Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Wrangler]

Because he already declared it in the previous 3 verses

You got to be kidding me?! You claim his figurative prologue means God came incarnate - in contradiction of 1:45, Deut 18:15-18 - but is excluded from his literal purpose statement?

Trinitarian logic on display.

 

[RLT63]

You got to be kidding me?! You claim his figurative prologue means God came incarnate - in contradiction of 1:45, Deut 18:15-18 - but is excluded from his literal purpose statement?

Trinitarian logic on display.

Everything you want to dismiss you say is figurative. I have never heard that the Word was God is figurative. You’ve got to be kidding me.
And you like to label me a Trinitarian but I’m not sure I fit the traditional sense.

Jhn 1:45 - Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whomMoses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
I’m not seeing a contradiction

 

[Wrangler]

I have never heard that the Word was God is figurative.

Think. Words are not a different person from the person who speaks them.

Also, the entire Bible (written by Jewish Unitarians, who reject the trinity to this day), Gospel of John, chapter 1 and especially Deut 18:15-18 and 1:45 have to be looked at in perspective.

 

[RLT63]

Think. Words are not a different person from the person who speaks them.

Also, the entire Bible, Gospel of John, chapter 1 and especially Deut 18:15-18 and 1:45 have to be looked at in perspective.

Yeah, every denomination has their own perspective and can twist things to fit their beliefs. When that’s not sufficient they go down Greek word rabbit trails

 

[RLT63]

Yes, Thomas was indeed in awe of what God had done through Jesus as the direct manifestation of Yahweh Himself!
They understood their OT you see.
F2F

He understood who and what Jesus is.

 

[MonoBiblical]

@face2face Do you know any Greek?

 

[Wrangler]

He understood who and what Jesus is.

No answer to my 2nd question or how 1:45 proves Jesus was the literal expected prophet Moses told us about in Deut 18:15-18? Sad IDOLATRY. Sad intellectual dishonesty.

 

[RLT63]

No answer to my 2nd question or how 1:45 proves Jesus was the literal expected prophet Moses told us about in Deut 18:15-18? Sad IDOLATRY. Sad intellectual dishonesty.

Jesus was prophesied about, not seeing how this disproves the Trinity.
You believe what you believe and I’ll believe what I believe and I will pray that you are saved because you trust Jesus as your savior.
You can pray that I recover and can go back to work.
I won’t accuse you of idolatry or claim that you’re not a Christian

 

[face2face]

He understood who and what Jesus is.

Yes, the Son of Man who had been glorified by his God.

 

[face2face]

@face2face Do you know any Greek?

Yes I do, "souvlaki" comes from the Greek word "souvla," meaning "skewer."

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

Good post. Terrible conclusion. (assuming you are talking about the afterlife)

The Bible’s conclusion offends Unitarians who insist that God has to save everyone….he never says so.

The fact is, that the Bible does not teach about an afterlife….this is the life humans were meant to live but just not in sin, with death and suffering as a result.

God’s first purpose was derailed, and he could have snuffed out the rebels without a second thought…but he chose to allow them to see first hand where their rebellious ideas would take them. He is omniscient, so he knows the end from the beginning…..by allowing the devil to tempt the woman, and seeing the reaction of the man, he permitted human kind to make their choices and to “reap what they had sown”. If they couldn’t be told…they had to be shown….

He did not create mindless robots who had no self determination, but gave free will to all his children both in heaven and on earth. He warned them about abusing that privilege and what the consequences would be….certain death.

What is the one thing that God cannot give himself? Genuine heartfelt love and loyalty…..
This is why we have free will, and why our love and loyalty mean so much to him, freely given without coercion or threat…..all that was needed to stay happy and healthy was to obey the one who made us and follow his instructions. Don’t we do that even when we buy our appliances? We have a guarantee that if we follow the manufacturers instructions, we will enjoy the product free of worry.

Honestly. What sort of tyrannical god would concoct such a horrible plan for humankind?

He is not a tyrannical God at all, but he is dealing with a rebel who is very powerful…his adversary has challenged his position as Sovereign over mankind…saying that our autonomy is more important than our obedience. Was he right?

By allowing the devil to rule the world, God gets to see who can remain loyal out of genuine love for him, despite hardship, and who can be swayed by the devil’s deception in painting God as this tyrant you describe. Both humans and angels are getting tested out in this respect….so at the end of the day….all incorrigible rebels will be eliminated both in heaven and on earth, so that God’s purpose for his creation can go ahead, on into eternity uninterrupted…..never to be challenged again……legal precedents will be established so that no rebel will ever be able to make accusations against the Creator again, and he can then erase all the trauma from our memories….(Isa 65:17)

We will not remember the trials of this life, but we will get to enjoy the life we were meant to have in the beginning. Even the dead will be returned to life to learn about a God they never knew. (John 5:28-29)

I personally believe his approach to the rebellion was masterful…..the end more than justifies the means.

 

[RLT63]

The Bible’s conclusion offends Unitarians who insist that God has to save everyone….he never says so.

The fact is, that the Bible does not teach about an afterlife….this is the life humans were meant to live but just not in sin, with death and suffering as a result.

God’s first purpose was derailed, and he could have snuffed out the rebels without a second thought…but he chose to allow them to see first hand where their rebellious ideas would take them. He is omniscient, so he knows the end from the beginning…..by allowing the devil to tempt the woman, and seeing the reaction of the man, he permitted human kind to make their choices and to “reap what they had sown”. If they couldn’t be told…they had to be shown….

He did not create mindless robots who had no self determination, but gave free will to all his children both in heaven and on earth. He warned them about abusing that privilege and what the consequences would be….certain death.

What is the one thing that God cannot give himself? Genuine heartfelt love and loyalty…..
This is why we have free will, and why our love and loyalty mean so much to him, freely given without coercion or threat…..all that was needed to stay happy and healthy was to obey the one who made us and follow his instructions. Don’t we do that even when we buy our appliances? We have a guarantee that if we follow the manufacturers instructions, we will enjoy the product free of worry.

He is not a tyrannical God at all, but he is dealing with a rebel who is very powerful…his adversary has challenged his position as Sovereign over mankind…saying that our autonomy is more important than our obedience. Was he right?

By allowing the devil to rule the world, God gets to see who can remain loyal out of genuine love for him, despite hardship, and who can be swayed by the devil’s deception in painting God as this tyrant you describe. Both humans and angels are getting tested out in this respect….so at the end of the day….all incorrigible rebels will be eliminated both in heaven and on earth, so that God’s purpose for his creation can go ahead, on into eternity uninterrupted…..never to be challenged again……legal precedents will be established so that no rebel will ever be able to make accusations against the Creator again, and he can then erase all the trauma from our memories….(Isa 65:17)

We will not remember the trials of this life, but we will get to enjoy the life we were meant to have in the beginning. Even the dead will be returned to life to learn about a God they never knew. (John 5:28-29)

I personally believe his approach to the rebellion was masterful…..the end more than justifies the means.

Was God’s plan derailed?
Gen 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It didn’t say “If you eat of it” it says the day you eat of it you shall die.
Did God know what was going to happen? Surely he did.
Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names arenot written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[face2face]

Was God’s plan derailed?
Gen 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It didn’t say “If you eat of it” it says the day you eat of it you shall die.
Did God know what was going to happen? Surely he did.
Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names arenot written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the idea of a "Plan B," meaning that because sin entered the world, God had to come up with a way to redeem His people. What they don’t realize, however, is that the creation of the Lord Jesus Christ and his needful sacrifice was part of God’s first thought, even before creation itself began!

God always intended to have a Son— How would God attain such a Son?

"In the beginning..."

Yep!

 

[face2face]

Maybe they are made in the image of God, but you can’t show me where it says that in the Bible, so it’s just speculation.

Do you think that evidence would be unreasonable, considering they don't relate to our creation? It's our turn to join their family, not the other way around.

If you take the time to study the angels, it's a fascinating and profound topic. I've done a lot of work on it over the years, particularly on Gabriel!

Hebrews 12:22-23

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect."

BIG family!

 

[face2face]

@RLT63

What do you think this means?

Ephesians 1:10 (ESV): "as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."

What are the things in Heaven?

Ephesians 3:14-15 (ESV):
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named."

What can you take away from these two passages?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@RLT63

Daniel 7:10 "A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened."

A thousand thousands (a million!) ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand (100,000,000) stood before Him.

The court was seated, and the books were opened.

F2F

 

[face2face]

We can express the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (three “persons” in one God) as a set of propositions in this way:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

Redfan, but these numbers are quite alarming! What’s the deal with them? There’s nothing in the Bible that even remotely hints at anything like this!

For simplicity’s sake we need consider only 1 through 4 (for 5 through 7 will stand or fall on the same logical analysis we apply to 1 through 4):

1. There is only one God.

Correct - His name in the OT is Yahweh, however Jesus taught you to call him Abba Father!

2. The Father is God.

One and Only!

3. The Son is God.

Correct - created by the Word of His Mouth, from Logos and in Him became the Logos of Life! Jesus became the Word of Life through obedience!

4. The Father is not the Son.

The Father was manifested through the Son and by him we behold the Character of the Father.

The difficulty in defending the Trinity has always been that these four propositions are, as a group, logically inconsistent when analyzed from the standpoint of the three basic rules of logical equivalence: self-identity (everything is identical to itself, i.e., x = x); symmetry (if two things are equivalent, they are equivalent in any order, i.e., if x = y, then y = x); and transitivity (if one thing is the same as another and that other is the same as a third, then the first is the same as the third, i.e., if x = y and y = z then x = z). The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity fares ill in this analysis.

It doesn’t hold up well under any kind of analysis. You've been away for a while, and a lot of progress has already been made in dismantling this man-made instrument of darkness!

To make them logically consistent, it is tempting to sacrifice one of the four tenets – and most early heresies took this tack. Thus, Arius sacrificed the third one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
3′. Therefore the Son is not God.

and Sabellius sacrificed the fourth one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4′. Therefore the Father is the Son.

Both Arius’ argument and Sabellius’ argument are logically consistent because, unlike the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they satisfy all three of the aforementioned principles of logical consistency. Arius and Sabellius, although approaching the inconsistency from different perspectives, each preferred rationality to irrationality―even if it meant preferring heresy to orthodoxy.

Now, we Trinitarians have two choices. We can simply throw up our hands and declare that God does not have to play by the rules of logical consistency, thereby forever assigning the Trinity to the status of unfathomable mystery.

Unfathomable mystery is one of the evidences for it being the tradition of men! Knowledge which leads to the unknown is not of God!

Or, we can allow for identity and equivalence to be relative to their contexts. Thus, “Robert is good” can be consistent with “Robert is not good” as long as a different sense of “good” holds for each proposition (e.g., he is a good theologian; he is not a good golfer.)

I’m looking for Bible verses, not philosophical interpretations that stem from the early church fathers. Could you share those directly from Scripture?

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood. How to tease them apart is the ultimate challenge of orthodox Trinitarian theology.

You can't - the Person of God is manifested throughout both Testements and the character and person of the Lord Jesus Christ is subservient!

I.e. God does not appeal to God...a Son however who is reliant for all things, life, existence, spirit and word would!

Matthew 26:53 from the ESV:

"Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?"

Who want to take a deep dive with me here?

I’ve reached the end of this, and it feels like you haven’t left the springboard!

Let me help you Red.

We've already established in this thread that Christ was born into our nature and suffered in the flesh tainted by sin. We've also explored the benefits for those who are "in" Christ, including how the law of sin and death has been abolished through Him. This is why God desires all His children to come to Him by faith!

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Note: Christ himself is that New Creation! Firstborn...begotten...firstfruits!

Ephesians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places."

All blessing's are in Christ - the place of redemption because Christ himself was redeemed

Romans 8:1
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Reason being: God condemn sin in his flesh body when it was nailed to the tree! Those in Christ by faith have that condemnation removed!

Ephesians 2:10
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

As Christ is the workmanship of God so we are created in Christ for good works

1 Corinthians 1:30
"And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption."

Jesus Christ who crucified the flesh and all its passions has become to us wisdom....

Galatians 3:26
"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith."

John 14:20
"In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you."

This is the eternal Glory Jesus said he had with His Father from the Beginning! The irony for Trinitarians is we can say the same if we are found to be in Christ.

FINALLY

Galatians 5:24

"And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Jesus in crucifying the Flesh allowed God to condemn sin in the flesh which is the source of its power. Wages of sin is death!

Jesus had ONE nature and therefore cannot be God.

F2F

We have come a long way!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Was God’s plan derailed?

Read Genesis and see that what happened was not in God’s original purpose for humankind.
What was God’s command to the humans after the creation of Eve?

Gen 1:26-28….
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

Gen 2:7-9…
”And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person. 8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.”

Gen 2:15-17…
“Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Here is the first mention of death…..and it was only as a penalty for disobedience.
Consequently, if Adam had not sinned, he never would have died.
Their commission was to “fill the earth“ with their children and spread the boundaries of their paradise home “subduing“ it until the whole world resembled the garden of Eden.
After the fall….
Gen 3:22-24…
“Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

You believe this was all planned? How can you not see the derailment? Free will was abused. Death was not part of the life that God had planned for his human children. Nor was the rebellion of his spirit son, who sought to take the humans away from the true God and to take his place. He desired their worship and plotted a way to obtain it. He didn’t care that it would cost them their lives, as long as he got what he wanted.

If they had not disobeyed, then living forever in paradise would have been theirs for the taking….”the tree of life” was there to guarantee that they kept living….with no death, no pain, no suffering…and no evil to spoil their idyllic existence. That was Plan A…..but once the humans had partaken of the fruit, then the death penalty was applied.
In sentencing Adam, God said…
”In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Plan B, which was the provision of a savior, was implemented to get us back to Plan A. (Rev 21:2-4)

Gen 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It didn’t say “If you eat of it” it says the day you eat of it you shall die.
Did God know what was going to happen? Surely he did.

They had a choice to eat of the forbidden tree and suffer the consequences or not. What person in their right mind would choose death? Satan had to lie about the penalty in order to make the fruit attractive…..he lied to the woman to get to his real target….Adam. It was he who bore the blame for the fall, not the woman. (Rom 5:12; 1 Tim 2:14)

Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names arenot written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Not all translations add that last bit…”from the founding of the world”. But even then, what does this expression mean? If you look it up in the Greek, you will see that the “founding of the world” was not the planet but the founding of the world of mankind. Which began with Cain as the first human born from the now sinful Adam and his wife. A savior was needed to rescue their children, born from sinful parents, through no fault on their part. Jesus came to undo what Adam did to his children. If Adam had made a better choice, we would not be having this discussion…..

 

[RLT63]

Read Genesis and see that what happened was not in God’s original purpose for humankind.
What was God’s command to the humans after the creation of Eve?

Gen 1:26-28….
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

Gen 2:7-9…
”And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person. 8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.”

Gen 2:15-17…
“Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Here is the first mention of death…..and it was only as a penalty for disobedience.
Consequently, if Adam had not sinned, he never would have died.
Their commission was to “fill the earth“ with their children and spread the boundaries of their paradise home “subduing“ it until the whole world resembled the garden of Eden.
After the fall….
Gen 3:22-24…
“Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

You believe this was all planned? How can you not see the derailment? Free will was abused. Death was not part of the life that God had planned for his human children. Nor was the rebellion of his spirit son, who sought to take the humans away from the true God and to take his place. He desired their worship and plotted a way to obtain it. He didn’t care that it would cost them their lives, as long as he got what he wanted.

If they had not disobeyed, then living forever in paradise would have been theirs for the taking….”the tree of life” was there to guarantee that they kept living….with no death, no pain, no suffering…and no evil to spoil their idyllic existence. That was Plan A…..but once the humans had partaken of the fruit, then the death penalty was applied.
In sentencing Adam, God said…
”In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Plan B, which was the provision of a savior, was implemented to get us back to Plan A. (Rev 21:2-4)

They had a choice to eat of the forbidden tree and suffer the consequences or not. What person in their right mind would choose death? Satan had to lie about the penalty in order to make the fruit attractive…..he lied to the woman to get to his real target….Adam. It was he who bore the blame for the fall, not the woman. (Rom 5:12; 1 Tim 2:14)

Not all translations add that last bit…”from the founding of the world”. But even then, what does this expression mean? If you look it up in the Greek, you will see that the “founding of the world” was not the planet but the founding of the world of mankind. Which began with Cain as the first human born from the now sinful Adam and his wife. A savior was needed to rescue their children, born from sinful parents, through no fault on their part. Jesus came to undo what Adam did to his children. If Adam had made a better choice, we would not be having this discussion…..

Yeah, it's always a bad translation

 

[Johann]

The Greek word 'logos' (Λόγος) is a neuter noun FOR the ENGLISH language and usage - I wonder if you caught that point, which typically would be translated using a neuter pronoun such as “it” or “this” in English.

No need to be so facetious-


Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" (1996) addresses the use of pronouns for λόγος in contexts like John 1:1. He specifically discusses whether the pronoun αὐτός in John 1:2 (οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν) should be translated as "he," "it," or "this one." His commentary focuses on the theological and syntactical implications of this decision.

Wallace’s Key Observations:
Gender Agreement and Context:
Wallace emphasizes that αὐτός refers back to λόγος in John 1:1, which is grammatically masculine. Greek pronouns typically agree in gender and number with their antecedent. Therefore, αὐτός is masculine because λόγος is masculine. However, the choice of pronoun in English depends not just on grammatical gender but also on context and meaning.

"It" vs. "He" in Translation:
Wallace argues that in non-theological contexts, λόγος could be rendered "it" if the term simply refers to a concept like "word" or "speech." However, in John 1:1–2, λόγος is personified and explicitly identified as divine. Wallace states that the context—both literary and theological—makes "he" the only appropriate English pronoun. Translating it as "it" would obscure the Johannine intent to present the λόγος as a person, specifically the preexistent Christ.

Definite Personal Identity of the Λόγος:
Wallace points out that οὗτος ("this one") in John 1:2 reinforces the personal nature of λόγος. The shift from the generic λόγος as "word" or "reason" to a personal identity is a deliberate theological move by the author of John. Wallace highlights that this personification culminates in John 1:14 (ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο, "the Word became flesh"), where the λόγος is undeniably a person, Jesus Christ.

Translational Implications:
Translating αὐτός or οὗτος as "it" in John 1:1–2, Wallace notes, would lead to significant theological distortion. The personal pronoun "he" must be used to maintain the intent of the text to depict the λόγος as a divine person in relationship with God (i.e., the Father).

Conclusion (Based on Wallace):
Wallace would firmly reject translating λόγος with "it" in John 1:1–2 or related passages because the context clearly presents λόγος as a person (Christ). He emphasizes that while λόγος could theoretically be treated as an abstract concept in other settings, the prologue of John demands the personal pronoun "he." For Wallace, the combination of grammar, syntax, and theology strongly supports this interpretation.

"was" (thrice) This is an imperfect tense (cf. Joh_1:1-2; Joh_1:4; Joh_1:10) which focuses on continual existence in past time. This tense is used to show the Logos' pre-existence (cf. Joh_8:57-58; Joh_17:5; Joh_17:24; 2Co_8:9; Col_1:17; Heb_10:5-7). It is contrasted with the aorist tensesof Joh_1:3; Joh_1:6; Joh_1:14.

"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom."

John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message.

You may "slice N' dice" any which way you want @APAK -the Logos is a Person, not a concept in the mind of YHWH-and that Person is none other that Jesus Christ.

J.