Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Ritajanice]

In my divorce, I learned there are 3 non-substitutable foundations for ANY positive, healthy relationship:

1. Integrity
2. Respect
3. Responsibility

The virtue of integrity leads to the emotion of trust. I'm not sure why but some people think they have veto power on having to respect another if they "don't understand" the boundary the other person draws.

Complicated, for me coming from an emotionally abusive family...Praise God I understand all of that now.imo.

My ex-wife was most guilty of lacking emotional responsibility. She kept trying to get me to take responsibility for how she felt. It was a manipulative tactic. She just could not take responsibility for how her actions hurt the relationship. She dismissed accountability on the grounds that she "was emotional." Near the end, I told her that having emotions is not a "get out of jail free card" in acting with impunity. She was horrified.

Understand.

Getting back to faith in relationships, my father was amazed that I instantly understood the dynamic with my sister and his right to set boundaries was not being respected. "Not understanding" is a ploy to attempt to get away with not living up to your responsibilities in the relationship.

Agreed.

It's that way with God. He does not provide full knowledge to us. We are not expected by him to take the next step only on the condition that we understand.

I don’t agree here, I’ve taken leaps of faith and just trusted the prompting of the Spirit,,having no understanding of what I’m about to let myself in for..

God has always taken the lead in that situation and spoken through me to another...now, wether they were listening or not is another matter, I did what I believe I was asked to do by God..then automatically I knew when to stop and walk away.that’s my take on faith.

My faith got me through taking medication pills that I was on before..I believe they set my AF in motion, the doctor said they didn’t, so I’ve had to start taking them again, I’m trusting and putting my faith in God for the outcome..that they don’t set my AF off again....we step out in faith without understanding, that is my belief...faith needs to be exercised...if I had to understand everything God was doing in my life...which could take forever...I’d never step out in faith...

Faith in God is a wonderful thing...such a precious gift..

Rather, he expects us to take that next step because we trust him. I've said this to my current wife. When I yell "Duck!" don't stubbornly stand there and demand a full explanation. Act. Now. Or there will be negative consequences. Faith based relationships are so much better!

Yes, I trusted him , walking in faith is different for each one of us I believe..plus we are all at different levels of faith.

 

[Ritajanice]

Because I asked first. I don't know where this lack of humility is coming from but I'll bow out of this now.

I can’t see where I’m lacking humility, I answered, you seem to think I didn’t, I can’t give you anymore than my honest answer,so I too will bow out.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I never said that you didn't claim that.

Why did you disagree with me then?

And, you said the reason why Jesus instructed His apostles to "baptize in the name (authority) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" is because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each other in what They teach.

I said more than that. But perhaps I wasn't clear. I want to clarify that I previously asked you to keep in mind the context of our conversation, which revolves around the doctrine of the Trinity. This central theme is the foundation for all our discussions and should guide our exchanges. It appears that my request may not have been fully understood, leading to some confusion. Given the limitations of this format for nuanced discussions, it's no surprise that miscommunication may occur. I appreciate your patience as we navigate this complex topic together.

Let me mention another passage that may help clarify things. This short section is the opening thesis statement of Paul's defense against those who maintain that Jesus was not qualified to be Christ because he was a man. They claimed that Christ would be an angel or as theophany instead.

Hebrews 1:1-3 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

I observe that the Apostle has concentrated on these last days, during which God chose to speak to us through His Son. Paul emphasizes that Jesus is a human being, not merely a cosmic second person of a Trinity. As a human, He conveyed God's message to us, not only by what he said but also by what he did and who he was -- the exact representation of God. Whereas Trinitarians claim that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are numerically one, Paul asserts instead, that the Father and the Son are representationally the same, not numerically the same.

I wasn't asking because I don't already know the answer.

I appreciate your strategy, but in my experience online, this strategy is fruitless and often misunderstood. I now simply make statements and ask questions only when I don't know the answer.

I'm asking to know Who or what you think the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is?

I can tell you but I'm not sure you would understand the answer. Do you know about transcendence?

 

[Magdala]

Why did you disagree with me then?

About what?

I said more than that. But perhaps I wasn't clear. I want to clarify that I previously asked you to keep in mind the context of our conversation, which revolves around the doctrine of the Trinity.

And, I've been addressing your recent statement that the reason why Jesus instructed His apostles to "baptize in the name (authority) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" isn't because the three are God, but rather because the three don't contradict each Other in what They teach, and they don't, but the teachings of John, incomplete or not, didn't contradict the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit either, yet Jesus didn't instruct the apostles to baptize in his name as well. Therefore, Jesus didn't say "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" for the reason that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each Other. Therefore, you still need to find the real reason for why Jesus instructed His apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I'm helping you do that by first prompting you to share your understanding of who or what the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is below:

I can tell you but I'm not sure you would understand the answer.

First, you don't need a guarantee that I will understand your answer in order for you to answer, and it can't be given anyway. Second, using me as an excuse to not answer tells me that you don't seem to know how at this time. Therefore, you need to pause your discussions with trinitarians and figure that out, because how can you make arguments around who or what you think the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not without being able to say who or what They are?

Do you know about transcendence?

You said, "I now simply make statements and ask questions only when I don't know the answer", so are you asking me if I know about transcendence to see if I can explain it to you?

This short section is the opening thesis statement of Paul's defense against those who maintain that Jesus was not qualified to be Christ because he was a man. They claimed that Christ would be an angel or as theophany instead.

Hebrews 1:1-3 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

I observe that the Apostle has concentrated on these last days, during which God chose to speak to us through His Son. Paul emphasizes that Jesus is a human being, not merely a cosmic second person of a Trinity. As a human, He conveyed God's message to us, not only by what he said but also by what he did and who he was -- the exact representation of God. Whereas Trinitarians claim that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are numerically one, Paul asserts instead, that the Father and the Son are representationally the same, not numerically the same.

Jesus is the Word (God) that became human (Jn. 1:1;14), which indicates that the Word wasn't human prior to becoming so. And, you cite a verse from Scripture that shows He is God Incarnate and you don't even realize it. Other humans, including angels, have conveyed God's message as well, but none of them did what the Word (Jesus) did. Do you know why the Messiah had to be the Word Incarnate and not a naturally born human or an angel? And, you won't be able to provide an answer unless you're able to explain who or what you think the Word and the Holy Spirit is.

 

[Keiw]

FALSE

Elohim in Hebrew is PLURAL = even the chabad rabbis know Elohim and Elohenu is PLURAL

Mislead trinitarians say its plural. Hebrews say it is not. Guess which one knows the language better?
It can be plural, but it NEVER is for the true God in Hebrew.

 

[Keiw]

Biblical Verses That Call Jesus God

In this post, I am going to cite some of the biblical texts that apply the term God to Jesus.

The prophet Isaiah announced that a virgin would conceive and give birth to a Son who would be called Immanuel:

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:14

The Apostle Matthew provides an inspired commentary and the application of this prophecy and the meaning of the name:

“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us (meth’ hemon HO Theos [THE God]).” Matthew 1:18-23

The foregoing explains the reason why the virgin-born Son is called Immanuel, e.g., Christ happens to be the very God of heaven who came down to be born as a man in order to save his people from their sins.

Matthew reinforces this point of Jesus’ being God in the flesh by concluding his Gospel in the same manner in which he began it, namely, he cites the risen Christ’s promise to continue to be with his people till the end of the age:

“Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway (ego meth’ hymon eimi), even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:16-20

This helps us appreciate why Isaiah would go on to proclaim that the Messiah is the Mighty God himself coming to be born as a human Child in order to rule on David’s throne forever:

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (El Gibbor), The everlasting Father,The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.” Isaiah 9:6-7

The significance and magnificence of this name can be seen by the fact that the prophet identifies Jehovah as the Mighty God in the very next chapter!

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God (El Gibbor).” Isaiah 10:20-21

That even Jewish sources believed that the Child appointed to rule on David’s throne was the Messiah can be seen from the Aramaic paraphrase of Isaiah known as the Targum:

“The prophet said to the house of David, For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and He has taken the law upon Himself to keep it. His name is called from eternity, Wonderful, The Mighty God who liveth to eternity, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days. The greatness of those who do the law shall be magnified, and to those, that preserve peace. There shall be no end to the throne of David, and of his kingdom, to establish it and build it in judgment and in righteousness from henceforth, even for ever. By the Word of the Lord of hosts this shall be done.” (The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah by Jonathan b. Uzziel, translated by Rev. C. W. H. Pauli, Presbyter. London: London Society’s House, 16, Lincoln’s Inn Fields, 1871], pp. 30-31 The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah bold and underline emphasis mine)

Continue-

When is Jesus called Immanuel?
Yes his -name- is called those things.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm helping you do that by first prompting you to share your understanding of who or what the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is below:

I don't need your help.

 

[David in NJ]

Mislead trinitarians say its plural. Hebrews say it is not. Guess which one knows the language better?
It can be plural, but it NEVER is for the true God in Hebrew.

Hebrew says Elohim is PLURAL

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

 

[face2face]

Your claim that Jesus was unable to enter the Holy Place or Holy of Holies during His "probation" misrepresents the biblical teaching.

Jesus, as the eternal High Priest, entered the true Holy of Holies in heaven by His own blood, fulfilling and surpassing the typology of the earthly sanctuary.

There is no scriptural basis for suggesting that Jesus was in any way limited or on probation regarding His priestly role or access to the presence of God.

Friend, I must step away from this discussion-there are some deeply misguided and heretical ideas being presented here, and I choose not to engage further in them.

J.

Okay, so I had hoped with your Bible in hand it was apparently clear.

Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and NOT a Leviticial Priest. For Jesus to go in would have broken the Law which he was born under!

"And you shall appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall guard their priesthood. But if any outsider comes near, he shall be put to death." (Numbers 3:10, ESV)

In 1 Chronicles 23:13, it also specifies that only the sons of Aaron, from the tribe of Levi, could serve as priests:

"The sons of Amram: Aaron and Moses. Aaron was set apart to consecrate the most holy things, he and his sons forever, to burn incense before the Lord, to minister to him and to bless in his name forever." (1 Chronicles 23:13, ESV)

The heretical things belong to you Johann because you know not the Word or the Christ.

I could go on to show you his Priesthood and how those in him will become Kings and Priests in the Kingdom Age but it's clear you would rather withdraw into the darnkess of the night.

F2F

 

[TheHC]

You need to start eulogizing Messiah-

προσκυνέω (proskynéō)
This is the primary Greek verb used to denote worship or reverence. It appears repeatedly in contexts where Jesus is honored or worshiped as divine.

Matthew 2:11: "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ)."

Matthew 8:2: "And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him (προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ), saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."

Matthew 14:33: "Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ), saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9: "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ)."

Matthew 28:17: "And when they saw him, they worshiped him (προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ): but some doubted."

Luke 24:52: "And they worshiped him (προσκυνήσαντες αὐτόν), and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."

John 9:38: "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him (προσεκύνησεν αὐτῷ)."

Revelation 5:14: "And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshiped (προσεκύνησαν) him that liveth for ever and ever."

2. δόξα (doxa) – Glory or honor
While not strictly "worship," this word is often used in contexts where Jesus is glorified, reflecting divine reverence.

John 17:5: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me (δόξασόν με) with thine own self with the glory (τῇ δόξῃ) which I had with thee before the world was."

Hebrews 1:6: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (προσκυνήσατωσαν αὐτῷ)."

3. ὁμολογέω (homologéō) – Confess or acknowledge
Used to express the act of confessing or acknowledging Jesus’ divine authority.

Philippians 2:10-11: "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (κάμψῃ), of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess (ἐξομολογήσηται) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

4. εὐλογέω (eulogéō) – Bless or praise
Though more commonly used of God the Father, Jesus also receives eulogéō in contexts implying divine reverence.

Luke 24:51-53: "And they worshiped him (προσκυνήσαντες αὐτόν), and returned to Jerusalem with great And were continually in the temple, praising (εὐλογοῦντες) and blessing God."

5. ἄξιος (axios) – Worthy
This word appears in contexts where Jesus is declared worthy of worship.

Revelation 5:12: "Saying with a loud voice, Worthy (ἄξιος) is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing."

These terms and their respective contexts emphasize the worship, reverence, and divine acknowledgment Jesus receives throughout the New Testament.

Your goading aside, believe what stands written.

J.

Hello, hope you are having a good day.

In the LXX (Greek Septuagint), “proskyneo” is used at Genesis 23:7, describing Abraham bowing down to the sons of Heth.

Do you think Abraham was “worshipping” them, or just showing them honor?

These NT Scriptures you quoted, where Jews were “proskyneo” toward Jesus…. If they were really worshipping Jesus, they would have been charged with blasphemy & killed!

These Jews were simply honoring Jesus.

 

[face2face]

@Johann, unfortunately, your doctrine prevents you from recognizing the Master's limitations and infirmities.

This places you at a great loss.

F2F

 

[face2face]

what in Jesus needed to be redeemed?...Jesus is our redeemer, what in us needs to be redeemed ?

Like you and I he was held under the condemnation of death.

You should read Romans 6 very carefully Rita, that will help you understand why God did what he did in raising up a son from the fallen line.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Okay, so I had hoped with your Bible in hand it was apparently clear.

Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and NOT a Leviticial Priest. For Jesus to go in would have broken the Law which he was born under!

"And you shall appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall guard their priesthood. But if any outsider comes near, he shall be put to death." (Numbers 3:10, ESV)

In 1 Chronicles 23:13, it also specifies that only the sons of Aaron, from the tribe of Levi, could serve as priests:

"The sons of Amram: Aaron and Moses. Aaron was set apart to consecrate the most holy things, he and his sons forever, to burn incense before the Lord, to minister to him and to bless in his name forever." (1 Chronicles 23:13, ESV)

The heretical things belong to you Johann because you know not the Word or the Christ.

I could go on to show you his Priesthood and how those in him will become Kings and Priests in the Kingdom Age but it's clear you would rather withdraw into the darnkess of the night.

F2F

"Your claim that Jesus was unable to enter the Holy Place or Holy of Holies during His 'probation' misrepresents the biblical teaching."

Your assertion misunderstands the nature of Christ's priesthood. Jesus was not functioning as a Levitical priest under the Mosaic covenant but as a priest "after the order of Melchizedek" (Hebrews 7:17), which transcends and fulfills the limitations of the Levitical priesthood.

Unlike the sons of Aaron, His priesthood is eternal and not bound by the earthly sanctuary or its regulations (Hebrews 7:23-28).

Heb 7:12 for the priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of the law a change doth come,
Heb 7:13 for he of whom these things are said in another tribe hath had part, of whom no one gave attendance at the altar,
Heb 7:14 for it is evident that out of Judah hath arisen our Lord, in regard to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet more abundantly most evident, if according to the similitude of Melchisedek there doth arise another priest,
Heb 7:16 who came not according to the law of a fleshly command, but according to the power of an endless life,
Heb 7:17 for He doth testify—'Thou art a priest—to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'
Heb 7:18 for a disannulling indeed doth come of the command going before because of its weakness, and unprofitableness,

"Jesus, as the eternal High Priest, entered the true Holy of Holies in heaven by His own blood, fulfilling and surpassing the typology of the earthly sanctuary."

Hebrews 9:11-12 states plainly: "But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

This shows that Jesus' priesthood operates in the heavenly tabernacle, which is the archetype of the earthly one. The Levitical system was a shadow of the heavenly realities (Hebrews 8:5), and Jesus' priesthood fulfills what the Law and earthly sanctuary could not accomplish.

"There is no scriptural basis for suggesting that Jesus was in any way limited or on probation regarding His priestly role or access to the presence of God."

Jesus, being sinless and perfectly obedient, had unrestricted access to the Father (John 10:30; John 17:5). His priestly role was ordained before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20) and manifested in His atoning work on the cross. There is no concept of "probation" in Scripture regarding Jesus' ministry or priesthood. Such an idea diminishes His divine nature and eternal priesthood.

"Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and NOT a Levitical priest. For Jesus to go in would have broken the Law which he was born under!"

It is correct that Jesus was from the tribe of Judah (Hebrews 7:14). However, His priesthood does not depend on Levitical lineage but on the power of an indestructible life (Hebrews 7:16).

This fulfills the prophecy of Psalm 110:4: "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Jesus' priesthood operates on an entirely different plane, superseding the limitations of the Mosaic covenant. The Levitical priesthood was temporary and imperfect, pointing forward to Christ's superior and eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:18-19).
Quoting Numbers 3:10 and 1 Chronicles 23:13:

These passages confirm that under the Mosaic covenant, only Aaron's descendants could serve as priests in the earthly sanctuary. However, these regulations do not apply to Jesus because His priesthood belongs to the Melchizedekian order, not the Levitical order.

Hebrews 8:6 explains that Jesus' ministry is "more excellent" because it is established on better promises.


Your accusation misunderstands the biblical teaching on Jesus' priesthood and the New Covenant. Hebrews 10:19-22 invites believers to approach God with confidence because of Jesus' priestly work: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh."



Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 affirm that believers will reign as kings and priests. However, this future reality does not negate the present reality of Christ's priesthood. Believers' roles as priests are grounded in Jesus' completed work as the High Priest who has reconciled us to God (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).


Jesus as High Priest in the Order of Melchizedek

Psalm 110:4: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.’"

Hebrews 7:17: "For it is witnessed of him, ‘You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.’"

Hebrews 5:6: "As he also says in another place, ‘You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.’"

2. Jesus Entering the True Holy of Holies

Hebrews 9:11-12: "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come... not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Hebrews 8:5: "They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God..."

Hebrews 9:24: "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

3. No Probationary Period for Jesus

Hebrews 7:26-27: "For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens."

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."

John 17:5: "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Philippians 2:6-7: "Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation."

4. Tribe of Judah vs. Levitical Priesthood

Hebrews 7:14: "For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood."

Hebrews 7:15-16: "And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life."

5. The Mosaic Law’s Priesthood Restrictions

Numbers 3:10: "And you shall appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall attend to their priesthood; but the outsider who comes near shall be put to death."

1 Chronicles 23:13: "The sons of Amram: Aaron and Moses. And Aaron was set apart, he and his sons forever, that he should sanctify the most holy things."

6. Believers Becoming Kings and Priests

Revelation 1:6: "...and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

Revelation 5:10: "...and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth."

1 Peter 2:9: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people..."

7. Encouragement to Approach God with Confidence

Hebrews 10:19-22: "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us..."

Hebrews 4:14-16: "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession... Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace."

Late here in South Africa but I do think you have your wires crossed @face2face.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

"Your claim that Jesus was unable to enter the Holy Place or Holy of Holies during His 'probation' misrepresents the biblical teaching."

Your assertion misunderstands the nature of Christ's priesthood. Jesus was not functioning as a Levitical priest under the Mosaic covenant but as a priest "after the order of Melchizedek" (Hebrews 7:17), which transcends and fulfills the limitations of the Levitical priesthood.

Unlike the sons of Aaron, His priesthood is eternal and not bound by the earthly sanctuary or its regulations (Hebrews 7:23-28).

Heb 7:12 for the priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of the law a change doth come,
Heb 7:13 for he of whom these things are said in another tribe hath had part, of whom no one gave attendance at the altar,
Heb 7:14 for it is evident that out of Judah hath arisen our Lord, in regard to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet more abundantly most evident, if according to the similitude of Melchisedek there doth arise another priest,
Heb 7:16 who came not according to the law of a fleshly command, but according to the power of an endless life,
Heb 7:17 for He doth testify—'Thou art a priest—to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'
Heb 7:18 for a disannulling indeed doth come of the command going before because of its weakness, and unprofitableness,

"Jesus, as the eternal High Priest, entered the true Holy of Holies in heaven by His own blood, fulfilling and surpassing the typology of the earthly sanctuary."

Hebrews 9:11-12 states plainly: "But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

This shows that Jesus' priesthood operates in the heavenly tabernacle, which is the archetype of the earthly one. The Levitical system was a shadow of the heavenly realities (Hebrews 8:5), and Jesus' priesthood fulfills what the Law and earthly sanctuary could not accomplish.

"There is no scriptural basis for suggesting that Jesus was in any way limited or on probation regarding His priestly role or access to the presence of God."

Jesus, being sinless and perfectly obedient, had unrestricted access to the Father (John 10:30; John 17:5). His priestly role was ordained before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20) and manifested in His atoning work on the cross. There is no concept of "probation" in Scripture regarding Jesus' ministry or priesthood. Such an idea diminishes His divine nature and eternal priesthood.

"Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and NOT a Levitical priest. For Jesus to go in would have broken the Law which he was born under!"

It is correct that Jesus was from the tribe of Judah (Hebrews 7:14). However, His priesthood does not depend on Levitical lineage but on the power of an indestructible life (Hebrews 7:16).

This fulfills the prophecy of Psalm 110:4: "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Jesus' priesthood operates on an entirely different plane, superseding the limitations of the Mosaic covenant. The Levitical priesthood was temporary and imperfect, pointing forward to Christ's superior and eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:18-19).
Quoting Numbers 3:10 and 1 Chronicles 23:13:

These passages confirm that under the Mosaic covenant, only Aaron's descendants could serve as priests in the earthly sanctuary. However, these regulations do not apply to Jesus because His priesthood belongs to the Melchizedekian order, not the Levitical order.

Hebrews 8:6 explains that Jesus' ministry is "more excellent" because it is established on better promises.


Your accusation misunderstands the biblical teaching on Jesus' priesthood and the New Covenant. Hebrews 10:19-22 invites believers to approach God with confidence because of Jesus' priestly work: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh."



Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 affirm that believers will reign as kings and priests. However, this future reality does not negate the present reality of Christ's priesthood. Believers' roles as priests are grounded in Jesus' completed work as the High Priest who has reconciled us to God (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).


Jesus as High Priest in the Order of Melchizedek

Psalm 110:4: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.’"

Hebrews 7:17: "For it is witnessed of him, ‘You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.’"

Hebrews 5:6: "As he also says in another place, ‘You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.’"

2. Jesus Entering the True Holy of Holies

Hebrews 9:11-12: "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come... not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Hebrews 8:5: "They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God..."

Hebrews 9:24: "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

3. No Probationary Period for Jesus

Hebrews 7:26-27: "For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens."

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."

John 17:5: "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Philippians 2:6-7: "Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation."

4. Tribe of Judah vs. Levitical Priesthood

Hebrews 7:14: "For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood."

Hebrews 7:15-16: "And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life."

5. The Mosaic Law’s Priesthood Restrictions

Numbers 3:10: "And you shall appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall attend to their priesthood; but the outsider who comes near shall be put to death."

1 Chronicles 23:13: "The sons of Amram: Aaron and Moses. And Aaron was set apart, he and his sons forever, that he should sanctify the most holy things."

6. Believers Becoming Kings and Priests

Revelation 1:6: "...and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

Revelation 5:10: "...and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth."

1 Peter 2:9: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people..."

7. Encouragement to Approach God with Confidence

Hebrews 10:19-22: "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us..."

Hebrews 4:14-16: "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession... Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace."

Late here in South Africa but I do think you have your wires crossed @face2face.

J.

Johann,
Have you forgotten that that the Word/Lord, in fact appeared in the Holiest of Holies???

 

[face2face]

"There is no scriptural basis for suggesting that Jesus was in any way limited or on probation regarding His priestly role or access to the presence of God."

Not once did he enter and not once could he enter with the penalty of death!

The Holy of Holies was the most sacred part of the temple, and only the High Priest, once a year on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), was permitted to enter it to offer sacrifices for the sins of the people (Leviticus 16:2, 34).

Jesus came to fulfill the Law NOT to break it!

God established a new Priesthood when God raised him from the dead. Another "order" in which he became it's High Priest!

You keep kicking against the pricks J.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Johann,
Have you forgotten that that the Word/Lord, in fact appeared in the Holiest of Holies???

No, I haven't, you read my post to @face2face who hold that idea.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

Not once did he enter and not once could he enter with the penalty of death!

The Holy of Holies was the most sacred part of the temple, and only the High Priest, once a year on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), was permitted to enter it to offer sacrifices for the sins of the people (Leviticus 16:2, 34).

Jesus came to fulfill the Law NOT to break it!

God established a new Priesthood when God raised him from the dead. Another "order" in which he became it's High Priest!

You keep kicking against the pricks J.

F2F

the Word/Lord, in fact appeared in the Holiest of Holies

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Only by Jesus' death was he able to enter God's presence in Heaven. The physical temple and the Holiest Place was fobidden to one of the tribe of Judah!

Everyone in the forum should know that!

F2F

 

[face2face]

the Word/Lord, in fact appeared in the Holiest of Holies

After his death, yes!

But never in the physical temple!

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

No, I haven't, you read my post to @face2face who hold that idea.

J.

Your Post 2,914 doe snot have the OT Scripture where HE appeared over the Mercy Seat/Holiest of Holies.