Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[TheHC]

Did I share with you the conspiracy of Biblegateway? Verses with LORD capital, when you copy and paste them, they turn into lowercase Lord.

I wrote to them, assuming it was some kind of error. They deliberately confuse the 2 different words. That's how bad the IDOLATRY is; they think it is OK to change God's words.

Years ago, some trinitarian added the spurious text called the Comma Johanneum, 1 John 5:7, which is now recognized as fraudulent.
If some trinitarians are willing to go to those lengths, anything is possible.

And sensible mature reasoning just won’t work for those.

 

[Wrangler]

If some trinitarians are willing to go to those lengths, anything is possible.

A few years ago I devised a test of the length these IDOLATORS will go. The question is, what is more important:

A. Follow Christ?​

B. Get people to accept the trinity?​

Trinitarians would not answer, considering these 2 equally important. The first is our purpose in life (2 Corinthians 5:18) and as Biblical as it gets. The 2nd is found nowhere in Scripture and in fact, contradicts Scripture. These are not equal.

Being willing to prevent people from following Christ if B is not accepted as a pre-condition to coming to Christ is as far a length as one can go; the precise opposite of Romans 14:1 and Matthew 23:13. Satan must be so proud that legions adamantly put an insurmountable obstacle in getting people to follow Christ.

Jesus: Follow Me
Mark 1:17 (VOICE)

21 Times Jesus Said "Follow Me"

As a Christian for over 30 years, and a pastor for over 20, I'm passionate about following Jesus, and discovering exactly why and how I can follow Jesus more closely. Recently, I did a study of every time that Jesus uses the command "follow me," in the Gospels. So how many times did Jesus say...

www.newstartdiscipleship.com

 

[A Freeman]

The "trinitarian" doctrine was incorporated into "Christianity" by the Romans, who are the direct descendants of the Babylonians and the only race of people to destroy Solomon's Temple (twice) and crucify Jesus.

https://gibraltar-messenger.net/babylon-revealed/

This is Babylon

Brighteon.com is a leading online free platform that empowers free speech, allowing individuals to freely share videos and express their thoughts without any form of censorship. Join us today and be part of our community.

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Lucifer/Satan (the devil/liar) used his Roman Catholic church to invent the "trinity" for two primary reasons:

1) to create confusion and divert people AWAY from God and keeping God's Law; and
2) to dupe people into believing the LIE that God could EVER be subjected to human limitations (Num. 23:19) much less be killed (Matt. 10:28).

Of course Lucifer/Satan wants us to believe that Jesus allegedly was allegedly part of a 3=1 "trinity", and that only Jesus could keep God's Law, so that we continue to sin/break God's Law, i.e. commit crimes against God and one another (see: 1 John 3:4-10), until we join Satan in The Fire.

And of course Lucifer/Satan wants us to believe God can be killed, a LIE that he's been promoting ever since the war he started (Rev. 12:7-9), and continues to promote today.

It should be self-evident that if it's necessary to redefine dozens of words in Scripture (to be posted again below) in a vain attempt to hammer-fit an anti-Biblical doctrine/tradition into Bible verses that plainly state the exact opposite, then it simply isn't true.

Please, for all who have been duped by the satanic "trinity" doctrine taught by the institution (church/synagogue/mosque/temple etc. of all organized religions) and descendants of those who MURDERED Jesus, humbly consider the truth that is being shared with you is being done for the individual and collective benefit of all concerned. ONLY the Truth can set you free; free from illusions, free from oppression, free from injustice, free from both spiritual and physical poverty and free from the ignorance and arrogance that LIES espouse.

Peace be upon you.

 

[St. SteVen]

BTW, John 17 was a prayer to his Father, wasn’t it?

So Jesus couldn’t be the Father, could he?

Being one doesn't mean you are the same person. (united)

[

 

[A Freeman]

The practice of "legalese" is taking the meaning of common use words, and redefining them to mean something else, usually the exact opposite of what they actually mean, with the intention of deceiving others. This practice has been employed by the courts (and its attorneys and judges, etc.), and in the churches (by the priests, pastors, rabbis and imams, etc. of every organized religion on Earth, in every synagogues, mosques, temples, etc.) for thousands of years, to deceive and to control the minds of those who are unaware of this practice.

The following is a partial list of words or phrases that those who believe in a schizophrenic 3=1 triune god dishonestly attempt to redefine to make that religious superstition work:-

Appointed/Appointed One (God is NEVER appointed by anyone else to do anything)
Anointed/Anointed One (God is never anointed by anyone else)
Begotten (made/created, i.e. brought into existence, either from creation or in the case of humans, from procreation)
Born (God, who exists from everlasting to everlasting, can NEVER be described as "born", i.e. brought into existence)
Brethren (how could God have brethren?)
Creature (something that is created)
Father (a Father is the progenitor of the Father's Children)
Fellows (how could God have fellows?)
Firstborn/Firstbegotten (how could God be the first one brought into existence?)
Equal to (how could anyone be equal to God?)
Given (why would God need anyone to give Him anything?)
God (omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent at ALL times)
Godhead (described in 1 Corinthians 11:3)
Grace (doing something effortlessly, offering someone a grace period, etc.)
Greater than (which can never mean "equal to")
Heir (God obviously cannot be His own heir)
Image (likeness, when compared to the original)
Inheritance (how could God inherit anything He doesn't already possess?)
Invisible (not visible)
Made (created - there is no such thing as "begotten not made", because)
Man (humans)
Mediator (a liaison between two parties)
Nothing (which can never mean everything)
Of (originating from)
Omnipotent (all-powerful at all times)
Omnipresent (ever-present, at all times)
Omniscient (all-knowing at all times - see Matt. 24:36)
One (which means one, NOT 3=1 or 1=3 or anything other than one)
Son (the offspring of the Father, either created or, in the case of humans, procreated)
Son of God (the offspring created by God, Who is a Spiritual-Being - John 4:24)
Son of Man (the male offspring of a human, usually resulting from procreation, with one very notable exception)
The Head of (the Lord of, boss of, leader of, etc.)
The MOST High (there are NONE higher, nor equal to)
Three (which means 3, NOT 3=1 or 1=3 or anything other than three, e.g. see: Matt. 12:39-40)
Two (which means 2)
Visible (something that can be seen, i.e. that which is NOT invisible)

 

[CadyandZoe]

We can express the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (three “persons” in one God) as a set of propositions in this way:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

For simplicity’s sake we need consider only 1 through 4 (for 5 through 7 will stand or fall on the same logical analysis we apply to 1 through 4):

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.

The difficulty in defending the Trinity has always been that these four propositions are, as a group, logically inconsistent when analyzed from the standpoint of the three basic rules of logical equivalence: self-identity (everything is identical to itself, i.e., x = x); symmetry (if two things are equivalent, they are equivalent in any order, i.e., if x = y, then y = x); and transitivity (if one thing is the same as another and that other is the same as a third, then the first is the same as the third, i.e., if x = y and y = z then x = z). The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity fares ill in this analysis.

To make them logically consistent, it is tempting to sacrifice one of the four tenets – and most early heresies took this tack. Thus, Arius sacrificed the third one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
3′. Therefore the Son is not God.

and Sabellius sacrificed the fourth one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4′. Therefore the Father is the Son.

Both Arius’ argument and Sabellius’ argument are logically consistent because, unlike the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they satisfy all three of the aforementioned principles of logical consistency. Arius and Sabellius, although approaching the inconsistency from different perspectives, each preferred rationality to irrationality―even if it meant preferring heresy to orthodoxy.

Now, we Trinitarians have two choices. We can simply throw up our hands and declare that God does not have to play by the rules of logical consistency, thereby forever assigning the Trinity to the status of unfathomable mystery. Or, we can allow for identity and equivalence to be relative to their contexts. Thus, “Robert is good” can be consistent with “Robert is not good” as long as a different sense of “good” holds for each proposition (e.g., he is a good theologian; he is not a good golfer.)

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood. How to tease them apart is the ultimate challenge of orthodox Trinitarian theology.

Who want to take a deep dive with me here?

What is sameness?

Suppose I hear a choir sing "Hark, the Herald Angels sing." And as I listen, I follow along in the hymnal. Which one is the song? The vocalization of the song, the sheet music, or both?

Suppose my child and I are looking at each other in the mirror and I ask her, "who is that"? She says, "That's me!" And I ask her "Who is that? She says, "That is you daddy." Is she wrong?

These two examples illustrate the complexity of sameness.

 

[Taken]

Jesus explained @ John 17:22…

“I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

Jesus was revealing His accomplishment. “Just as” the Father and Son ARE ONE, (so are they who have the GLORY of God.)

Now that you’ve learned that you misapplied that verse, will you stop misapplying it?

You are drawing a blank…and trying to make your failure to comprehend a spiritual understanding my failure. It’s Not.

BTW, John 17 was a prayer to his Father, wasn’t it?

When Jesus IS speaking to God is Revealed….
It’s is a Lesson FOR humans (With the Glory of God to MIMICK.)

So Jesus couldn’t be the Father, could he?

(Unless he talks to himself.)

Talk to oneself? Absolutely!
If a man HAS the Glory of God “With or With-IN” him…
They HAVE;
* they have the Word of God IN their Mouth!
* they have the Power of God “ WITH “….TO Speak TO THEIR “ MIND “…To Trust Gods Word of Truth.
* they have the Power of God “ WITH-IN “ them…they Have The Power TO “ Make “ their Carnal MIND “Be Made” “ SUBJECT TO”….The Truth of God …”IN”…their “Born again spirit”…IN their Heart!

Difference…
The Word of God, The Power of God…ie. “WITH” a man “IS” a GOOD START on the Narrow Path….And Comes WITH a “WARNING”…
(There ARE…”powerful” fallen anti-Christ…angels, kings, parents, peers, people at large, who CAN influence you, threaten you, taunt you, pressure you, convince you to ABANDON you being WITH God, His Word, His Truth….and you HAVE the FREEWILL, at ANY Time….To REJECT Gods Word and SPIT His Word out of your Mouth…)

When A man….exercises his FREEWILL TO HAVE….Gods Word, Power, Glory “With-IN”…
It is ONCE….a man Makes That Request TO God.

ONCE God fulfills that mans REQUEST… By, Through, Of the Lord God Almighty…IS that Request fulfilled that that man will Forever Be With God, and Forever the Lord God will be with that man.

By…………..Gods Offering…
Through ……..Gods Word Jesus…
Of………………..Gods Power Christ…

Because From the thoughts (spirit) (truth) IN a mans HEART ( Not his Mind)…the man ONCE ask The Lord, for Gods Word, Gods Power, Gods Glory… TO BE WITH him FOREVER.

AND
Because God IS Faithful…HE Fulfills A Mans True, Genuine, Request.

You are welcome to Share your experiences…of;

With…Without the Lord God Almighty….
If You EVER freely chose…by, through, of The Lord God Almighty to Accept His Offering….and HOW Many Times…you asked, From your minds thought or hearts thoughts ?) He gave, and His Giving His Spirit With-IN you Failed you?
How many times you repeated such failed process?

Curious…

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[A Freeman]

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.

Mark 12:29-31
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The First of all the Commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord (NOT a 3=1 "trinity" - Deut. 6:4; Zech. 14:9):
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength and serve Him ONLY: this [is] the first COMMANDment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other COMMANDment greater than these.

According to Scripture...

God, Who has no beginning nor any end (Ps. 90:2), created Prince Michael/Christ FIRST (Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14).

God then, through and for Prince Michael/Christ, created everyone and everything else (Heb. 1:1-6), teaching Prince Michael/Christ everything in the process (John 5:19-20).

After the war in heaven ~6000 years ago, we, along with Lucifer/Satan, were banished to the Earth for fighting against God and Prince Michael, and the rest of the angels of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9). All of us, except for Lucifer/Satan, agreed to be rehabilitated inside of these human animal bodies, which can feel both pleasure and pain, making it possible to teach us the difference between what is right/good/just and what is wrong/evil/unjust (Deut. 30:15-20).

Then began our sad history of continued disobedience here on Earth, regardless of how often or how severely we were punished. When we stopped listening to God (the small, still voice of reason inside of each of our minds, that some refer to as their "conscience"), God sent His Prophets to speak to us. When we stopped listening to them, God sent His Law to us IN WRITING, to remove any excuses of ignorance. And when we stopped reading, listening to and obeying God, His Law and His Prophets, God sent us His "only begotten" Son (the ONLY spiritual Son God alone made), to both redeem us from our PAST sins (Rom. 3:25), and to be a flesh-and-blood example to us that WITH God, ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26), i.e. we can and MUST return to keeping God's Law, for everyone's benefit. Anyone who teaches otherwise is the lowest of the low in God's Eyes (Matt. 5:17-19).

The title of this thread really should be "exploring trinitarian ILLOGIC" because attempting to justify or worship a 3=1 deity is breaking the First and Most Important Commandment, upon which all of the others hang.

There is no "trinity". God is NOT the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33), which is exactly what the "trinity" teaches. It should be self-evident that God didn't divide Himself up into three separate but allegedly equal parts that aren't actually equal, so that He could pretend to have conversations with Himself, contradict Himself, and create an organized religion to teach people we allegedly have the freedom to do evil to one another (sin) with impunity.

Our heavenly Father and God is REAL, LOVING, MERCIFUL and LONG-SUFFERING, that we may come to our senses and stop fighting against Him and His Firstborn/First-created Son, whom Father has sent to us again, exactly as prophesied.

Father speaks to each and everyone of us every day, telepathically guiding us and warning us, IF we learn to listen to Him and DO His Will (learn to play nicely with one another). That is part of Christ's Mission here: to return us to spiritual converse with our Father and God, Who is also His (Christ's) Father and God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thank for responding. I don't see how "one" means "the unity of many in one." The meaning of "One" just does not carry that implication. Whether "God is one" is a numerical declaration or a substantive declaration, or both, either way it doesn't support your "meaning."

Trinitarians argue that God is one in his nature, his being, his "ousia" and that one being consists of three persons. God in three persons.

 

[Wrangler]

An application of logical syllogisms, proof by contradiction:

the LIE that God could EVER be subjected to human limitations (Num. 23:19)

Numbers 23:19 says more than that and I never grasped it until reading your post.

P1. Jesus is the Son of Man.
P2. God is NOT the Son of Man. (Num 23:19)
C. Jesus is NOT God.

The following is a partial list of words or phrases that those who believe in a schizophrenic 3=1 triune god dishonestly attempt to redefine to make that religious superstition work:-

You forgot a VERY important one. Death. Everyone knows death means the end of life. Trinitarians invent a new definition of this term to fit there doctrine, separation from God.

They reduce the sting of death to be like temporarily losing ones keys. Yes, the keys were separated from me but now they are returned. No biggie. Wrong! That Jesus died is the most important fact of the Bible and it demonstrably proves that he was NOT God.

P1. God cannot die.
P2. Jesus died.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

 

[A Freeman]

An application of logical syllogisms, proof by contradiction:



Numbers 23:19 says more than that and I never grasped it until reading your post.

P1. Jesus is the Son of Man.
P2. God is NOT the Son of Man. (Num 23:19)
C. Jesus is NOT God.


You forgot a VERY important one. Death. Everyone knows death means the end of life. Trinitarians invent a new definition of this term to fit there doctrine, separation from God.

They reduce the sting of death to be like temporarily losing ones keys. Yes, the keys were separated from me but now they are returned. No biggie. Wrong! That Jesus died is the most important fact of the Bible and it demonstrably proves that he was NOT God.

P1. God cannot die.
P2. Jesus died.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

Thank-you. Agreed. And yes, "death" wasn't on the list (although it was discussed in a previous post, i.e. the one pointing out that God cannot die).

There is the death of the human body (physical death) and the death of the soul/spiritual-Being in The Fire (aka "the second-death") which likewise are terms that most don't seem to understand very well. Hebrews 9:27 is frequently trotted out by those who don't believe in reincarnation, even though it is obviously referring to the death of the "self" rather than to the physical death of the body.

Jesus absolutely died from crucifixion, and was buried for three days and three nights, exactly as prophesied and as the Gospel accounts record. And it was Father (God) Who raised Jesus after three days and three nights, to show the world that spiritual life after death is a FACT rather than an empty promise.

 

[David in NJ]

Good Morning @TheHC @Wrangler @A Freeman

The GREATEST JOY a man will ever experience is knowing the Lord Jesus Christ in worship and in His love for you.

Jesus said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

This is a declaration of the True and Living 'Elohim(God)'= Pay attention to the Number 3 in scripture and if you lower your heart/mind/soul before the LORD, He will lift you UP to SEE things that no man can see unless the FATHER reveals it to them by the HOLY SPIRIT = 3

But if you harden your hearts in unbelief, you place your trust in men and falsehood.

 

[APAK]

The "trinitarian" doctrine was incorporated into "Christianity" by the Romans, who are the direct descendants of the Babylonians and the only race of people to destroy Solomon's Temple (twice) and crucify Jesus.

https://gibraltar-messenger.net/babylon-revealed/

This is Babylon

Brighteon.com is a leading online free platform that empowers free speech, allowing individuals to freely share videos and express their thoughts without any form of censorship. Join us today and be part of our community.

www.brighteon.com

Lucifer/Satan (the devil/liar) used his Roman Catholic church to invent the "trinity" for two primary reasons:

1) to create confusion and divert people AWAY from God and keeping God's Law; and
2) to dupe people into believing the LIE that God could EVER be subjected to human limitations (Num. 23:19) much less be killed (Matt. 10:28).

Of course Lucifer/Satan wants us to believe that Jesus allegedly was allegedly part of a 3=1 "trinity", and that only Jesus could keep God's Law, so that we continue to sin/break God's Law, i.e. commit crimes against God and one another (see: 1 John 3:4-10), until we join Satan in The Fire.

And of course Lucifer/Satan wants us to believe God can be killed, a LIE that he's been promoting ever since the war he started (Rev. 12:7-9), and continues to promote today.

It should be self-evident that if it's necessary to redefine dozens of words in Scripture (to be posted again below) in a vain attempt to hammer-fit an anti-Biblical doctrine/tradition into Bible verses that plainly state the exact opposite, then it simply isn't true.

Please, for all who have been duped by the satanic "trinity" doctrine taught by the institution (church/synagogue/mosque/temple etc. of all organized religions) and descendants of those who MURDERED Jesus, humbly consider the truth that is being shared with you is being done for the individual and collective benefit of all concerned. ONLY the Truth can set you free; free from illusions, free from oppression, free from injustice, free from both spiritual and physical poverty and free from the ignorance and arrogance that LIES espouse.

Peace be upon you.

Welcome friend to this CB site. I hope your stay is fruitful and you keep on preaching this way...wake up calls are always welcome...

 

[Wrangler]

And it was Father (God) Who raised Jesus

Trinitarians cannot accept this simple Biblical teaching, which is a salvation issue.

Romans 10:9
If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[A Freeman]

Trinitarians cannot accept this simple Biblical teaching, which is a salvation issue.

Romans 10:9
If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 4:10-12
4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarite, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
4:11 This is the Stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the Head of the Corner.
4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

It seems it's easier for most to divide by 3 than it is to count to three (three days and three nights).

 

[ProDeo]

Did I share with you the conspiracy of Biblegateway? Verses with LORD capital, when you copy and paste them, they turn into lowercase Lord.

I wrote to them, assuming it was some kind of error. They deliberately confuse the 2 different words. That's how bad the IDOLATRY is; they think it is OK to change God's words.

Layman question - how are the names of God and Jesus written in the Greek text, with or without capitals.

 

[David in NJ]

Trinitarians cannot accept this simple Biblical teaching, which is a salvation issue.

Romans 10:9
If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

@ProDeo

If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord............

unbelief is blinding

 

[APAK]

Layman question - how are the names of God and Jesus written in the Greek text, with or without capitals.

In the earliest Greek manuscripts, the name “God” (θεός) is not capitalized, as Greek did not have a distinction between uppercase and lowercase letters until the 9th century.

Jesus’ name is written as Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous), with a capital letter (Iota) and a horizontal line or stroke above it, indicating its sacred nature.

 

[Wrangler]

Layman question - how are the names of God and Jesus written in the Greek text, with or without capitals.

I’m probably the least fluent on ancient languages but your question is confounded. God has a name. It is Jehovah in English; in Hebrew the word is YHWH. In Hebrew the word that is substituted LORD to refer Adonai. The word Adonai refers exclusively to Jesus’ God.

Christ’s name in English is Jesus; in Hebrew his name is Yeshua. The word lord is used to refer to dozens in Scripture. In Hebrew, this word is Adoni.

I don’t know the Greek equivalents but you can look it up.

 

[Behold]

1.) "And the Word, was God"..

2.) and that is "God manifested in the Flesh"

3.) as "The Word became Flesh'.. = JESUS

Now look at JOHN 1:10

4.) It says that JESUS "made the world".. and this is confirmed by : Colossians 1:16

So, GOD made the world, according to Genesis..and according to Colossians 1:16..... and Jesus made the World according to JOHN, who told us that the : "Word was God"... Jn 1:1