Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

Such a statement can only come from someone who has run out of points to make. Your theology has been exposed repeatedly, and this is the only response you have left.

My Christ can save me from the Law of Sin and Death.

Yours cannot!

You should, in humility, acknowledge this, repent of the false beliefs you hold, and seek to be found "in" the true Lord and Christ.

F2F

The truth will remain, even if falsehood attempts to cloud it. My Christ is the Savior who sets free, and no amount of slander can alter that reality. May you come to recognize the truth, humble yourself, and turn toward the true source of life.

J.

 

[face2face]

I doubt he’ll concede anything - too prideful.

The Trinitarian influence runs deep in Johann, and his confidence is placed not in the revealed work of God, but in his numerous commentaries and the writings of church fathers.

He is an example of the defiant Christian in the last days, one who will persecute rather than praise the one who alone has the right to open the scroll! Having overcome Sin's Flesh and sat down with the Father on High.

In Revelation 5:12 "In a loud voice they were saying: 'Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!'"

Take strenght from the knowledge you know what made the Master worthy! You know his weaknesses and how they are shared! You undestand the Victory he allowed his Father to have in him and how that pleased Him!

For now, it is enough to expose the lies. When the Lord comes, further action will be taken to cleanse this earth of its defilement and its people.

F2F

 

[APAK]

i was hoping you would make such a comment, as such it is an answer to prayer.

When the FATHER called me unto Christ, HE showed me the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.
Therefore, i emptied myself at His Feet as nothing in me was worthy of His Glory.
This delighted the LORD and HE prayed to the FATHER on my behalf.
The FATHER sent the Holy Spirit to fill me UP with His Truth and Joy and Peace.

JESUS emptied Himself so that we could be brought near to the FATHER and receive His Mercy.

Therefore, i HIGHLY recommend that you follow the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE and empty yourself
at the Feet of the Lord Jesus Christ that you also may be forgiven and Filled with the Righteousness of God.

But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord,
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish,
that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

The thing is David, Jesus had NO divine so-called power to start off with, according to scripture. As similar to you, he also resigned his will over to God to serve him, and without any creedal-derived divine power.

 

[APAK]

The irony is per Deut 18:15-18, YHWH selected a man among the people of Israel so they could have a better relationship with their God without being terrified of being in his overwhelming presence.

In response to this loving, level setting action, Trinitarians put this God chosen mediator back on an unreachable pedestal, undoing the purpose of the New Covenant, us going through this man among the Israeli people mediator for our benefit, to only be able to go directly to a terrifying God.

Excellent...then the Trinis don't get our crucial mediator. Good luck with their sins, prayers and even their salvation. An impossible proposition. The Christ has to be a human being as our mediator and High Priest. A divine one makes no lick of sense.

 

[face2face]

The truth will remain,

It has been presented to you in a way I have never done for anyone else in a forum, yet it still fails to break through your mental resistance.

even if falsehood attempts to cloud it.

Which is the reason you cannot receive how to be "in" Christ!

My Christ is the Savior who sets free,

No, he is a creation of many men's imaginations, designed to craft a god-man that satisfied their intellectual speculations and nothing more.

and no amount of slander can alter that reality.

What you see as slander is really a gentle rebuke of "another gospel!" which you cannot let go!

May you come to recognize the truth, humble yourself, and turn toward the true source of life.

J.

When the Master comes, Johann, and by his grace and mercy, you are given the opportunity to witness the truth of him, I hope you remember that you failed to come to a saving knowledge of the one true Christ.

I will take no joy in this, Johann, only pity that you missed him and the work God did in condemning what holds you bound to the grave!

F2F

 

[face2face]

The LORD Jesus Christ defined such comments as yours by including you in with the monotheistic atheists.

Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

It's not entirely your fault, but it is your responsibility to break free from the mess you inherited. All I've done is shine a bright light on the false christ and compared him to the Real One!

 

[David in NJ]

The thing is David, Jesus had NO divine so-called power to start off with, according to scripture. As similar to you, he also resigned his will over to God to serve him, and without any creedal-derived divine power.

Hello APAK

You are 100% Correct on this = HE resigned HIS will to the will of HIS FATHER.

Let's LOOK together - John 5:16-23

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Now that we read this together - what is the FATHER'S Will for us???

 

[Johann]

The thing is David, Jesus had NO divine so-called power to start off with, according to scripture.

Error.

Jesus' Divinity Is Asserted in Scripture
John 1:1-3 (LXX): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made."

Analysis: This passage affirms the eternal divinity of Jesus (the "Word," or Logos), stating that He is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. This divine nature is inseparable from Jesus’ identity. He is not a created being but is the Creator through whom all things came into existence. If Jesus were devoid of divine power, He would not have been able to create the universe.

John 8:58: Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am."

Analysis: Jesus’ statement "I am" echoes the divine name revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14 ("I AM WHO I AM"), identifying Himself with the eternal, self-existent God. This assertion of preexistence and divinity is a clear claim to divine power and authority.

Philippians 2:6-7 (Textus Receptus): "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

Analysis: Here, Paul describes the pre-incarnate Christ as "being in the form of God" and "equal with God." While Jesus humbled Himself by taking on human form, He did not lose His divine nature or power.
His incarnation does not negate His divine power but rather demonstrates how He voluntarily limited the outward expression of that power to fully identify with humanity.

2. Jesus’ Divine Power During His Earthly Ministry
Matthew 28:18: "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Analysis: After His resurrection, Jesus declares that "all power" in heaven and on earth has been given to Him. This statement affirms His divine authority over all creation. Even during His earthly ministry, Jesus exercised divine power (e.g., healing, raising the dead, controlling nature, forgiving sins). His power was not absent but was exercised according to the will of the Father.

John 5:19: "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

Analysis: Here, Jesus emphasizes His perfect unity with the Father and the submission of His will to the Father’s. While He does not act independently of the Father, He still possesses divine power to perform the works of God. Jesus’ power is not external to His nature but flows from His relationship with the Father, demonstrating His divine authority and omnipotence.

Luke 4:36: "And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out."

Analysis: Jesus' authority over demons, nature, and sickness is evidence of His divine power. The people were amazed because Jesus' power was unique, a divine power that only God could wield.

3. The Incarnation Did Not Mean a Loss of Divinity

Colossians 2:9 (Textus Receptus): "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

Analysis: In this passage, Paul affirms that the fullness of the divine nature (the "Godhead") dwelt in Jesus bodily. This confirms that Jesus retained His divine nature and power, even in human form.

The incarnation did not strip Him of His deity or divine power but rather was a demonstration of how He chose to live among humanity while fully retaining His divine essence.

Hebrews 1:3: "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power..."

Analysis: The author of Hebrews describes Jesus as the "express image" of the Father’s person and states that He upholds all things by the "word of His power." This highlights the ongoing divine power of Jesus, even while He lived as a man. It suggests that His divine power was not diminished in His humanity but was continually exercised in sustaining the universe.

4. Jesus' Miracles and Power Were Acts of Divine Authority

Matthew 14:19-21: Jesus miraculously fed five thousand men with five loaves of bread and two fish.

John 11:43-44: Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, demonstrating His authority over life and death.

Analysis: These miracles, along with many others, demonstrate that Jesus exercised divine power over nature, sickness, and death. The source of this power is His divine nature, as He is fully God and fully man. His miracles were not just acts of compassion but demonstrations of His divine authority and the power He possesses as the Son of God.

Conclusion
The claim that "Jesus had no divine so-called power to start off with" contradicts the overwhelming testimony of Scripture regarding the divinity of Christ and His possession of divine power both before and during His earthly ministry.

While Jesus did voluntarily limit the outward display of His divine power during His incarnation (as seen in Philippians 2:7), He retained His full deity, and His miraculous works were direct expressions of His divine nature. Therefore, this claim is not biblically accurate and overlooks key truths about the nature of Christ as both fully God and fully man.

And the falsehoods just keep piling up!

J.

 

[face2face]

Excellent...then the Trinis don't get our crucial mediator. Good luck with their sins, prayers and even their salvation. An impossible proposition. The Christ has to be a human being as our mediator and High Priest. A divine one makes no lick of sense.

Precisely, the Man Christ Jesus, we have introduced him to all the Trinitarians here in this forum and for the moment it appears this will happen again!

"He came to his own, and his own people did not receive Him." (John 1:11)

There is a great irony in that!

F2F

 

[Johann]

The Trinitarian influence runs deep in Johann, and his confidence is placed not in the revealed work of God, but in his numerous commentaries and the writings of church fathers.

For the readers--
The hypostatic union
The phrase “hypostatic union” is a useful shorthand to express the truth that Jesus is one person with two natures. Jesus is the eternal Son who has taken to himself a truly human nature.

The word “hypostatic” refers to the “hypostasis”—or subsistence, i.e., distinct mode or manner of being (more commonly, “person”) of the Son. “Union,” in the phrase “hypostatic union,” refers to the union of these two natures—divine and human—in the person (hypostasis) of the Son. Jesus, therefore, possesses a truly divine nature and a truly human nature.

You cannot understand what the incarnation means without this hypostatic union. The angel Gabriel told Mary, “Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus” (Luke 1:31 ESVOpen in Logos Bible Software (if available)). The Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus had genuine human flesh. Mary gave birth to her son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger (2:7). And over time, Jesus grew (2:40, 52). He moved from infancy to childhood to adolescence to adulthood.

A Bible reader may sense the mystery in these affirmations. The truths and features of Jesus’s deity and humanity transcend our full comprehension. Yet the reality of mystery is what we should expect when we contemplate the wonders of the Word who was with God and was God and became flesh.

4 heresies the hypostatic union corrects
When we teach about the incarnation of Christ, a useful track for teachers and listeners to pursue is what the incarnation does mean and what it doesn’t mean.

1. Docetism
The hypostatic union reminds us that Jesus did not just seem to be human. The heresy of docetism taught that Jesus did not bear a genuine physicality; he only appeared to be incarnate. Biblical Christianity, however, insists upon the substance, not merely the semblance, of his humanity.

2. Nestorianism
The hypostatic union also reminds us that Jesus’s human nature did not involve an additional person. This point is crucial to avoid the heresy of Nestorianism, which teaches that Jesus is a divine person and a human person. According to Scripture, Jesus is the person of the Son, and because of the incarnation, this one person possesses truly divine and truly human natures.

3. Adoptionism
The hypostatic union reminds us that Jesus’s deity did not begin at some later point in time. We must avoid the heresy of adoptionism, which teaches that the Son’s deity was granted during his earthly life and thus that his humanity preexisted his deity. The Son’s deity was not something he lacked and needed to receive.

4. Arianism
The hypostatic union also reminds us that the Son was—and is—eternal. This truth helps us to avoid the heresy of Arianism, which says that God created the Son. According to Scripture, the Son is not a creature whom God made, but God himself, the Creator.

In contrast to these errors, consider the various truths in John 1. According to the biblical author, the Son is the Word which preceded all created things (John 1:1–3 and thus the Son was not something that was made. The Son exists as God and is coeternal with the Father (1:1–2, 14, 18). The person of the Son—this eternal Word—takes to himself a truly human nature and becomes flesh (1:14). The glory of the incarnation refers to the wonder of the hypostatic union.


Launch your study of doctrines like the hypostatic union using Logos’s Factbook.

All attributes secure
When people are learning about the incarnation, sometimes they assume that Jesus’s humanity had an effect on his deity.

One common way of expressing this error might be: “At the incarnation, Jesus set aside his divine attributes.” Such an idea probably has in mind the fact that Jesus was born, grew, asked questions, occupied one place at a time, could become tired, could suffer, and could die. These realities don’t sound like deity. They sound like humanity.

Those who believe Jesus set aside divine attributes might be basing this idea on a particular reading of Philippians 2. In Philippians 2:7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), Paul says that Jesus “emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (ESV). That statement can be easily misunderstood. An interpreter might imply something that Paul didn’t say, such as: Jesus “emptied himself of his divine attributes, by taking the form of a servant.” This error is known as kenoticism.

When Paul said Jesus “emptied himself,” the subsequent phrases in Philippians 2:7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) clarify what this “emptying” means: Jesus took the form of a servant and shared our humanity (“born in the likeness of men”). Paul doesn’t say that Jesus set aside, or turned off (like switches), his divine attributes. In fact, a proper understanding of the hypostatic union requires that we acknowledge all divine attributes to be intact and accounted for.

Jesus’s deity was not undermined or diluted in any way by the incarnation.

There are disastrous implications to the notion that Jesus emptied his divine attributes at the incarnation. If Jesus did so, then his deity is compromised, diminished, even denied. If Jesus sets aside divine attributes, in what sense could we say he still possessed a divine nature? Setting aside divine attributes would be setting aside what it means to be God. But God can never cease to be what he is. God is his attributes.

Believers should want to affirm, and insist on, the unchanging divine nature of Jesus.

The doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches, therefore, that Jesus’s deity was not undermined or diluted in any way by the incarnation. According to his deity, the Son remained omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

How to Teach the Hypostatic Union: 2 Natures, 1 Person, 0 Heresies

Discover the wonder of the hypostatic union, the doctrine that Jesus is fully God and fully man. Learn how this truth guards sound doctrine and avoids heresies.

www.logos.com

J.

 

[Wrangler]

The Christ has to be a human being as our mediator and High Priest. A divine one makes no lick of sense.

Exactly right!

I’ve said it many times. A man being obedient to YHWH to the point of death for the purposes of taking away the sins of the world THEN be resurrected, fulfilling prophecy AND proof of our inheritance is ripe with the most profound theological significance.

By contrast, God appearing in the form of a man, appearing to die but not has no theological significance at all.

How can trinitarians NOT see this?!

 

[face2face]

Exactly right!

I’ve said it many times. A man being obedient to YHWH to the point of death for the purposes of taking away the sins of the world THEN be resurrected, fulfilling prophecy AND proof of our inheritance is ripe with the most profound theological significance.

By contrast, God appearing in the form of a man, appearing to die but not has no theological significance at all.

How can trinitarians NOT see this?!

Because of Johann's previous post!

The invention of Dualism was necessary to transform Christ into something he was not. They have continued to add to this belief until there is nothing left of the original, authentic Christ.

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

Excellent...then the Trinis don't get our crucial mediator. Good luck with their sins, prayers and even their salvation. An impossible proposition. The Christ has to be a human being as our mediator and High Priest. A divine one makes no lick of sense.

The Christ has to be a human being as our mediator and High Priest. A divine one makes no lick of sense.

How can a human be the Measure and Grantor of Eternal LIFE???

 

[Johann]

How can a human be the Measure and Grantor of Eternal LIFE???

There's a radical departure from core doctrines and the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ from these three @David in NJ.

J.

 

[face2face]

The irony is per Deut 18:15-18, YHWH selected a man among the people of Israel so they could have a better relationship with their God without being terrified of being in his overwhelming presence.

In response to this loving, level setting action, Trinitarians put this God chosen mediator back on an unreachable pedestal, undoing the purpose of the New Covenant, us going through this man among the Israeli people mediator for our benefit, to only be able to go directly to a terrifying God.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19, with the promise of a prophet like Moses to whom the people will listen, carries with it a sense of joyful anticipation and hope. It points to the arrival of the one who would confirm Yahweh’s covenant of grace through his own blood. This prophet would first redeem a people for eternal life, eventually reestablish the nation in the land under immortal leaders, and bring about unity in himself (Jer. 3:15; 31:31-40).

How can a human be the Measure and Grantor of Eternal LIFE???

"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12, ESV)

God placed it there!

"In His Son" what did God achieve "in" Christ? you keep reading the same lesson a thousand different ways but you stil reject?

F2F

 

[face2face]

There's a radical departure from core doctrines and the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ from these three @David in NJ.

J.

The radical shift began during the time of the Apostles. What resides in your mind today is the result of thousands of individuals over time who have shaped and constructed an entirely different gospel.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Deuteronomy 18:15-19, with the promise of a prophet like Moses to whom the people will listen, carries with it a sense of joyful anticipation and hope. It points to the arrival of the one who would confirm Yahweh’s covenant of grace through his own blood. This prophet would first redeem a people for eternal life, eventually reestablish the nation in the land under immortal leaders, and bring about unity in himself (Jer. 3:15; 31:31-40).

"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12, ESV)

God placed it there!

"In His Son" what did God achieve "in" Christ? you keep reading the same lesson a thousand different ways but you stil reject?

F2F

English Standard Version (Biblia.com)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

biblia.com

J.

 

[face2face]

English Standard Version (Biblia.com)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

biblia.com

J.

Are you starting to see all that God did "in" His Son? Or are you still trying to change him?

 

[face2face]

If like Johann you start with the belief that Jesus is God, then what must follow?

The vexing problem is reduced to the simple question whether God could sin; for Jesus Christ is God. If it be admitted that God cannot—not merely would not—sin, it must be conceded that Christ could not—not merely would not—sin. Mr Trinny

The same applies to everything revealed in the Bible: if your starting point is incorrect, the outcome of your faith will be flawed.

@Johann cannot offer the necessary theological framework for Hypostasis because it is an erroreous teaching that is x-times removed from the original fallacy of claiming Jesus is God.

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

There's a radical departure from core doctrines and the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ from these three @David in NJ.

J.

"some shall depart from the faith...."

2 Chronichles 13:10
“As for us, the LORD is our God, and we have not forsaken him."

Micah 4:5
For all people walk each in the name of his god, But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God Forever and ever.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist.
And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

How can a mere human hold together all the atoms in the Universe as well as all of Creation?

Unless HE is ELOHIM of Genesis = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Deuteronomy 18:15-19, with the promise of a prophet like Moses to whom the people will listen, carries with it a sense of joyful anticipation and hope. It points to the arrival of the one who would confirm Yahweh’s covenant of grace through his own blood. This prophet would first redeem a people for eternal life, eventually reestablish the nation in the land under immortal leaders, and bring about unity in himself (Jer. 3:15; 31:31-40).

"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12, ESV)

God placed it there!

"In His Son" what did God achieve "in" Christ? you keep reading the same lesson a thousand different ways but you stil reject?

F2F

Great Scripture of Truth

You never answered the question: How can a human be the Grantor of Eternal LIFE

The Lord Says: "I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another" = Isaiah 42:8

God says: "I will not give My glory to another." = Isaiah 48:11

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

@APAK @Wrangler - Did God lie???