Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

You accuse others of veering off truth, but with each post you dig a hole for yourself-where did Messiah need redemption?

No, wait--I don't want to hear.

J.

I think you should change your name to Nabal (נָבָל) and I say that respectfully with the full intent Scripture gives it!

I will post one verse proving this truth for every foolish reply!

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to God who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Now let me get on with my posts to Wrangler and Apak!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler @APAK

You will notice:

this:

And he (Jesus) was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood,

Comes before this:

and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

Christ being raised up in sins flesh and being redeemed by his own blood resulted in him being called "The Word of God"

Now think about that for a moment!

The Lord was, is, and will be the complete manifestation of the Law and Prophets: they find absolute fulfilment in him. It is significant that whereas in the Gospel the title of The Word, or The Logos is absolute (John 1:1), here it is qualified, as of God.

Can you see the qualification?

 

[face2face]

Now @Wrangler @APAK

We need to leave the Trinitarians behind again, not willingly, but of their own choosing!

Look and marvel at this:

And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him (Christ) on white horses. Re 19:14.

The forces in the coming political landscape will consist of the glorified redeemed (us!), those who are "called, chosen, and faithful" and who will be with the Lord at that time (Rev 17:14). The Gospel call is an invitation to enlist in this divine army

Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him! 2 Ti 2:2–4.

Success in this army requires discipline and training, demanding a commitment of both mind and body to be effective soldiers. In that army, yet to be revealed on earth, the prophetic title of Yahweh Sabaoth — "He Who commands armies" — will be fully realized, the belligerent title of Deity as seen in Isa. 9:7.

Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. Is 9:7.

The Glorified Saints become Yahweh Sabaoth (the redeemed from the earth) with Christ as their Captain.



He is the firstfruits of the resurrection, the firstborn... the beginning of His creation!

 

[Johann]

I think you should change your name to Nabal (נָבָל) and I say that respectfully with the full intent Scripture gives it!

I will post one verse proving this truth for every foolish reply!

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to God who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Now let me get on with my posts to Wrangler and Apak!

F2F

Where did Jesus need redemption?

Heb 5:7 [He] Ὃς in ἐν the ταῖς days ἡμέραις of τῆς His αὐτοῦ flesh, σαρκὸς having offered up προσενέγκας both τε prayers δεήσεις and καὶ supplications ἱκετηρίας with μετὰ loud ἰσχυρᾶς crying κραυγῆς and καὶ tears δακρύων to πρὸς the [One] τὸν being able δυνάμενον to save σῴζειν Him αὐτὸν from ἐκ death, θανάτου and καὶ having been heard εἰσακουσθεὶς because of ἀπὸ - τῆς reverent submission, εὐλαβείας,

Heb 5:7 Who01 In02 The03 Days04 Of-the05 Flesh06 Of-him07 Petitions08 (bs)both09 And10 Supplications11 Toward12 The13 one-being-able14 To-be-saving15 Him16 Out17 Of-death18 With19 Clamor20 Strong21 And22 Tears23 offering24 also25 being-hearkened-to26 From27 The28 Piety29

death. Not from death, for the Greek word is ek, not apo. He went down into death, but was saved out of (Greek. ek) it by resurrection.

Heb 5:7 WhoG3739 inG1722 theG3588 daysG2250 of hisG848 flesh,G4561 when he had offered upG4374 (G5037) prayersG1162 andG2532 supplicationsG2428 withG3326 strongG2478 cryingG2906 andG2532 tearsG1144 untoG4314 him that was ableG1410 to saveG4982 himG846 fromG1537 death,G2288 andG2532 was heardG1522 in that he feared;G575 G2124


σώζω
sözö
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sös̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Total Occurrences: 110
ἐσῴζοντο esṓizonto (1) V-IPI-3P
were made whole Mar_6:56
ἐσώθη esṓthç (4) V-API-3S
be saved: Mat_24:22, w/G302
should be saved: Mar_13:20, w/G302
was healed Luk_8:36
was made whole Mat_9:22
ἐσώθημεν esṓthçmen (1) V-API-1P
we are saved Rom_8:24
ἔσωσεν ésôsen (4) V-AAI-3S
He saved Mat_27:42, Mar_15:31, Luk_23:35, Tit_3:5
σέσωκέν sésôkén (7) V-RAI-3S
hath made thee whole. Mat_9:22, Mar_5:34, Mar_10:52, Luk_8:48, Luk_17:19, w/G4571
hath saved Luk_7:50, Luk_18:42
σεσῳσμένοι sesôisménoi (2) V-RPP-NPM
saved Eph_2:5
ye saved Eph_2:8
σέσωσται sésôstai (1) V-RPI-3S
is made whole Act_4:9
σῴζει sṓizei (1) V-PAI-3S
save 1Pe_3:21
σῴζειν sṓizein (2) V-PAN
to save Heb_5:7, Heb_7:25
σῴζεσθαι sṓizesthai (1) V-PPN
should be saved Act_27:20
σῴζεσθε sṓizesthe (1) V-PPI-2P
ye are saved 1Co_15:2
σῴζεται sṓizetai (1) V-PPI-3S
be saved 1Pe_4:18
σῴζετε sṓizete (1) V-PAM-2P
save Jud_1:23
σῳζόμενοι sôizómenoi (1) V-PPP-NPM
that be saved Luk_13:23
σῳζομένοις sôizoménois (2) V-PPP-DPM
are saved 1Co_1:18
them that are saved 2Co_2:15
σῳζομένους sôizoménous (1) V-PPP-APM
such as should be saved Act_2:47
σωζομένων sôzoménôn (1) V-PPP-GPM
of them which are saved Rev_21:24
σωθῇ sôthç̂i (3) V-APS-3S
may be saved 1Co_5:5
might be saved Joh_3:17
she may be healed Mar_5:23
σωθῆναι sôthç̂nai (10) V-APN
be saved Mat_19:25, Mar_10:26, Luk_18:26, Act_4:12, Act_15:1, Act_27:31
might be saved 2Th_2:10
to be healed Act_14:9
to be saved 1Ti_2:4
we shall be saved Act_15:11
σωθήσεται sôthḗsetai (13) V-FPI-3S
he shall be saved Joh_10:9
he shall do well Joh_11:12
himself shall be saved 1Co_3:15
saved Mat_10:22
shall be saved Mat_24:13, Mar_13:13, Mar_16:16, Act_2:21, Rom_9:27, Rom_10:13, Rom_11:26
she shall be made whole Luk_8:50
she shall be saved 1Ti_2:15
σωθήσῃ sôthḗsçi (3) V-FPI-2S
shall be saved Act_11:14
shalt be saved Act_16:31
thou shalt be saved Rom_10:9
σωθήσομαι sôthḗsomai (2) V-FPI-1S
I shall be whole Mat_9:21, Mar_5:28
σωθησόμεθα sôthçsómetha (2) V-FPI-1P
we shall be saved Rom_5:9-10 (2)
σωθῆτε sôthç̂te (2) V-APS-2P
might be saved Joh_5:34
Σώθητε Sṓthçte (1) V-APM-2P
Save Act_2:40
σωθῶ sôthô̂ (1) V-APS-1S
be saved Act_16:30
σωθῶσιν sôthô̂sin (3) V-APS-3P
and be saved Luk_8:12
they may be saved 1Co_10:33
they might be saved 1Th_2:16
σῶσαι sô̂sai (16) V-AAN
save Mat_16:25, Mat_27:42, Mar_8:35, Mar_15:31, Luk_9:24, Jam_2:14
to save Mat_18:11, Mar_3:4, Luk_6:9, Luk_9:56, Luk_17:33, Luk_19:10, 1Co_1:21, 1Ti_1:15, Jam_1:21, Jam_4:12
σώσαντος sṓsantos (1) V-AAP-GSM
Who hath saved 2Ti_1:9
σώσας sṓsas (1) V-AAP-NSM
having saved Jud_1:5
σωσάτω sôsátô (1) V-AAM-3S
let him save Luk_23:35
σώσει sṓsei (6) V-FAI-3S
shall save Mat_1:21, Mar_8:35, Luk_9:24, Jam_5:15, Jam_5:20
will preserve 2Ti_4:18
σώσεις sṓseis (3) V-FAI-2S
save 1Ti_4:16
thou shalt save 1Co_7:16 (2)
σῶσόν sô̂són (2) V-AAM-2S
save Mat_14:30, Joh_12:27
σῶσον sô̂son (5) V-AAM-2S
save Mat_8:25, Mat_27:40, Mar_15:30, Luk_23:37, Luk_23:39
σώσω sṓsô (3) V-AAS-1S
might save Rom_11:14
save Joh_12:47, 1Co_9:22
σώσων sṓsôn (1) V-FAP-NSM
to save Mat_27:49
English to Strong’s
do well G15, G4983
healed G2323, G2390, G4982
preserve G2225, G4982
save G235, G1295, G1508, G2228, G3844, G4133, G4982
saved G1295, G4982, G4991, G5442
whole G537, G2390, G2480, G3390, G3646, G3648, G3650, G3956, G3958, G4982, G5198, G5199

Redemption-

Rom_3:24 Being justifiedG1344 [G5746] freelyG1432 by hisG846 graceG5485 throughG1223 the redemptionG629 that is inG1722 ChristG5547 JesusG2424:

Rom_8:23 AndG1161 notG3756 onlyG3440 they , butG235 ourselvesG846 alsoG2532, which haveG2192 [G5723] the firstfruitsG536 of the SpiritG4151, evenG2532 weG2249 ourselvesG846 groanG4727 [G5719] withinG1722 ourselvesG1438, waitingG553 [G5740] for the adoptionG5206, to wit , the redemptionG629 of ourG2257 bodyG4983.

1Co_1:30 ButG1161 ofG1537 himG846 areG2075 [G5748] yeG5210 inG1722 ChristG5547 JesusG2424, whoG3739 ofG575 GodG2316 is madeG1096 [G5675] unto usG2254 G5037 wisdomG4678, and righteousnessG1343, andG2532 sanctificationG38, andG2532 redemptionG629:

Eph_1:7 InG1722 whomG3739 we haveG2192 [G5719] redemptionG629 throughG1223 hisG846 bloodG129, the forgivenessG859 of sinsG3900, accordingG2596 to the richesG4149 of hisG846 graceG5485;

Eph_1:14 WhichG3739 isG2076 [G5748] the earnestG728 of ourG2257 inheritanceG2817 untilG1519 the redemptionG629 of the purchased possessionG4047, untoG1519 the praiseG1868 of hisG846 gloryG1391.

Eph_4:30 AndG2532 grieveG3076 [G5720] notG3361 the holyG40 SpiritG4151 of GodG2316, wherebyG1722 G3739 ye are sealedG4972 [G5681] untoG1519 the dayG2250 of redemptionG629.

Col_1:14 InG1722 whomG3739 we haveG2192 [G5719] redemptionG629 throughG1223 hisG846 bloodG129, even the forgivenessG859 of sinsG266:


You are presumptuous and speak foolishly and your folly is seen by all.

J.

 

[face2face]

Where did Jesus need redemption?

Heb 5:7 [He] Ὃς in ἐν the ταῖς days ἡμέραις of τῆς His αὐτοῦ flesh, σαρκὸς having offered up προσενέγκας both τε prayers δεήσεις and καὶ supplications ἱκετηρίας with μετὰ loud ἰσχυρᾶς crying κραυγῆς and καὶ tears δακρύων to πρὸς the [One] τὸν being able δυνάμενον to save σῴζειν Him αὐτὸν from ἐκ death, θανάτου and καὶ having been heard εἰσακουσθεὶς because of ἀπὸ - τῆς reverent submission, εὐλαβείας,

Heb 5:7 Who01 In02 The03 Days04 Of-the05 Flesh06 Of-him07 Petitions08 (bs)both09 And10 Supplications11 Toward12 The13 one-being-able14 To-be-saving15 Him16 Out17 Of-death18 With19 Clamor20 Strong21 And22 Tears23 offering24 also25 being-hearkened-to26 From27 The28 Piety29

To save him from death!

2. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Lets add the Scriptures up as you show your ignorance and the Word of God shows it's truth!

1. Jesus offering up strong tears and crying to the One who is able to save him from death! (One Being able!)
2. Death no longer has dominion over him!



F2F

 

[CadyandZoe]

That can't be because you said that when Jesus instructed His apostles to initiate new disciples, as in Christians, of all nations in His name, that it's "for Jesus (Him)". Are you now saying that it's for the Son (Jesus), the Father, and the Holy Spirit?

What difference does it make?

 

[face2face]

"To save him from death!"

3. For the death he died, he died to sin (synonymous with flesh!) once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God. Rom 6:10.

Lets add the Scriptures up as you show your ignorance and the Word of God reveal it's truth!

1. Jesus offering up strong tears and crying to the One who is able to save him from death! (One Being able!)
2. Death no longer has dominion over him!
3. In the death he died, he died to sin's flesh once! (See Romans 8:1-3 coming soon @Johann!)


F2F

 

[Johann]

To save him from death!

2. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Lets add the Scriptures up as you show your ignorance and the Word of God shows it's truth!

1. Jesus offering up strong tears and crying to the One who is able to save him from death! (One Being able!)
2. Death no longer has dominion over him!



F2F

Are you that clueless?!

What is save and redemption in Koine Greek? Or in Hebrew for that matter?

The13 one-being-able14 To-be-saving15 Him16 Out17 Of-death18

σωζειν αυτον εκ θανατου

Here is my challenge to you-give me ONE reference that Messiah needed redemption since this is what you believe.

There is no Scripture that explicitly states that Jesus needed redemption, as the New Testament consistently affirms that Jesus was sinless and did not require redemption for Himself. The concept of redemption in Christian theology is tied to the idea of being saved from sin, and since Jesus was without sin, He did not need salvation or redemption.

Go ahead-I'll be waiting.

J.

 

[face2face]

"To save him from death!"

4. Now may the God of peace who by the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead the great shepherd (Jesus) of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, Heb 13:20

Lets add the Scriptures up as you show your ignorance and the Word of God reveal it's truth!

1. Jesus offering up strong tears and crying to the One who is able to save him from death! (One Being able!)
2. Death no longer has dominion over him!
3. In the death he died, he died to sin's flesh once! (See Romans 8:1-3 coming soon @Johann!)
4. God raised Jesus through the Blood of the enternal covenant from the dead

@Johann

F2F

 

[CadyandZoe]

Incorrect.
The Word

We must keep foremost in our thinking the purpose of John’s prologue. It can be summed up rather simply: Who is the Word?

Wrong question. Logos is not a "who"; it's a "what."

 

[Johann]

"To save him from death!"

4. Now may the God of peace who by the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead the great shepherd (Jesus) of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, Heb 13:20

Lets add the Scriptures up as you show your ignorance and the Word of God reveal it's truth!

1. Jesus offering up strong tears and crying to the One who is able to save him from death! (One Being able!)
2. Death no longer has dominion over him!
3. In the death he died, he died to sin's flesh once! (See Romans 8:1-3 coming soon @Johann!)
4. God raised Jesus through the Blood of the enternal covenant from the dead

@Johann

F2F

Evasion (or Avoidance) Fallacy:

You have nothing, just as you have nothing against the Triune Godhead.

Your problem is that you post before you think it through.

J.

 

[face2face]

There is no Scripture that explicitly states that Jesus needed redemption, as the New Testament consistently affirms that Jesus was sinless and did not require redemption for Himself. The concept of redemption in Christian theology is tied to the idea of being saved from sin, and since Jesus was without sin, He did not need salvation or redemption.

I'm clueless and you don't even know what the word redemption means!

5. and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he (Jesus) himself secured eternal redemption Heb 9:12

λύω and Compounds. The Gk. word λύω “to loose” is rich in compounds which give nuances to the basic meaning.

Not only did he secure eternal redemption for himself he did so for you and you are clueless as to how and why!

Wow, I've never encountered someone so completely misguided yet convinced they've discovered the truth!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Evasion (or Avoidance) Fallacy:

You have nothing, just as you have nothing against the Triune Godhead.

Your problem is that you post before you think it through.

J.

And this all you could write Johann, why? because you don't understand the true Christ and His God and how The God of peace who by the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead the great shepherd (Jesus) of the sheep

You can't even recognize the means by which God raised His Son—it's as if the Trinity has clouded your judgment and stripped you of basic understanding and common sense.

This is madness taken to a whole new level! (@Wrangler @APAK)

Even with a high-powered drill, it wouldn't make a dent in his cranium!

F2F

 

[face2face]

I'm clueless and you don't even know what the word redemption means!

5. and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he (Jesus) himself secured eternal redemption Heb 9:12

λύω and Compounds. The Gk. word λύω “to loose” is rich in compounds which give nuances to the basic meaning.

Not only did he secure eternal redemption for himself he did so for you and you are clueless as to how and why!

Wow, I've never encountered someone so completely misguided yet convinced they've discovered the truth!

F2F

What's worse, is that I've already given him the verse he asked for. Do you @Wrangler @APAK think he'll come back and admit that Hebrews 9:12 is emphatically true and correct?

Not a chance!

1. By his own blood!
2. Double emphaisis "He himself"

Its as though the Word is wanting it to lodge firmly in our minds!

 

[Johann]

I'm clueless and you don't even know what the word redemption means!

5. and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he (Jesus) himself secured eternal redemption Heb 9:12

λύω and Compounds. The Gk. word λύω “to loose” is rich in compounds which give nuances to the basic meaning.

Not only did he secure eternal redemption for himself he did so for you and you are clueless as to how and why!

Wow, I've never encountered someone so completely misguided yet convinced they've discovered the truth!

F2F

Admit it, your error is now fully revealed. The Messiah required NO redemption.

redemption. Greek. lutrosis. Only here and Luk_1:68; Luk_2:38.

Having obtained eternal redemption for us - That is, by the shedding of his blood. On the meaning of the word “redemption,” see notes on Gal_3:13. The redemption which the Lord Jesus effected for his people is eternal. It will continue forever. It is not a temporary deliverance leaving the redeemed in danger of falling into sin and ruin, but it makes salvation secure, and in its effects extends through eternity. Who can estimate the extent of that love which purchased for us “such” a redemption? Who can be sufficiently grateful that he is thus redeemed? The doctrine in this verse is, that the blood of Christ is the means of redemption, or atones for sin. In the following verses the apostle shows that it not only makes atonement for sin, but that it is the means of sanctifying or purifying the soul.



The concept of eternal redemption in Hebrews 9:12 is applied to those who are redeemed by Christ's sacrifice, specifically referring to believers in Christ. The context of the passage reveals that Jesus' sacrifice was meant to provide salvation for humanity, but it is particularly available to those who accept and believe in Him.

Key Points from Hebrews 9:12:
"He entered once for all into the Most Holy Place, not by the blood of goats and calves but by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12, ESV).

This redemption is not automatic for all people universally but is secured for those who respond to Jesus' sacrifice in faith.

Further Context in Hebrews:
Hebrews 9:15: "Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance..."

Here, those who are called refers to believers—those who respond to God's invitation through faith in Christ.

Hebrews 9:28: "so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him."

The "many" here refers to those who accept Christ's atoning sacrifice.

Theological Understanding:
Eternal Redemption is a spiritual deliverance from sin and its consequences that Christ accomplished for those who trust in Him. It is eternal in the sense that it is final and unfailing, unlike the temporary and insufficient sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

Who is it for?: Eternal redemption is for those who believe in Jesus-those who are part of the New Covenant established by His blood (Luke 22:20). It is through faith in His finished work that people receive this redemption.


Eternal redemption is for believers-those who trust in Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection as the means of their salvation. It is not automatic for all people but is applied to those who respond in faith to the gospel.

Think BEFORE you post and read your Bible.

J.

 

[face2face]

Admit it, your error is now fully revealed. The Messiah required NO redemption.

redemption. Greek. lutrosis. Only here and Luk_1:68; Luk_2:38.

Having obtained eternal redemption for us -

Hebrews 9:12, when referring to "for us," is not present in some of the earliest manuscript copies of the text.

Once again I see your pain!

 

[face2face]

Think BEFORE you post and read your Bible.

And I would have thought will all those commentaries at your finger tips you would have known this?

Lets post it again for emphasis!

And he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. Heb 9:12.

What did Jesus need to be redeemed from?

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

What's worse, is that I've already given him the verse he asked for. Do you @Wrangler @APAK think he'll come back and admit that Hebrews 9:12 is emphatically true and correct?

Not a chance!

1. By his own blood!
2. Double emphaisis "He himself"

Its as though the Word is wanting it to lodge firmly in our minds!

Not a chance! As you said.

As a child I could not understand IDOLATRY, people worshipping statues. As I got into Scripture I realized it is anything manmade. The doctrine of the trinity is the biggest IDOL in Christendom, wholly absent in God's 66 books. Yet, there are devotees of this 4th century manmade doctrine who have killed over it, taken property, beaten people and threaten even today. I've been threatened with hell fire for not accepting 3-is-1-ism all my life, accused of what they themselves have done, accepted a lie.

When asked why is believing in the trinity important, they give poorly thought out answers that make no sense. The mental gymnastics in their response to the fact that only God the Father is in Scripture is something to behold.

Then there is the translators, who impose their trinitarianism unto unitarian text, e.g., houtos means the preposition "this" not the pronoun "he" in John 1:2. Biblegateway takes capital-LORD when you copy and paste it becomes lowercase-lord to blurr the distinct line. It's not a simple mistake; it's IDOLATRY, which proves they know God's word, as written, does not support the trinity. Otherwise, why is there the diabolicial need to change it?

Houtos Means Only "This" (John 6:60 & 1:2)

This is a rare exploration by me into foreign Languages. houtos is the Greek word in both verses. It means "this" in English. οὗτος - Wiktionary Determiner οὗτος • (hoûtos), f αὕτη (haútē), n τοῦτο (toûto) (medial demonstrative determiner and pronoun) this (of place) here in contrast with ὅδε...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Johann]

Hebrews 9:12, when referring to "for us," is not present in some of the earliest manuscript copies of the text.

Once again I see your pain!

No textual variant here-once again you err, not knowing the Scriptures. You are referencing the wrong verse, to begin with, and you probably want to hone in on Heb 9.14 which is not a problem at all.

Heb 9:12 nor οὐδὲ by δι’ blood αἵματος of goats τράγων and καὶ calves, μόσχων, but δὲ through διὰ the τοῦ own ἰδίου blood, αἵματος, He entered εἰσῆλθεν once for all ἐφάπαξ into εἰς the τὰ holy places, ἅγια, having obtained εὑράμενος. eternal αἰωνίαν redemption. λύτρωσιν

Heb 9:12 not-(yet)even01 through02 Blood03 Of-he-goats04 And05 calves06 through07 Yet08 the09 Own10 Blood11 entered12 once-for-all13 Into14 The15 holy-[place]s16 Eonian17 redemption18 Finding19

ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος

Heb 9:12 neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;

This is becoming quite embarrassing for you-reading this verse as though the Messiah needed redemption. This is your belief, and you're forced to twist it in order to fit your misguided narrative.

J.

 

[Johann]

And I would have thought will all those commentaries at your finger tips you would have known this?

Lets post it again for emphasis!

And he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. Heb 9:12.

What did Jesus need to be redeemed from?

F2F

Nothing, nada, zip--you are forcing your erroneous eisegesis into this verse.

J.