Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[David in NJ]

1.) "And the Word, was God"..

2.) and that is "God manifested in the Flesh"

3.) as "The Word became Flesh'.. = JESUS

Now look at JOHN 1:10

4.) It says that JESUS "made the world".. and this is confirmed by : Colossians 1:16

So, GOD made the world, according to Genesis..and according to Colossians 1:16..... and Jesus made the World according to JOHN, who told you that the "Word was God"... Jn 1:1

See all that?
That is inescapable truth.....regarding the Deity of Christ.....but you can't see it, as you have been trained to not be able to see it....and not just you.

you have been trained to not be able to see it....and not just you

BINGO
and this is how heresies are formed



FYI - you can also be trained to see things that do not exist in Scripture = worship of Mary, pre-trib rapture

 

[ProDeo]

God then, through and for Prince Michael/Christ, created everyone and everything else (Heb. 1:1-6), teaching Prince Michael/Christ everything in the process (John 5:19-20).

After the war in heaven ~6000 years ago, we, along with Lucifer/Satan, were banished to the Earth for fighting against God and Prince Michael, and the rest of the angels of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9). All of us, except for Lucifer/Satan, agreed to be rehabilitated inside of these human animal bodies, which can feel both pleasure and pain, making it possible to teach us the difference between what is right/good/just and what is wrong/evil/unjust (Deut. 30:15-20).

Trying to understand what you are saying, sounds as if we all preexisted in heaven, we all joined the satanic rebellion and as a result we all were kicked out of heaven here on Earth?

Mormonism or Origen's preexistence theory?

Then began our sad history of continued disobedience here on Earth, regardless of how often or how severely we were punished. When we stopped listening to God (the small, still voice of reason inside of each of our minds, that some refer to as their "conscience"), God sent His Prophets to speak to us. When we stopped listening to them, God sent His Law to us IN WRITING, to remove any excuses of ignorance. And when we stopped reading, listening to and obeying God, His Law and His Prophets, God sent us His "only begotten" Son (the ONLY spiritual Son God alone made), to both redeem us from our PAST sins (Rom. 3:25), and to be a flesh-and-blood example to us that WITH God, ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26), i.e. we can and MUST return to keeping God's Law, for everyone's benefit. Anyone who teaches otherwise is the lowest of the low in God's Eyes (Matt. 5:17-19).

Do you mean we should keep the 6xx commandments of the Law again?

 

[David in NJ]

@Scott Downey

They lost their battle against the Truth and locked the 'Trinity' thread so i am responding to you here.


@Scott Downey says: "Somehow this has been hidden from some people's sight.....who have been blinded...."

They are blinded to this also:

Jesus said to them, I am the Way the Truth and the Life = 3

Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

If this were in Hebrew it would read as follows:
that if you confess with your mouth that Yahshua is Yaweh and believe in your heart that Elohim has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Layman question - how are the names of God and Jesus written in the Greek text, with or without capitals.

The Greek New Testament was originally written in all capital letters, with no spaces or punctuation.

 

[ProDeo]

I think you would do well to study "The Son of Man" for many months and then come back to me with this ancient knowledge. Only then could we see eye to eye.

F2F

In your opinion, is the Holy Spirit also not God?

 

[ProDeo]

No need to "force" anything-just read the Scripture-

Old Testament References to the Preexistence of the Messiah
Micah 5:2 (LXX)
"And you, Bethlehem, house of Ephratha, are few in number to be reckoned among the thousands of Judah; yet out of you shall one come forth to Me, to be ruler of Israel, and His goings forth were from the beginning, even from eternity."

This passage refers to the eternal origins of the Messiah, indicating His existence before His earthly birth in Bethlehem.

Proverbs 8:22–30 (LXX)
Often interpreted as a reference to the preexistent Wisdom, which many Christians associate with Christ:
"The Lord created me as the beginning of His ways, for His works. He established me before time was in the beginning..."

Though debated, early Christians saw this as a depiction of Christ as the eternal Wisdom of God.

Genesis 1:26
"Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness..."

The plural pronouns "Us" and "Our" are often understood as a reference to the plurality within the Godhead, with Jesus as the divine Word active in creation.

Isaiah 9:6 (LXX)
"For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us... and His name shall be called... the Angel of Great Counsel, Mighty God, Ruler, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come."

This prophecy of the Messiah affirms His divine titles, suggesting eternal existence.
New Testament Affirmations of Christ's Preexistence

John 1:1–3, 14
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was nothing made that was made... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

This passage explicitly affirms Jesus (the Word) existed eternally, was involved in creation, and became incarnate.

John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'"

Jesus identifies Himself with the divine name "I AM" (cf. Exodus 3:14), asserting His existence before Abraham and His divine nature.

Colossians 1:15–17
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible... and He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."

Paul describes Christ's role as preexistent Creator and Sustainer of all creation.

Philippians 2:5–7
"...who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men."

This hymn emphasizes Jesus' preexistence in the "form of God" before His incarnation.

Hebrews 1:1–3, 10
"In the past, God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets... but in these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son... through whom also He made the worlds... And You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands."

The Son is depicted as the agent of creation, affirming His existence before time.

Revelation 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Jesus' self-identification with eternal titles shows His preexistence and deity.

Summary of Themes
Jesus is explicitly identified as eternal and uncreated, sharing in the divine essence (John 1:1, Micah 5:2).
He is the agent of creation (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10).
He declares His existence before time, directly claiming divine identity (John 8:58, Revelation 22:13).
The Old Testament anticipates the eternal nature of the Messiah (Micah 5:2, Isaiah 9:6).

J.

Has there ever been a thread that discusses the following -

God the Father (Elohim)
God the Son (YHWH) appointed by the Father to restore the fallen creation and bring it back to the Father, per -

1Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
1Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Such a thread (is Jesus YHWH) entirely focused on that.

 

[ProDeo]

LOL.,,I found it funny, I wasn’t mocking, then I voiced my opinion.

I don’t need your amount of intellect SteVen as it’s embarrassing...you should be in the Spirit...not showing us how intellectual you think you are.

Ask God for his Spiritual thinking.,.because your own darn intellect is darn boring to read...as it’s from you and nothing spiritual in your intellect whatsoever.

You need to grow and mature more in the Spirit @St. SteVen ..imo.

You are stuck in your own intellect..my opinion.

How humble of you.

 

[ProDeo]

I did not ask you about your feelings. What do you, as a trinitarian, make of the absence of these terms?

Spiritual death can't be found in the Scriptures either and yet there is plenty of evidence for it, likewise for the Trinity, so your point is moot.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand the points JW's and others are making, in the end it is not convincing.

 

[ProDeo]

You cannot reason with God in becoming Born Again, it comes completely out of the blue, just like Jesus explains to Nicodemus, again the natural man won’t understand this, just like Nicodemus he didn’t understand what Jesus said, as he wasn’t Born Again.

Surely, but being born again means taking baby steps and grow and grow and grow, not keep walking in diapers and keep repeating that you are born again as an answer to about every question.

To consider : everyone in this thread is born again.

 

[Ritajanice]

Surely, but being born again means taking baby steps and grow and grow and grow, not keep walking in diapers and keep repeating that you are born again as an answer to about every question.

Can’t find diaper in the Bible..LOL.. . I’ve yet to see the meat of the word from you.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3American Standard Version (ASV) I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able; for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men?

To consider : everyone in this thread is born again.

I speak what the Spirit places on my heart.. if you don’t like it then pass it by.

John 3​

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King James Version​

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3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Ritajanice]

In your opinion, is the Holy Spirit also not God?

No he’s not...he testifies Of God?

How do we know of God if not by his Living witness?

Does God indwell your spirit?

Can’t find that in scripture @ProDeo ?..can you?

 

[Ritajanice]

Surely, but being born again means taking baby steps and grow and grow and grow, not keep walking in diapers and keep repeating that you are born again as an answer to about every question.

To consider : everyone in this thread is born again.

How humble of you!

 

[David in NJ]

It’s not in Gods word..that you can make yourself Born Of The Spirit.

Something you have yet to explain..not by keep posting other people’s work and commentary.

You too are stunted because you are stuck in your own intellect ..no growth in Spirit..

It’s not in Gods word..that you can make yourself Born Of The Spirit.

Dear Ritajanice
Your statement above is very much false and what you are doing is placing yourself above the Lord Jesus Christ.

Witness #1 - the Lord Jesus Christ
“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Witness #2 - the Apostle Peter
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

 

[Ritajanice]

Surely, but being born again means taking baby steps and grow and grow and grow

Grow and grow in what?

 

[Ritajanice]

God the Son

God the Son is nowhere to be found in scripture?

 

[MonoBiblical]

The Greek New Testament was originally written in all capital letters, with no spaces or punctuation.

I think it was cursive, but there is still no punctuation in an early cursive manuscript.

 

[David in NJ]

Careful of this poster dear readers-nothing between the ears and threads are locked because of her.

J.

There are two dynamics in scripture concerning this

Step 1 - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

If they do not listen

Step 2 - Titus 1:10-16

 

[Johann]

There are two dynamics in scripture concerning this

Step 1 - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

If they do not listen

Step 2 - Titus 1:10-16

Ditto.

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers - There are many persons who are indisposed to submit to authority (see the word unruly in Tit_1:6); many who are vain talkers - who are more given to talk than to the duties of practical religion (see the character of “Talkative,” in the Pilgrim’s Progress); and many who live to deceive others under the mask of religion. They make great pretensions to piety; they are fluent in argument, and they urge their views in a plausible manner.

Allegory can easily become reductionistic, but this need
not happen. For example, a character with the allegorical
name of Talkative is immediately recognizable to us: he is
someone who talks too much. But the Bunyan magic is such
VI

Foreword
that Talkative is simultaneously (a) a personality type, (b)
a social type (the overly talkative person who quickly becomes a social pest), and (c) a spiritual reality (someone who
substitutes talk for genuine faith and Christian action). Te
allegorical names of Bunyan’s characters should not lull us
into thinking that they are one-dimensional.

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

Dealing With False Teachers​

14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will

Rebuking Those Who Fail to Do Good​

10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”[c] 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure,but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

 

[ProDeo]

I speak what the Spirit places on my heart.. if you don’t like it then pass it by.

Yep, and the question for you to consider was ?

Hint, that maybe the folks in this thread do also?