Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

Well, that's an expected response from someone who doesn't currently recognize that the Holy Trinity is God.

Did you spend a quiet moment searching those Elohim references?
F2F

 

[face2face]

@LuxMundi If you believe Adam and Eve became like the Trinity, you have more issues to address than just defending what's indefensible.

 

[Magdala]

@LuxMundi If you believe Adam and Eve became like the Trinity, you have more issues to address than just defending what's indefensible.

I didn't say that Eve and Adam became one of the Holy Trinity.

They couldn't! The Holy Trinity isn't a thing for them to become in the first place - that's the point Lux!
Sharpen up!

Gen. 3:22 doesn't say that Eve and Adam became one of them (Us), but rather that they became like them (Us) by coming to know good and evil. The first and subsequent humans became like the Holy Trinity by becoming knowledgeable of good and evil ever since the first disobeyed.

 

[face2face]

Out of interest @LuxMundi

Do you believe it was the Trinity who walked Adam & Eve out of the Garden?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler @APAK will it rain truth or error?

 

[David in NJ]

Well if you could identify correct your obsession with three's, maybe the door of truth would open for you also?
F2F

You are on the wrong side of truth, since you oppose the Truth.

Us Our Our
THREE is the POWER

 

[Magdala]

Out of interest @LuxMundi

Do you believe it was the Trinity who walked Adam & Eve out of the Garden?

F2F

"Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden [...]" (Gen. 3:23)

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus is 100% what Scripture says he is, over and over and over again; a man. Begotten is proof text Jesus is NOT God for it means created and God is not created but the Creator.

Nowhere in scripture is begotten used to mean created. Begotten means bringing forth from one's own self. It isn't created as in creation... let there be, and it was. Jesus Himself declared that He came forth of the Father, a true literal Son. Read again the gospel of John and his letters, all of which he wrote as a divine theology to counter heretical beliefs such as your own.
The Bible very clearly says that Christ is God. The opening words of John’s Gospel tell us
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” John 1:1-3
That “the Word” is Christ is beyond question. As John went on to say
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:14

Whatever else we may make of John’s opening words, we are told in no uncertain terms that Christ is God. The question is though, how is it possible for Christ to be God, yet at the same time be with God, the latter of whom most would readily identify as the Father? John himself provides the answer. Near the end of his Gospel he explains
“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” John 20:30-31

Here we are told the purpose of John’s Gospel. It is to show that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”. The “signs” referred to here are some of the acts and the words of Christ that John, inspired by the Holy Spirit, selected to show that this is true. John’s Gospel therefore is a divine theology. This is why it is so unlike the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. These latter accounts of the life of Christ, often referred to as the synoptic Gospels, had been written around 30 or 40 years previous to John writing his Gospel. John’s Gospel is amongst the last of the revelations that the church, through the Bible writers, would receive from God. Within it we find the most complete revelation of God to humanity. Many scholars estimate it to have been written near the end of the first century (c. AD 96). This was at a time when the church,
although still in its infancy, was already under threat from false teachings. This was particularly regarding the identity and the nature of Christ. These erroneous teachings came from within the church and from without. John therefore would have been very careful when selecting the words he would write. This is why his Gospel, particularly with respect to Christ’s personal identity, should be regarded as highly significant. It appears that John wrote his Gospel with the sole purpose of refuting these false teachings. The introduction of such teachings into the early church was something that the apostle Paul had warned would happen (Acts 20:27-30). Such false teachings at that time came from Cerinthus, the gnostics, and the docetae.
It can now be seen why John began his Gospel by saying that the Word was God (1:1); that from the beginning the Word had been with God (1:2); that the Word had created all things (1:3); that the Word had become flesh (1:14). It can also be seen why John wrote that the divine Son of God was the One who knew God and had declared Him (1:18). It is hardly surprising that almost one half of John’s Gospel is taken up with the events of the Passion Week - which culminated of course with the death of Christ at Calvary (John 12:1-19:42). It is also said that the first two of John’s little letters (1 and 2 John) were written to combat these false teachings. Certainly there is a striking resemblance between the prologue of John’s Gospel (John 1:1-18) and these letters.
In his letters, John emphasised that Christ had come “in the flesh”. The importance John places on this can be seen in these words
“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” 1 John 4:3
“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” 2 John 1:7

John is the only Bible writer who uses the word “antichrist”. We can see from the above how he makes the application (see also 1 John 2:18 and 4:3). He also wrote (regarding antichrist)
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” 1 John 2:22

From the above we can see very clearly the problem that John was addressing. It was the same problem as he was addressing at the opening of his Gospel (see John 1:1, 14) John also emphasised that as Christians “we know” (see 1 John 2:3, 2:10, 3:2, 3:14, 3:19, 3:24). This was an experiential knowledge. This was in contrast to the philosophical knowledge of the Gnostics. This is why John could say
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;” 1 John 1:1
This is very similar to the opening of his Gospel (John 1:1). Notice that John says “our hands” have “handled” the Word. John was identifying himself with all the others who had actually been with Christ during His time on earth. These had been the eyewitnesses to Christ’s life, death and resurrection.

 

[David in NJ]

Not eternal in the past. If He was eternal in the past, you reduce His Sonship to a metaphor. He was begotten before creation, and we know this because the Father created all things through His Son.

He was begotten before creation,

FALSEHOOD
you must provide scritural evidence that is specific to the subject matter

and we know this because the Father created all things through His Son.

FALSEHOOD AGAIN

there is not a single scripture that declares the FATHER begot the WORD in the past

The Scripture declares that the FATHER begot His SON when the HOLY SPIRIT overshadowed Mary

@Brakelite, you are trying to appease the lies of jws on this thread and it will only backfire on you.

TURN BACK to TRUTH

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

 

[face2face]

"Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden [...]" (Gen. 3:23)

Did the Trinity walk Adam & Eve out of the Garden?

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler @APAK I thought you both would appreciate this exchange.

Lux is in a tight spot!

Why do you think Lux is in a tight spot if she believes the Trinity walked Adam & Eve from the Garden?

Only those who know the One True God and the story of Moses might understand!

F2F

 

[Brakelite]

Every Jew spoke of God as his Father. So why did they get so upset when Jesus did the same?
Jesus repeatedly spoke of God as His Father (Matthew 7:21, 10:32, 18:10, Luke 10:22, John 5:17, 6:65, 8:19, 8:28, 16:10 etc). In John’s Gospel alone there can be found over 30 instances where Jesus said “my Father”. As we noted above, John devoted his entire Gospel to show that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God (20:31) - hence his continuous reporting of Christ calling God His Father. The personal testimony of God was that Christ was His Son (Matthew 3:17, 17:5). There is overwhelming evidence in Scripture showing that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. It would be far too much to comment upon in detail here. Suffice it to say that certain of the Jews regarded His claim as blasphemous (Mark 14:60-65 John 10:36). They said He was claiming to be God (John 5:18, 10:3033). It was this claim of Sonship that He was challenged with at His trial (Matthew 26:63, Luke 22:70). The Jews said His claims made Him worthy of death (Mark 14:64, John 19:7, see also John 8:56-59). Jesus was mocked for claiming to be the Son of God (Matthew 27:40-43). It was on this point of Sonship with God that Satan challenged Christ in the wilderness (Matthew 4:3-6, Luke 4:3-9). Peter, when confessing Christ to be “the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16), was told by Jesus that it had not been “flesh and blood” that had revealed this to him but His Father in Heaven (Matthew 16:17). Jesus said very clearly that He was the Son of God (Matthew 16:16-17, John 3:16, 5:25-26, 9:35, 10:36, 11:4, 19:7). At His trial he claimed to be the Son of God (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Luke 22:70-71). It was this claim that brought about the sentence of death against Him (Mark 14:64, John 19:7).

The demons also addressed Jesus as the Son of God (Matthew 8:29, Mark 3:11, 5:7, Luke 4:41). The man in the tombs possessed of a devil also called Christ the Son of God (Luke 8:27-29). The Roman centurion said he believed that Christ was the Son of God (Mark 15:39). The disciples confessed Christ to be the Son of God (Matthew 14:33, 16:16, John 1:49, 11:27). Philip (the evangelist) explained to the Ethiopian eunuch that Christ was the Son of God (Acts 8:37). The first thing Paul taught after his 'blindness' was that Christ is the Son of God (Acts 9:20). Paul’s continuing theme was that God had sent His Son into the world to die (Romans 1:4, 8:3, 32, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 4:13 etc.). Not surprisingly, John's little letters, as does the book of Hebrews, constantly refer to Christ as the Son of God (1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12-13, 5:20, Hebrews 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29). That Christ is the Son of God was also the testimony of John the Baptist (John 1:32-34) – and so the list goes on.

I know many think that Jesus was God's Son only because of or since Bethlehem, but if that were true, then John made a serious mistake. He didn't even mention that! Imagine that.

No, Christ was begotten of God prior to mankind, walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, and spoke with numerous men and women of God since. Tell me. Who's Spirit spoke to men and women through the prophets?

 

[Magdala]

Lux is in a tight spot!

Is the answer I gave false?

 

[face2face]

Not eternal in the past. If He was eternal in the past, you reduce His Sonship to a metaphor. He was begotten before creation, and we know this because the Father created all things through His Son.

I think you have the timing a little off Brakelite - by his resurrection was he appointed the Son of God with Power.

 

[face2face]

Is the answer I gave false?

Did I say it was false?

 

[Magdala]

Did I say it was false?

If it was false, you would've said so and it's not.

 

[Magdala]

A similar use of language in reference to the Elohim can be found in Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, and other passages. In Genesis 3:22, it is written: "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil." Man could not become one of the Trinity, but he could become like one of the angels, as they attained their elevated status through probation. Christ promised that those who are approved will become "equal to the angels" in the Age to come (Luke 20:36). In Psalm 8:5, the word Elohim is translated as "angels." A comparison of Numbers 12:8 with Acts 7:38, or of Genesis 32:30 with Hosea 12:3-4, reveals that the word Elohim, when translated as "God," can also refer to angels, the representatives of Yahweh Elohim.

I'm happy for you to check all the references, but it's very clear—crystal clear, in fact!

So, you're saying that the word "Elohim" can refer to angels sometimes? Well, I've been talking about these following verses where it's God:

Gen. 1:26-27 states that man was created by God in God's image and likeness, not created by angels, nor in the image and likeness of angels. Therefore, the first-person plural words "Us" and "Our" in Gen. 1:26 can only refer to God. Why did the one God speak in the first-person plural? It's because He exists in three Persons: the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

"[...] God created man, in the likeness of God [...] (Gen. 5:1)

In Genesis 3:22, it is written: "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil." Man could not become one of the Trinity [...]

Gen. 3:22 doesn't say that Eve and Adam became one of them (Us), but rather that they became like them (Us) by coming to know good and evil. The first and subsequent humans became like the Holy Trinity by becoming knowledgeable of good and evil ever since the first disobeyed.

 

[face2face]

Every Jew spoke of God as his Father. So why did they get so upset when Jesus did the same?

Jesus repeatedly spoke of God as His Father (Matthew 7:21, 10:32, 18:10, Luke 10:22, John 5:17, 6:65, 8:19, 8:28, 16:10 etc). In John’s Gospel alone there can be found over 30 instances where Jesus said “my Father”. As we noted above, John devoted his entire Gospel to show that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God (20:31) - hence his continuous reporting of Christ calling God His Father. The personal testimony of God was that Christ was His Son (Matthew 3:17, 17:5). There is overwhelming evidence in Scripture showing that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.

Agree!

It would be far too much to comment upon in detail here. Suffice it to say that certain of the Jews regarded His claim as blasphemous (Mark 14:60-65 John 10:36). They said He was claiming to be God (John 5:18, 10:3033). It was this claim of Sonship that He was challenged with at His trial (Matthew 26:63, Luke 22:70).

Correct AND not him being God!

The Jews said His claims made Him worthy of death (Mark 14:64, John 19:7, see also John 8:56-59). Jesus was mocked for claiming to be the Son of God (Matthew 27:40-43). It was on this point of Sonship with God that Satan challenged Christ in the wilderness (Matthew 4:3-6, Luke 4:3-9).

The Pharisees and Jews did this throughout his ministry!

Peter, when confessing Christ to be “the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16), was told by Jesus that it had not been “flesh and blood” that had revealed this to him but His Father in Heaven (Matthew 16:17). Jesus said very clearly that He was the Son of God (Matthew 16:16-17, John 3:16, 5:25-26, 9:35, 10:36, 11:4, 19:7). At His trial he claimed to be the Son of God (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Luke 22:70-71). It was this claim that brought about the sentence of death against Him (Mark 14:64, John 19:7).

Agree.

The demons also addressed Jesus as the Son of God (Matthew 8:29, Mark 3:11, 5:7, Luke 4:41).

Known as illnesses today but yes!

The man in the tombs possessed of a devil also called Christ the Son of God (Luke 8:27-29). The Roman centurion said he believed that Christ was the Son of God (Mark 15:39). The disciples confessed Christ to be the Son of God (Matthew 14:33, 16:16, John 1:49, 11:27). Philip (the evangelist) explained to the Ethiopian eunuch that Christ was the Son of God (Acts 8:37). The first thing Paul taught after his 'blindness' was that Christ is the Son of God (Acts 9:20). Paul’s continuing theme was that God had sent His Son into the world to die (Romans 1:4, 8:3, 32, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 4:13 etc.). Not surprisingly, John's little letters, as does the book of Hebrews, constantly refer to Christ as the Son of God (1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12-13, 5:20, Hebrews 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29). That Christ is the Son of God was also the testimony of John the Baptist (John 1:32-34) – and so the list goes on.

I know many think that Jesus was God's Son only because of or since Bethlehem, but if that were true, then John made a serious mistake. He didn't even mention that! Imagine that.

No, Christ was begotten of God prior to mankind,

Nope!

walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, and spoke with numerous men and women of God since. Tell me. Who's Spirit spoke to men and women through the prophets?

You were doing so well Brakelite!

It's really just one step and it will fall into place

F2F

 

[face2face]

If it was false, you would've said so and it's not.

I said you are in a tight spot.

You didn't commit to saying it was the Trinity instead posting the verse.

I could press you harder on this but I'll give you time to think about the Elohim and angels.

Enjoy

F2F

 

[Magdala]

I said you are in a tight spot.

You didn't commit to saying it was the Trinity instead posting the verse.

If the answer was false you would've said so, but you didn't, because it's not, and thus I'm not in a "tight spot." The Holy Trinity is God: "Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden [...]" (Gen. 3:23)