Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[RedFan]

Study the Word without the dogma and you will see the beauty of Christ's prayer in John 17 and how he longed to see his Father for the first time.

It's all there is you care to look

F2F

Nothing in John 17 says that he would be seeing the Father for the first time. Verse 5 suggests the opposite.

 

[face2face]

When the Lord ascended Heaven for the first time not having seen His Father before what did he see sitting on the Throne? Was it a Father he could embrace? My mind boggles at the thought to their first meeting!

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” John 20:17

That verse is rather incredible in more ways than one!

F2F

Have you ever noticed the distinction in the Lords words? “Unto my Father”

Not “our Father”!

We are adopted sons Rom 8:15!

AND “Unto my God” -

And he (God) put all things under his (Jesus) feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. Eph 1:22–23.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! 1 Peter 1:3

What Trinatarians need is their doctrinal language (structure) reflected in the Apostles words and they just don't have it.

F2F

 

[Taken]

Study the Word without the dogma and you will see the beauty of Christ's prayer in John 17 and how he longed to see his Father for the first time.

It's all there is you care to look

F2F

Stay in context “of historical time”.
I said Before God was called the Father and the Lord was called Son or Jesus….the Lord was WITH God …. When the earth was being established, BEFORE mankind was created.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Have you ever noticed the distinction in the Lords words? “Unto my Father”

Not “our Father”!

We are adopted sons Rom 8:15!

AND “Unto my God” -

And he (God) put all things under his (Jesus) feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. Eph 1:22–23.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! 1 Peter 1:3

What Trinatarians need is their doctrinal language (structure) reflected in the Apostles words and they just don't have it.

F2F

Jesus always makes a distinction of not including Himself with humans calling God their Father….
Because humans came forth out of their habitat Earth
And
Jesus came forth out from God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[face2face]

Nothing in John 17 says that he would be seeing the Father for the first time. Verse 5 suggests the opposite.

John 17 is among many of the records which show Christ's yearning to be with His Father - if you can't see that maybe you should take another look!

“Glorify thy son” – God had already answered him!

Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” Jn 12:28.

Debating this complex section of Scripture is pointless with someone who fails to grasp its full depth and narrative.

The confusion you import into this text is insane!

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

Here is another @face2face

Matthew 27:45-50​

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King James Version​

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45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

 

[RedFan]

John 17 is among many of the records which show Christ's yearning to be with His Father - if you can't see that maybe you should take another look!

“Glorify thy son” – God had already answered him!

Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” Jn 12:28.

Debating this complex section of Scripture is pointless with someone who fails to grasp its full depth and narrative.

The confusion you import into this text is insane!

F2F

I agree with all of this, my friend -- but where are you distilling the notion that Christ was yearning to see the Father for the FIRST time? That comment of yours in Post #59 was all I was addressing.

 

[Taken]

Study the Word without the dogma and you will see the beauty of Christ's prayer in John 17 and how he longed to see his Father for the first time.

It's all there is you care to look

F2F

If you want chalk up historical knowledge and consideration and understanding FOR YOURSELF as being dogma….irrelevant to me….but stop trying to Gaslight me because your position has no merit.

 

[face2face]

I agree with all of this, my friend -- but where are you distilling the notion that Christ was yearning to see the Father for the FIRST time? That comment of yours in Post #59 was all I was addressing.

That's the tension in the record - you can't perceive this?

Paul captures that perfectly here:

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Heb 5:7

You and I know by forcing pre-existence and deity you destroy the narrative.

F2F

 

[RedFan]

That's the tension in the record - you can't perceive this?

Paul captures that perfectly here:

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Heb 5:7

You and I know by forcing pre-existence and deity you destroy the narrative.

F2F

I'm not forcing pre-existence. John 17:5 says what it says.

 

[face2face]

I agree with all of this, my friend -- but where are you distilling the notion that Christ was yearning to see the Father for the FIRST time? That comment of yours in Post #59 was all I was addressing.

What's interesting about this fact is so few T believers have every read the account in the reality of this light!

It's understandable to have push back

F2F

 

[face2face]

I'm not forcing pre-existence. John 17:5 says what it says.

You infer what it says - be honest Red!

The context is clear enough to show that Christ is not "Very God." His power and authority are derived, not inherent: "As you have given him {Christ} authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him." (John 17:2).

You lack the deeper insight into Christ that would allow you to fully understand the record, yet you impose your literal interpretations on the Word.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Also this is not an uncommon occurrence in the Scripture @RedFan

Jeremiah said “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jer 1:5.

This does not mean Jeremiah pre-existed only that like Christ he was in the mind of the Father.

F2F

 

[RedFan]

Also this is not an uncommon occurrence in the Scripture @RedFan

Jeremiah said “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jer 1:5.

This does not mean Jeremiah pre-existed only that like Christ he was in the mind of the Father.

F2F

Agreed.

 

[face2face]

Jesus always makes a distinction of not including Himself with humans calling God their Father….
Because humans came forth out of their habitat Earth
And
Jesus came forth out from God.

Glory to God,
Taken

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, Gal 4:4

Important for so many reasons none of which you would acknowledge as being true

F2F

 

[Taken]

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, Gal 4:4

Important for so many reasons none of which you would acknowledge as being true

F2F

Your Gaslighting is old, juvenile and boring.

I never denied Any Scripture as being Not True!

Is your position so weak it can not stand on its own merit without you deflecting to false allegations?

 

[face2face]

Your Gaslighting is old, juvenile and boring.

I never denied Any Scripture as being Not True!

Is your position so weak it can not stand on its own merit without you deflecting to false allegations?

If you cannot under the Lord as being the Son of Man how can you understand him as the Son of God?

 

[Taken]

If you cannot under the Lord as being the Son of Man how can you understand him as the Son of God?

You wondering and asking an irrelevant question makes it obvious you are not equipped with the ancient knowledge or understanding regarding the Lord, where He Was, What He was Doing, what He was Called (long before He was ON Earth and called the Son of Man or the Son of God,) to have have a worthy conversation with you.

 

[Taken]

Heb 13:
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Isa 9:
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called [/]Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[face2face]

You wondering and asking an irrelevant question makes it obvious you are not equipped with the ancient knowledge or understanding regarding the Lord, where He Was, What He was Doing, what He was Called (long before He was ON Earth and called the Son of Man or the Son of God,) to have have a worthy conversation with you.

I think you would do well to study "The Son of Man" for many months and then come back to me with this ancient knowledge. Only then could we see eye to eye.

F2F