Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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GodsGrace

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Wow, there is so much misinformation in your post (which I understand, you’ve been ingrained with) it wouldn’t matter how I addressed the points…
But maybe this:


What about those religions that have killed their brothers in warfare? In circumstances where showing love would be the most challenging (and the most important), the majority of christendom has joined the world in its bloodshed! (The very world which Jesus said to be “no part of” John 15:19) Even being the cause at times, as in the 30 years’ war.
So, let's reason together.
Are you saying that if some planes fall out of the sky we should stop flying?
Yes. I think this is what you're saying.

I REALLY don't know what you're talking about.

You want to discuss history?
Are you a JW?
WHEN did the witnesses begin their church?

A Christian is a “follower of Christ”, and obedient to Jesus’ “commands” one of which is to ‘love their brothers’ (John 13:34,35; 15:12,17).
If trinitarians believe Jesus is their God, how much more so should they obey Him!!
Actually, the above is not a description of Jesus.
Perhaps this is where the problem lies.

What we need to ask ourselves is:
WHO IS JESUS?

If He's a man and we follow Him.....are we Christian?
Or are we just following a man?

But the record shows they haven’t; not when it was most important, protecting people’s lives.

Matthew 7:21-23…

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful / powerful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Killing your Christian brother qualifies as iniquity/evil.
Why are you addressing this post to ME?
I haven't killed anyone and I don't hate anyone.
WHICH Christian brother have I killed?
OR
Whom have I killed that THINKS he's Christian?
A question, though: the ones doing these powerful works… from where are they getting this power? Not from Jesus or His Father!

Revelation 12:9; 1 John 3:10-16

By their fruits you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:20); see above.

Hope you will have a good day.
Yes. Well you have a good day too.
 
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GodsGrace

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You do not need to read any doctrine to become Born Again.?

We are not Born Again by reading doctrine...we are Born Again by the Living Holy Spirit.

I have already spoken to you about Calvin, I have never ever read any of his teachings in my life...so stop with the remarks that I’m a Calvinist....I am not...I’m Born Again.
Sweetie,
It matters not if you've read Calvin or not.
You're still a calvinist because you follow Calvin's teachings.
That's what a Calvinist is: Someone who follows the teachings of Calvin instead of the teachings of Jesus.
 
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GodsGrace

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God was in eternity. He was spirit and had no beginning,
Ditto for the Son.
John 17:4-5
4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.
5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


Before the world began...
Before the universe...
Before there was anything...
Eternity.

Jesus, as the WORD/LOGOS, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, ALWAYS existed.

and was not begotten, and scripture says He can not change. He wanted to set up the universe, with the garden of Eden within, in order to produce His children, but He could not enter into another realm (physical) so in eternity, His Word was begotten, not made and that being shared in the same essence (and also did the Holy Spirit who would proceed later).
To PROCEED from something means that it was already there but it "comes out".


I earlier used the rib of Adam becoming woman as an analogy. Something like that.

The three are the only persons who can share in that nature. They share in the same nature but are in different positions of agency.
What is "different position of agency"?

The Father is at the top as far as agency is concerned according to he many scriptures the Uni's are producing.
But the "uni's" are wrong. Why keep bringing them up?
The Father is not at the top.
All 3 are One God or we have 3 gods.

Because the Begotten shared in His essence, He was also God. I believe at that point the Word came into being, God the Father had broken though and now there was creation, and in the beginning of it was the Word, and the Word was God, in a way we cannot quite grasp.
I think I've said this before:
I think you're conflating JESUS BIRTH
with Jesus as the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

Jesus came into being 2 thousand years ago.
THE SON, The Word/Logos, ALWAYS existed.

We must refer to the Son as the Son and we don't refer to Him as the Word because He became human and
so we refer to the human Jesus....Maybe we should be calling Jesus the word ----maybe that would make more HUMAN SENSE
and would make this easier to grasp?

The Word was/is God.
The Word was with God in the Garden.
The Word came to earth 2 thousand years ago.
The Word went to the cross.
We are saved by The Word.

What do you think?
 

Wrangler

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What we need to ask ourselves is:
WHO IS JESUS?

If He's a man and we follow Him.....are we Christian?
Or are we just following a man?
Your theology is totally messed up! We can only follow a man and that is the whole point of Jesus' ministry! Us following this man is the whole point of YHWH sending him. He died and was resurrected, the first fruit - meaning other men to follow. If Jesus is not a man then we lost our guarantee of our inheritance as children of YHWH and our only mediator to YHWH.

Tell me you know that the Lord God sent the Lord Jesus to be for us, the truth, the light and the way?
 

GodsGrace

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I've learned a long time ago, who I want to talk to and who I don't. I learned when to quit a discussion; and how to resist returning to it...
Hey You,,,,
Those fs are a mistake, but I did want to reply to your post above.
Been on these forums many years. I get to know folk pretty fast.
Sometimes I post to a person because I enjoy speaking to them.
Sometimes because we have something in common.
At times because I find them edifying.
But most of the time I reply because I think we need to bring forward a different point of
view from the one being expressed by the other member.
As I said to one of my friends here earlier,,,I don't think we should allow Christianity to be watered down.
And I don't think those with heretical beliefs should just go ahead and post with no push-back.
As to resisting....yes, I do a lot of resisting because at times it just turns into an argument and we should just
leave the conversation.
Thanks for the words.
 
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Lizbeth

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No. Not deeper. A is A. That's what it means (in one accord) and that's it.

And the accord was not total since he asked for the bitter cup to be taken from him. I don't blame him for that. I blame trinitarians for supposing 3 = 1.
Well, that's the mystery, isn't it. You're making a mistake by expecting your carnal mind to get it. Are you familiar with the verse that says to lean not on your own understanding....? Why is that? Because as scripture attests, the carnal mind of the natural man can't perceive the things of God, they must be spiritually discerned......the carnal mind is ENMITY against God. We need to just humbly receive what is written. Our heart can receive truth long before our mind is illuminated to it. That's why we are to be in the spirit (heart) and not the flesh (carnal mind). When we're in the flesh and carnal mind we can't please God.
 

GodsGrace

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Your theology is totally messed up! We can only follow a man and that is the whole point of Jesus' ministry! Us following this man is the whole point of YHWH sending him. He died and was resurrected, the first fruit - meaning other men to follow. If Jesus is not a man then we lost our guarantee of our inheritance as children of YHWH and our only mediator to YHWH.

Tell me you know that the Lord God sent the Lord Jesus to be for us, the truth, the light and the way?
This is what I know Wrangler....
1. You DO NOT reply to scripture....you just post other verses instead.
This is called verse ping pong and not a sport I enjoy.

2. In order to be defined CHRISTIAN...a person must believe Jesus is God.
This required accepting the Trinity as doctrine.
Some may understand it in slightly different ways and this can be allowed if it helps a person to understand it.
For instance....John 1:1 made me understand the Trinity and why Jesus is God.

3. How about replying to some scripture for a change?

Mark 14:
61... Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?
62And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
63Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64“You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?”

 

Hey You!

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Hey You,,,,
Those fs are a mistake, but I did want to reply to your post above.
Been on these forums many years. I get to know folk pretty fast.
Sometimes I post to a person because I enjoy speaking to them.
Sometimes because we have something in common.
At times because I find them edifying.
But most of the time I reply because I think we need to bring forward a different point of
view from the one being expressed by the other member.
As I said to one of my friends here earlier,,,I don't think we should allow Christianity to be watered down.
And I don't think those with heretical beliefs should just go ahead and post with no push-back.
As to resisting....yes, I do a lot of resisting because at times it just turns into an argument and we should just
leave the conversation.
Thanks for the words.
I've just now wanted to return to Action on Christian Debate Forums, so I joined here. It got so bad when I was on CARM, that I lost interest: no one cared about my good points...

So I gave up...
 

GodsGrace

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I accept logic as tool of rationality, yes.

No, not the same for the reasons I gave you the first time. According to Trinitarians, "God" is the term they use for "being", whereas "Word" is the term they use for an attribute of his being. An attribute of a thing is not the thing in itself. Since your second statement is invalid, the two statements are not equivalence.
God is a being.
OK

The question is this: Is the Word an attribute?
Let me ask you this: Is your mind an attribute of yours?
Or is what your mind wills, believes, etc. the attribute?

Would you say, more likely, that your mind is a part of your being?

Also

You apparently are not familiar with a Christian teaching called Divine Simplicity.
You say that "an attribute of a thing is not the thing itself".
Right....a thing has many attributes.
This is true in PHILOSOPHY.

We're in THEOLOGY here....
In theology God IS the thing itself.

God does not come in parts the way we humans do.
He is a whole and cannot be separated from Himself.

Notice that John does not say that God has love.
Or that God is loving.
No. What John says is this:
GOD IS LOVE.

Love is NOT an attribute of God the way YOU are understanding it.
God IS ALL OF HIS ATTRIBUTES....
NOT SEPARATED...
BUT IN THE WHOLE.

So, since your statement is invalid...you entire premise falls apart.

Learn some Christian theology before you attempt to teach it to Christians.
 

Hey You!

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Well, that's the mystery, isn't it. You're making a mistake by expecting your carnal mind to get it. Are you familiar with the verse that says to lean not on your own understanding....? Why is that? Because as scripture attests, the carnal mind of the natural man can't perceive the things of God, they must be spiritually discerned......the carnal mind is ENMITY against God. We need to just humbly receive what is written. Our heart can receive truth long before our mind is illuminated to it. That's why we are to be in the spirit (heart) and not the flesh (carnal mind). When we're in the flesh and carnal mind we can't please God.
1+1+1=1?? ~ by * January 1

Matthew 28:19 KJV; Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

There are several Verses in the Bible which teach us that God is a Trinity. What is a Trinity? The Trinity is a concept of God existing as three Divine persons; yet remaining One God. This is not an easy idea to wrap our Minds around. Some suggest examples like the three states of water; gas, liquid and solid. Others suggest Government as a model for the Trinity; the Legislature, Judiciary and the Executive branches are the one Federal Government. But examples outside of the Bible have a way of falling short in describing the Trinity. ~ It’s said there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word and the Spirit; and these three are one. To many people, this is one of the most absurd things that can be said, and they claim it’s intellectually inconceivable! They say that it is a Mathematical Fact that 1+1+1=3, but 1+1+1=1 is laughable; and they’re right. ~ You object, “Why are you conceding the argument so easily??” I’m not but the truth is the truth; right? You ask, “Then what kind of intellectual gymnastics are you going to try and pull to make your point?” No Gymnastics necessary, just the simple Math that is taught in our Elementary Schools…

It is amazing how as we grow older, we lose some of our simplest Cognitive skills. On the television show ‘Brain Games’, they tested a group of adults and children by using a simple drawing of a School bus. It was yellow, had wheels and windows; but both ends looked the same. The question was asked which way would the bus go if it pulled away; left or right? About 25% of adults got it right but almost all of the children were correct. When the children were asked why they said it would go left, they said because the bus door was on the other side, and this told them which end was the front of the bus. ~ When we were in Elementary School, we learned that 1x1=1. We also learned that 1x1x1=1; we see that the concept of the Trinity is really child’s play! There is no need to jump through any ‘algebraic hoops’; Three Ones equaling One is a Logical concept! We should be asking, “How is it that I didn’t see that?” ~ There are other things that we also don’t see until it is put in a way we can understand. God gave us the Ten Commandments, and they tell us not to commit Adultery or Murder. We can say we’ve never Murdered, and some can say they’ve never committed Adultery. But Jesus put it in an elementary way we can understand; he said if you Hate someone you’ve Murdered them in your Heart and if you’ve Lusted after someone you’ve committed Adultery in your Heart! God sends Sinners to an eternal Hell but you don’t have to go…

The good news is that the Gospel is also elementary. ~ For God so loved the World he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! The second person of the Trinity condescended to be born as the Man Jesus Christ, and suppressed his Divine privileges to live on our level. Jesus lived a Sinless life as only he could, and this pleased God his Father. Jesus came to die and be the sacrifice for Sin, so that we can have eternal Life. He was buried but arose from the dead and ascended to Heaven, where he awaits the time his Father has set for him to return and Judge the world. When you put your Faith in the finished Work of the GodMan Jesus Christ, you will be Saved. ~ Here is some more simple Math for you. God became Man and the two are one; 100% God and 100% Man, yet only One Being. 100% x 100% = One. ~ 1÷1÷1 also equals One; the Word and the Spirit proceed from the Father, the three are One!

John 1:14 NIV; The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
 

GodsGrace

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Don't confuse a lack of familiarity with invalidity. I recommend that you trace the Biblical background on various terms such as "son of God," "Christ," and "son of Man. " Then, you will be in a better position to make sense of the NT passages.
You do the same if you wish to call yourself a Christian.

Does Immanuel mean GOD WITH US?

Let's also consider the following:

Acts 7:55-59 The Stoning of Stephen
55But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.
58When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”



You tell me to study what THE SON OF GOD means.
Let me ask you this:

If it means so little...which is apparently what you're stating...
then WHY was Jesus killed for this.....the High Priest calling Him a blasphemer (Mark 14:64)
and WHY was Stephen stones for using the same expression?

Perhaps it meant something MORE than what YOU believe it does??

Logic....you like logic....use it.
 
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Lizbeth

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I think it is on the lines of the Father creating all things through the Son. So Christ created all things in a sense too.
I'm just back to Jesus saying He and the Father are one. And it's a mystery as to how that is. But are there any other scriptures besides Proverbs 8 that would support the idea you are putting forth? We can maybe look at them and see if they bring any clarity to the subject, on either side.
1+1+1=1?? ~ by * January 1

Matthew 28:19 KJV; Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

There are several Verses in the Bible which teach us that God is a Trinity. What is a Trinity? The Trinity is a concept of God existing as three Divine persons; yet remaining One God. This is not an easy idea to wrap our Minds around. Some suggest examples like the three states of water; gas, liquid and solid. Others suggest Government as a model for the Trinity; the Legislature, Judiciary and the Executive branches are the one Federal Government. But examples outside of the Bible have a way of falling short in describing the Trinity. ~ It’s said there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word and the Spirit; and these three are one. To many people, this is one of the most absurd things that can be said, and they claim it’s intellectually inconceivable! They say that it is a Mathematical Fact that 1+1+1=3, but 1+1+1=1 is laughable; and they’re right. ~ You object, “Why are you conceding the argument so easily??” I’m not but the truth is the truth; right? You ask, “Then what kind of intellectual gymnastics are you going to try and pull to make your point?” No Gymnastics necessary, just the simple Math that is taught in our Elementary Schools…

It is amazing how as we grow older, we lose some of our simplest Cognitive skills. On the television show ‘Brain Games’, they tested a group of adults and children by using a simple drawing of a School bus. It was yellow, had wheels and windows; but both ends looked the same. The question was asked which way would the bus go if it pulled away; left or right? About 25% of adults got it right but almost all of the children were correct. When the children were asked why they said it would go left, they said because the bus door was on the other side, and this told them which end was the front of the bus. ~ When we were in Elementary School, we learned that 1x1=1. We also learned that 1x1x1=1; we see that the concept of the Trinity is really child’s play! There is no need to jump through any ‘algebraic hoops’; Three Ones equaling One is a Logical concept! We should be asking, “How is it that I didn’t see that?” ~ There are other things that we also don’t see until it is put in a way we can understand. God gave us the Ten Commandments, and they tell us not to commit Adultery or Murder. We can say we’ve never Murdered, and some can say they’ve never committed Adultery. But Jesus put it in an elementary way we can understand; he said if you Hate someone you’ve Murdered them in your Heart and if you’ve Lusted after someone you’ve committed Adultery in your Heart! God sends Sinners to an eternal Hell but you don’t have to go…

The good news is that the Gospel is also elementary. ~ For God so loved the World he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! The second person of the Trinity condescended to be born as the Man Jesus Christ, and suppressed his Divine privileges to live on our level. Jesus lived a Sinless life as only he could, and this pleased God his Father. Jesus came to die and be the sacrifice for Sin, so that we can have eternal Life. He was buried but arose from the dead and ascended to Heaven, where he awaits the time his Father has set for him to return and Judge the world. When you put your Faith in the finished Work of the GodMan Jesus Christ, you will be Saved. ~ Here is some more simple Math for you. God became Man and the two are one; 100% God and 100% Man, yet only One Being. 100% x 100% = One. ~ 1÷1÷1 also equals One; the Word and the Spirit proceed from the Father, the three are One!

John 1:14 NIV; The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Agree with a lot that you have written here. Just that I'm not sure of the logic with your math there, but never mind, speaking of cognitive skills, lol.

That verse that says these three bear record in heaven is in major dispute...it appears to have been added much later than the original manuscripts, so I try to avoid that one now. If it was added it might have been because it had accidentally or erroneously been removed in the first place and God wanted it restored, but people who know it was added later will not accept it in any case, so we need to be able to make a case without it.
 
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Hey You!

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I'm just back to Jesus saying He and the Father are one. And it's a mystery as to how that is. But are there any other scriptures besides Proverbs 8 that would support the idea you are putting forth? We can maybe look at them and see if they bring any clarity to the subject, on either side.

Agree with a lot that you have written here. Just that I'm not sure of the logic with your math there, but never mind, speaking of cognitive skills, lol.

That verse that says these three bear record in heaven is in major dispute...it appears to have been added much later than the original manuscripts, so I try to avoid that one now. If it was added it might have been because it had accidentally or erroneously been removed in the first place and God wanted it restored, but people who know it was added later will not accept it in any case, so we need to be able to make a case without it.
I know; it's why I say, "It is said...". I usually know most of the Disputes, so I try to iterate things in a way they are less Contraversial or less distracting. My Gospel Tracts are meant for the Laity or the unlearned Lost. By saying, "It is said...", I'm not saying, "The Bible says..."

Thanks for liking the Tract. I think the Math will hit home with most people. I'm not trying to prove Monotheistic Trinitarianism, but I'm trying to prove that 'Three Ones equaling One', is not an Illogical Concept, as is often said. Once it's Substantiated, then Monotheists should let us attempt to show our interpretation of Scripture is Sound...

As far as the last Equations go, %100 x %100 =1; done on a Calculator, adds up. Same goes for 1x1x1=1 and for 1÷1÷1=1...
 
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