the symbolic 'ark' of protection for the end times, for Lord Jesus Christ now is our ark of protection to go through the coming "great tribulation".

Jesus told you before the flood one taken/one left.

What Jesus taught in Luke 17 about the one 'taken' and the other left reveals that His servants DO NOT want to be the 1st ones 'taken'. Jesus even showed in Luke 17:37 where those 'taken' would be gathered to when His disciples asked Him...

Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

The Matthew 24:28 version of Jesus' answer is even more revealing...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

The above is where the 1st ones 'taken' are taken to. They are taken to where Satan's servants as fowls of prey feast on a dead carcase.

Those in Christ are to stay grinding at the mill, left behind still doing Christ's work on earth when He finds us so doing when He appears.

But that is just Jesus words.

What you said is NOT Jesus' words. They are MEN's words, which is what you are following.

I showed you above what Jesus' Words are about the 1st one 'taken' and the other left behind, which will be found still working for Christ when He comes.

Only pretrib rapture fits

Pre-trib doesn't fit the Scriptures at all. You saying the above means that you heed the doctrines of men of a false pre-trib rapture theory, which indeed is a very popular doctrine among some churches today, yet it is false doctrine devised by men, and is nowhere written in God's Word.

 

[Davy]

Rapture APPLIES “EXPRESSLY” to the CHURCH… They have “ALReADY been MADE WHOLE…body, soul, spirit…
They simply are waiting for the manifestation; of the APPEARANCE of their NEW GLORIFIED BODY….that which human eyes CAN NOT SEE!

Resurrection (raising from the dead) Has occurred for Centuries, to this day, and shall continue to the END of Mortal existence….

THEN shall “MASSES” of REMAINING human BODIES….unbelievers and believers BE RAISED UP and JUDGED.

Bible Scripture support please.

 

[Keraz]

Nothing FUNNY about Trusting Gods word.

If only it was Gods Word that you trusted.

What makes me laugh, is the hopeless inconsistency of the 'rapture to heaven' believers. The pretentious pre-trib, the unlikely mid-trib and the post-trib belief that has the Church going to heaven, while Jesus is back on earth!
Then there is those crazies who just say: anytime Lord; just whisk me away from this worldly mess.

Have any of you tried to consider the Lords reasoning about rapturing His people away from the earth? Why would He do that?
Isn't our role to be His witnesses and His Light to the nations? How can we do that in heaven?

I suggest the those who have that escapist mentality, seriously reconsider their beliefs, before it is too late and they have to answer to God for their mistake.

 

[The Light]

You're not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hmmmm

Lord Jesus is Whom I quoted with the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which is also what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, which is... about a Post-tribulational gathering of the Church.

Please produce a Biblical proof that it is the Church being raptured from the earth in 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. I already know that you cannot possibly do it.

Please Biblical proof that 1 Thessalonians 4 references a post tribulation rapture. I already know that you cannot possibly do it.

So you must... address those Scriptures to make your point.

No. It is you that have made a claim...........which you cannot possibly prove. There is no proof that it is the Church being raptured after the tribulation. There is proof that there is a rapture after the tribulation, but it is certainly not the current mostly Gentile Church. There is also no proof that Paul is referring to a post tribulation rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Otherwise you only show how you are just following the opinions of men from their doctrines, and not God's written Word.

I think it is you that are following the doctrines of unbelieving men.

 

[The Light]

What makes me laugh, is the hopeless inconsistency of the 'rapture to heaven' believers. The pretentious pre-trib, the unlikely mid-trib and the post-trib belief that has the Church going to heaven, while Jesus is back on earth!

It is your false contention that Jesus will be on earth at the time of any of those possible raptures.

Then there is those crazies who just say: anytime Lord; just whisk me away from this worldly mess.

Enoch was whisked away, Elijah was whisked away. The 144,000 will be whisked away. Just as the Church will be whisked away.

Have any of you tried to consider the Lords reasoning about rapturing His people away from the earth? Why would He do that?

God tells us why in His Word. We are to attend the marriage supper of the Lamb. He has gone to prepare a place for us that where He is we may be also. This is pretty basic cut and dried stuff. The fact you are unable to understand or accept what is written doesn't change the facts.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Isn't our role to be His witnesses and His Light to the nations? How can we do that in heaven?

Oh you make me laugh. How are you going to be a witness to the world when you are dead? What's your plan to fulfill your role as a witness after you are dead?

I suggest the those who have that escapist mentality, seriously reconsider their beliefs, before it is too late and they have to answer to God for their mistake.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You're not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Lord Jesus is Whom I quoted with the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which is also what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, which is... about a Post-tribulational gathering of the Church.

So you must... address those Scriptures to make your point. Otherwise you only show how you are just following the opinions of men from their doctrines, and not God's written Word.

All rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, and normal life.
Run that through your imagined doctrine

Your doctrine ,however, needs Noah and lot gathered post trib...SMH
It also needs the rapture verses removed as the setting is OPPOSITE YOUR RAPTURE THEORY.
That alone blows a hole in your Doctrine you could sell a ship through

 

[rebuilder 454]

It is your false contention that Jesus will be on earth at the time of any of those possible raptures.


Enoch was whisked away, Elijah was whisked away. The 144,000 will be whisked away. Just as the Church will be whisked away.


God tells us why in His Word. We are to attend the marriage supper of the Lamb. He has gone to prepare a place for us that where He is we may be also. This is pretty basic cut and dried stuff. The fact you are unable to understand or accept what is written doesn't change the facts.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.




Oh you make me laugh. How are you going to be a witness to the world when you are dead? What's your plan to fulfill your role as a witness after you are dead?


Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Yes
I would also add that Jesus in acts was whisked away and we were told that He would return in like manner.
That can only be the setting and manner of a pretrib rapture.
No other position has that correct.
He comes with a few watching for Him, in a peacetime setting and no white horses and no sickle....LIKE MANNER.
The angels actually testified of 3 raptures in acts 1 because they set apart his return from the 144 k gathering, and the rev14 14 gathering of the Jewish main harvest.
Not to.mention like manner has the elephant in the room of no white horses and no warrior king