Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[RLT63]

Nonsense. You don't have an argument of your own. So, your pretend my argument works against me. False witness. Still no answers to post #3,707.

I'm done. Go on believing as you do You've accused me of idolatry, ignorance, false witness and other things.
That's not the way to have a discussion.
Have a good day

 

[Wrangler]

You've accused me of idolatry, ignorance, false witness and other things.

Accusations are not inherently false. Seems it is OK for you to accuse me of things. See post #3706, 3708, 3713, 3,716, 3718, 3720.

 

[RLT63]

Accusations are not inherently false. Seems it is OK for you to accuse me of things. See post #3706, 3708, 3713, 3,716, 3718, 3720.

View attachment 57493

I looked at all those and I don't see the equivalence.
I invite everyone reading the thread to look at those posts

 

[APAK]

No need to be so facetious-


Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" (1996) addresses the use of pronouns for λόγος in contexts like John 1:1. He specifically discusses whether the pronoun αὐτός in John 1:2 (οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν) should be translated as "he," "it," or "this one." His commentary focuses on the theological and syntactical implications of this decision.

Wallace’s Key Observations:
Gender Agreement and Context:
Wallace emphasizes that αὐτός refers back to λόγος in John 1:1, which is grammatically masculine. Greek pronouns typically agree in gender and number with their antecedent. Therefore, αὐτός is masculine because λόγος is masculine. However, the choice of pronoun in English depends not just on grammatical gender but also on context and meaning.

"It" vs. "He" in Translation:
Wallace argues that in non-theological contexts, λόγος could be rendered "it" if the term simply refers to a concept like "word" or "speech." However, in John 1:1–2, λόγος is personified and explicitly identified as divine. Wallace states that the context—both literary and theological—makes "he" the only appropriate English pronoun. Translating it as "it" would obscure the Johannine intent to present the λόγος as a person, specifically the preexistent Christ.

Definite Personal Identity of the Λόγος:
Wallace points out that οὗτος ("this one") in John 1:2 reinforces the personal nature of λόγος. The shift from the generic λόγος as "word" or "reason" to a personal identity is a deliberate theological move by the author of John. Wallace highlights that this personification culminates in John 1:14 (ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο, "the Word became flesh"), where the λόγος is undeniably a person, Jesus Christ.

Translational Implications:
Translating αὐτός or οὗτος as "it" in John 1:1–2, Wallace notes, would lead to significant theological distortion. The personal pronoun "he" must be used to maintain the intent of the text to depict the λόγος as a divine person in relationship with God (i.e., the Father).

Conclusion (Based on Wallace):
Wallace would firmly reject translating λόγος with "it" in John 1:1–2 or related passages because the context clearly presents λόγος as a person (Christ). He emphasizes that while λόγος could theoretically be treated as an abstract concept in other settings, the prologue of John demands the personal pronoun "he." For Wallace, the combination of grammar, syntax, and theology strongly supports this interpretation.

"was" (thrice) This is an imperfect tense (cf. Joh_1:1-2; Joh_1:4; Joh_1:10) which focuses on continual existence in past time. This tense is used to show the Logos' pre-existence (cf. Joh_8:57-58; Joh_17:5; Joh_17:24; 2Co_8:9; Col_1:17; Heb_10:5-7). It is contrasted with the aorist tensesof Joh_1:3; Joh_1:6; Joh_1:14.

"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom."

John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message.

You may "slice N' dice" any which way you want @APAK -the Logos is a Person, not a concept in the mind of YHWH-and that Person is none other that Jesus Christ.

J.

No need to be so facetious-


Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" (1996) addresses the use of pronouns for λόγος in contexts like John 1:1. He specifically discusses whether the pronoun αὐτός in John 1:2 (οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν) should be translated as "he," "it," or "this one." His commentary focuses on the theological and syntactical implications of this decision.

Wallace’s Key Observations:
Gender Agreement and Context:
Wallace emphasizes that αὐτός refers back to λόγος in John 1:1, which is grammatically masculine. Greek pronouns typically agree in gender and number with their antecedent. Therefore, αὐτός is masculine because λόγος is masculine. However, the choice of pronoun in English depends not just on grammatical gender but also on context and meaning.

"It" vs. "He" in Translation:
Wallace argues that in non-theological contexts, λόγος could be rendered "it" if the term simply refers to a concept like "word" or "speech." However, in John 1:1–2, λόγος is personified and explicitly identified as divine. Wallace states that the context—both literary and theological—makes "he" the only appropriate English pronoun. Translating it as "it" would obscure the Johannine intent to present the λόγος as a person, specifically the preexistent Christ.

Definite Personal Identity of the Λόγος:
Wallace points out that οὗτος ("this one") in John 1:2 reinforces the personal nature of λόγος. The shift from the generic λόγος as "word" or "reason" to a personal identity is a deliberate theological move by the author of John. Wallace highlights that this personification culminates in John 1:14 (ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο, "the Word became flesh"), where the λόγος is undeniably a person, Jesus Christ.

Translational Implications:
Translating αὐτός or οὗτος as "it" in John 1:1–2, Wallace notes, would lead to significant theological distortion. The personal pronoun "he" must be used to maintain the intent of the text to depict the λόγος as a divine person in relationship with God (i.e., the Father).

Conclusion (Based on Wallace):
Wallace would firmly reject translating λόγος with "it" in John 1:1–2 or related passages because the context clearly presents λόγος as a person (Christ). He emphasizes that while λόγος could theoretically be treated as an abstract concept in other settings, the prologue of John demands the personal pronoun "he." For Wallace, the combination of grammar, syntax, and theology strongly supports this interpretation.

"was" (thrice) This is an imperfect tense (cf. Joh_1:1-2; Joh_1:4; Joh_1:10) which focuses on continual existence in past time. This tense is used to show the Logos' pre-existence (cf. Joh_8:57-58; Joh_17:5; Joh_17:24; 2Co_8:9; Col_1:17; Heb_10:5-7). It is contrasted with the aorist tensesof Joh_1:3; Joh_1:6; Joh_1:14.

"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom."

John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message.

You may "slice N' dice" any which way you want @APAK -the Logos is a Person, not a concept in the mind of YHWH-and that Person is none other that Jesus Christ.

J.

Not getting into your Trinitarian bias and the authors of it that produce conclusions without viewing scripture in context and the historical record in critical areas. This Texas man is a show-boat as far as I'm concerned who appeals to the ignorant. And this type of response from you will always be a one-way communique....

Tell me J. what do think is the primary theme, reason for writing John's Gospel for Chapter 1, and not just in John 1:1-3 or John 1:18 either? The answer must be specific and complete to the best of your ability...thx

From this, maybe a fruitful discussion can be had...
----------------------------------

PS I forgot to add to this post.....

You said that good Daniel wrote in his Book..."Wallace argues that in non-theological contexts, λόγος could be rendered "it" if the term simply refers to a concept like "word" or "speech." However, in John 1:1–2, λόγος is personified and explicitly identified as divine. Wallace states that the context—both literary and theological—makes "he" the only appropriate English pronoun. Translating it as "it" would obscure the Johannine intent to present the λόγος as a person, specifically the preexistent Christ."

So Daniel makes two glaring error here, and yet you still agree with him...

1, There are many places where logos in the NT is contextually theological , as pertinent to God himself, and the logos as a pronoun would be called a 'thing' or an 'it.'

(Mat 15:6) he shall not honour his father. Thus you have made void the word of God because of your tradition.
Here the word/logos of God would be God's divine quality that is an 'it' or an 'this' where appropriately applied. It would be ridiculous to say made void the Son of God....and the word or message/command in this context means one of the 10 Cs..honoring parents....

2. Just because logos became personalized since the 1600s, this does not give license to believe it implies divinity of a person.

Now either Daniel make an error, because in the same breath, he says the logos is divine as the quality of the Father only. And by strong implication not his Son. And I agree with this of course. Check it out...

 

[Johann]

Not getting into your Trinitarian bias and the authors of it that produce conclusions without viewing scripture in context and the historical record in critical areas. This Texas man is a show-boat as far as I'm concerned who appeals to the ignorant. And this type of response from you will always be a one-way communique....

Tell me J. what do think is the primary theme, reason for writing John's Gospel for Chapter 1, and not just in John 1:1-3 or John 1:18 either? The answer must be specific and complete to the best of your ability...thx

From this, maybe a fruitful discussion can be had...

You and I aren’t scholars, @APAK, and it seems we might have a difference of opinion on Wallace and my exegetical approach, but I’d like to hear your perspective.

Provide your exegesis of John and his high Christology of Christ Jesus, and perhaps, as you mentioned, we can engage in a meaningful discussion.

J.

 

[APAK]

You and I aren’t scholars, @APAK, and it seems we might have a difference of opinion on Wallace and my exegetical approach, but I’d like to hear your perspective.

Provide your exegesis of John and his high Christology of Christ Jesus, and perhaps, as you mentioned, we can engage in a meaningful discussion.

J.

No no can you just for once answer my request and move on...I can then do the same..it cannot be that difficult

and I just added in a few more lines I suddenly forgot to address from before

 

[Wrangler]

Tell me J. what do think is the primary theme, reason for writing John's Gospel for Chapter 1, and not just in John 1:1-3 or John 1:18 either? The answer must be specific and complete to the best of your ability

I was thinking along the same lines. Context kills trinitarianism.

 

[Johann]

No no can you just for once answer my request and move on...I can then do the same..it cannot be that difficult

and I just added in a few more lines I suddenly forgot to address from before

What is there for me to answer as I fully concur with Wallace and other scholars on John?

J.

 

[Johann]

I was thinking along the same lines. Context kills trinitarianism.

I'm all for context friend-stay out of this, this is between me and @APAK.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Accusations are not inherently false. Seems it is OK for you to accuse me of things. See post #3706, 3708, 3713, 3,716, 3718, 3720.

View attachment 57493

a point has been made . WHILE ITS VERY TRUE that not all accusations are false NOR IS IT WRONG to expose such who do teach
error . But reader , reader , reader and all beware .
WHAT IF JESUS IS BEING FASLEY ACCUSED , what if HIS WORDS are being denied.
WHY did i remind you and us all about this today .
WHAT IF I TOLD you that JESUS himself , GOD himself has been accused of being a hater and a liar
And has been done so under the guise of another image of what so many now think is GOD and even IS JESUS .
INTERFAITH IS OF ANTI CHRIST , and them false leaders have DENIED HIM and what HE SAID
about WHO IS OF GOD and WHO IS NOT OF GOD
by implying a lie that all religions are coming to GOD in they own way
and that the GOD of the christain is no better than the god of any others religon .
YOU know what i find so startling . THE MAN you go after , ST STEVEN
You two are so different on how you see the GOD HEAD . YET SO IDENTICAL WITH INTERFIATH .
I SEE THIS with conservatives and liberals . very different on politics BUT IDENTICAL on the false love lie .
I TOLD US ALL that is HOW SATAN IS GONNA UNITE YOU ALL . TRUMP and vance , when it comes to interfaith
DO AS DO THE LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE . You are all being decieved . big time . think about that for a bit .
ANd tis not me FALSELY ACCUSING JESUS , ITS INTERFIATH and all who love the LIE that accuse Him .

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm all for context friend-stay out of this, this is between me and @APAK.

J.

My friend is here . What i next ask is not on the subject, but that in and of itself is now the topic i bring up to all .
SO allow me to give a scenario and do feel free to answer what you would do in such a case .
What if you were invited to go to a town meeting
and at said meeting the topic was about Miss sally and her new bakery .
Now upon the entrance it said , we will not tolerate anyone who tries to change the subject .
THIS TOPIC , this meeting is about sally and her bakery .
SO its all good , you go into the meeting ready to hear all about miss salley .
SO the mayor of the town calls her up on stage . Man she is talking about all them lovely treats she makes .
people are asking her all kinds of questions about HOW she makes it , about the prices .
But suddenly YOU see smoke coming from the roof of that there building .
SO tell me , ARE YOU GONNA WARN and thus CHANGE THE TOPIC
or are you just gonna sit and tell yourself , NO i gotta stay on the topic .
FEEL FREE TO let me know what you would do .
NOW as for me , I AM GONNA WARN THEM PEOPLE , WE NEED TOGET OUT of this building .
INTERFIATH HAS TAKEN THEM CAPTIVE johann . I SEE MANY people I KNOW on this site
heading right into it , OR are already IN IT . DONT expect me not to warn . cause i know they all BURN in the end
and that we MUST get this people OUT Of any kind of influence it has brought .

 

[Johann]

My friend is here . What i next ask is not on the subject, but that in and of itself is now the topic i bring up to all .
SO allow me to give a scenario and do feel free to answer what you would do in such a case .
What if you were invited to go to a town meeting
and at said meeting the topic was about Miss sally and her new bakery .
Now upon the entrance it said , we will not tolerate anyone who tries to change the subject .
THIS TOPIC , this meeting is about sally and her bakery .
SO its all good , you go into the meeting ready to hear all about miss salley .
SO the mayor of the town calls her up on stage . Man she is talking about all them lovely treats she makes .
people are asking her all kinds of questions about HOW she makes it , about the prices .
But suddenly YOU see smoke coming from the roof of that there building .
SO tell me , ARE YOU GONNA WARN and thus CHANGE THE TOPIC
or are you just gonna sit and tell yourself , NO i gotta stay on the topic .
FEEL FREE TO let me know what you would do .
NOW as for me , I AM GONNA WARN THEM PEOPLE , WE NEED TOGET OUT of this building .
INTERFIATH HAS TAKEN THEM CAPTIVE johann . I SEE MANY people I KNOW on this site
heading right into it , OR are already IN IT . DONT expect me not to warn . cause i know they all BURN in the end
and that we MUST get this people OUT Of any kind of influence it has brought .

I believe most here are thoroughly aware of the consequences of not believing in Jesus Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit and WE need to work out OUR own salvation with fear and trembling.

Since I have known you, online, I have never see you post on salvation, the cross, Jesus crucified, Him resurrected and the Imperative to be sealed with the Spirit and walk in the Spirit and obedience to the commandments as written in Scripture.

Personally, I think you are taking this "rebuking" thing too far since there should be a healthy balance to be edified and edify others. Not compromising on what stands written and be approachable.

Just my opinion


Galatians 5:24
And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Colossians 3:5-10
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Galatians 5:13
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Colossians 3:1-3
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Matthew 5:28-30
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Related Scriptures


Romans 8:7-9
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Galatians 5:16-17
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

John 15:5
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Ephesians 4:1
I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,--

Preach on this and how it must be done @amigo de christo.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

I believe most here are thoroughly aware of the consequences of not believing in Jesus Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit and WE need to work out OUR own salvation with fear and trembling.

Since I have known you, online, I have never see you post on salvation, the cross, Jesus crucified, Him resurrected and the Imperative to be sealed with the Spirit and walk in the Spirit and obedience to the commandments as written in Scripture.

Personally, I think you are taking this "rebuking" thing too far since there should be a healthy balance to be edified and edify others. Not compromising on what stands written and be approachable.

Just my opinion


Galatians 5:24
And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Colossians 3:5-10
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Galatians 5:13
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Colossians 3:1-3
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Matthew 5:28-30
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Related Scriptures


Romans 8:7-9
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Galatians 5:16-17
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

John 15:5
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Ephesians 4:1
I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,--

Preach on this and how it must be done @amigo de christo.

J.

Rather odd you once told me how often i did preach ON JESUS THE CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED .
what has happend my friend . I often do talk of salvation . I mean i am constantly reminding of it . and reminding
NONE shall attain it lest one beleives JESUS is the Christ .

 

[Wrangler]

salvation . I mean i am constantly reminding of it . and reminding
NONE shall attain it lest one beleives JESUS is the Christ .

Indeed, all the Gospels make this point.

• Matthew 1:1 (VOICE) This is the family history, the genealogy, of Jesus the Anointed, the coming King.
• Mark 1:1 (VOICE). This is the beginning of the good news of Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, the Son of God.
• Luke 1:4 I want you to know that you can fully rely on the things you have been taught about Jesus, God’s Anointed One.
• John 20:31 (VOICE). These accounts are recorded so that you, too, might believe that Jesus is the Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of God, because believing grants you the life He came to share.

None of the Gospels claim Jesus is YHWH incarnate.

 

[RLT63]

Indeed, all the Gospels make this point.

• Matthew 1:1 (VOICE) This is the family history, the genealogy, of Jesus the Anointed, the coming King.
• Mark 1:1 (VOICE). This is the beginning of the good news of Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, the Son of God.
• Luke 1:4 I want you to know that you can fully rely on the things you have been taught about Jesus, God’s Anointed One.
• John 20:31 (VOICE). These accounts are recorded so that you, too, might believe that Jesus is the Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of God, because believing grants you the life He came to share.

None of the Gospels claim Jesus is YHWH incarnate.

Because he's not.
The Son is not the Father
The Son is not the Holy Spirit
The Father is not the Son
The Father is not the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is not the Father
The Holy Spirit is not the Son
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God

 

[Marvelloustime]

Rather odd you once told me how often i did preach ON JESUS THE CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED .
what has happend my friend . I often do talk of salvation . I mean i am constantly reminding of it . and reminding
NONE shall attain it lest one beleives JESUS is the Christ .

@amigo de christo

 

[Wrangler]

WHAT IF JESUS IS BEING FASLEY ACCUSED

I don't think calling someone God incarnate qualifies as an accusation. Come on now!

 

[APAK]

I was thinking along the same lines. Context kills trinitarianism.

It's its kryptonite, indeed, and those who adhere to its poison, who laid it as they please over scripture to please and massage their egos and their idols.

That's why folks like J., only understands scripture for the natural, carnal so-called scholarly level, if he can even do that, on a mental level from boastful men of this world, whom he honors and agrees with, as he says. I really want to know what he really agrees with and in whom.

 

[ProDeo]

Read Genesis and see that what happened was not in God’s original purpose for humankind.
What was God’s command to the humans after the creation of Eve?

Gen 1:26-28….
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

Have you ever wondered why in Gen 1 it's Elohim and in Gen-2 it's Yahweh who is speaking?

And secondly Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it while in Gen 2 the Earth is limited to what happened in the Garden, meaning it's not about the full Earth.

Gen 2:7-9…
”And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person. 8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.”

Gen 2:15-17…
“Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Here is the first mention of death…..and it was only as a penalty for disobedience.

Correct.

Consequently, if Adam had not sinned, he never would have died.
Their commission was to “fill the earth“ with their children and spread the boundaries of their paradise home “subduing“ it until the whole world resembled the garden of Eden.
After the fall….
Gen 3:22-24…
“Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

Yep, driven away from the presence of the Lord, out of Paradise landing on a hostile place (as we realize each day) where there is both good and evil and where death rules as a necessity, imagine a world without dying insects, within a couple of months the place would be one buzzing experience. A&E wanted (or better insisted) to know good and evil and actually God gave them exactly want they wanted, we can see that every day on the news. Earth is a perfect place to learn about good and evil. We better learn the lesson well.

Did you ever wonder why only A&E were offered the chance of a lifetime to escape from death and suffering? Why did not all of us get the same chance as A&E? Would I (you) do better than A&E with the knowledge we have? Questions, questions, questions...

You believe this was all planned? How can you not see the derailment? Free will was abused. Death was not part of the life that God had planned for his human children. Nor was the rebellion of his spirit son, who sought to take the humans away from the true God and to take his place. He desired their worship and plotted a way to obtain it. He didn’t care that it would cost them their lives, as long as he got what he wanted.

If they had not disobeyed, then living forever in paradise would have been theirs for the taking….”the tree of life” was there to guarantee that they kept living….with no death, no pain, no suffering…and no evil to spoil their idyllic existence. That was Plan A…..but once the humans had partaken of the fruit, then the death penalty was applied.
In sentencing Adam, God said…
”In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

A bit of Plato
The Cycle of Opposites

The first argument is based on the cyclical interchange by means of which every quality comes into being from its own opposite. Hot comes from cold and cold from hot: that is, hot things are just cold things that have warmed up, and cold things are just hot things that have cooled off. Similarly, people who are awake are just people who were asleep but then woke up, while people who are asleep are just people who were awake but then dozed off.

By analogy, if there is good the opposite must be also true and evil must exist. In the history of heaven (by the lack of a better description) there was a time that everything was good and none of the creatures God created -- with free will -- knew what that (exactly) meant, only God. Until on a (so to say) bad day a creature rebelled and wanted to overthrow God, evil was exposed, the first sin in the history of heaven and everything changed. I think (emphasis added) God knew that very well when He gave the creatures He created free will and that bad day would come sooner or later. Same with A&E.

Gen 3:22 - Then the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.

And in a strange way you can argue that knowing good and evil has the advantage we appreciate and love our God more than not knowing the difference. But maybe that's just nonsense.

Plan B, which was the provision of a savior, was implemented to get us back to Plan A. (Rev 21:2-4)

They had a choice to eat of the forbidden tree and suffer the consequences or not. What person in their right mind would choose death? Satan had to lie about the penalty in order to make the fruit attractive…..he lied to the woman to get to his real target….Adam. It was he who bore the blame for the fall, not the woman. (Rom 5:12; 1 Tim 2:14)

Not all translations add that last bit…”from the founding of the world”. But even then, what does this expression mean? If you look it up in the Greek, you will see that the “founding of the world” was not the planet but the founding of the world of mankind. Which began with Cain as the first human born from the now sinful Adam and his wife. A savior was needed to rescue their children, born from sinful parents, through no fault on their part. Jesus came to undo what Adam did to his children. If Adam had made a better choice, we would not be having this discussion…..

Amen Aunty.

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't think calling someone God incarnate qualifies as an accusation. Come on now!

Intefaith is of anti christ and it do call JESUS A LIAR . why support that abomination at all .