Exploring Trinitarian Logic

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Eph 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Thanks.
This begs a question.
I have always viewed the sealing of the Holy Spirit to be
the indwelling that comes to all believers at conversion.
But Ephesians 1:13 uses the word "promised" similar to Acts 2.
Which refers to the outpouring. (the Baptism with the Holy Spirit)
See Acts 1:5. (below)

Ephesians 1:13-14NIV
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation. When you believed,
you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption
of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Acts 1:5 NIV
For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

[
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,599
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Eph 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Another non-responsive reply. Copy and paste in lieu of argument. The trinity is not in Scripture, PERIOD.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Another non-responsive reply. Copy and paste in lieu of argument. The trinity is not in Scripture, PERIOD.
The Triune ELOHIM can only be known by faith in His Word

Reject the Word that was God and you reject TRUTH and Understanding

Count to 3

1 - Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.
2 - This is why the ancients were commended.
3 - By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
4,051
2,604
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Another non-responsive reply. Copy and paste in lieu of argument. The trinity is not in Scripture, PERIOD.
Why argue? I don't care about the Trinity, I don't think you can define God like that, it's just a word that tries to explain something that can't be explained.
I just care about what I believe. I don't need a word for it
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
4,051
2,604
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks.
This begs a question.
I have always viewed the sealing of the Holy Spirit to be
the indwelling that comes to all believers at conversion.
But Ephesians 1:13 uses the word "promised" similar to Acts 2.
Which refers to the outpouring. (the Baptism with the Holy Spirit)
See Acts 1:5. (below)

Ephesians 1:13-14NIV
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation. When you believed,
you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption
of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Acts 1:5 NIV
For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

[
I think you are sealed when you are saved but the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience.
I've seen a lot of excess and questionable things so I understand why people shy away from it
 

christsavedme

Member
Jun 19, 2024
39
31
18
41
Berlin
Faith
Christian
Country
Germany
We can express the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (three “persons” in one God) as a set of propositions in this way:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

For simplicity’s sake we need consider only 1 through 4 (for 5 through 7 will stand or fall on the same logical analysis we apply to 1 through 4):

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.

The difficulty in defending the Trinity has always been that these four propositions are, as a group, logically inconsistent when analyzed from the standpoint of the three basic rules of logical equivalence: self-identity (everything is identical to itself, i.e., x = x); symmetry (if two things are equivalent, they are equivalent in any order, i.e., if x = y, then y = x); and transitivity (if one thing is the same as another and that other is the same as a third, then the first is the same as the third, i.e., if x = y and y = z then x = z). The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity fares ill in this analysis.

To make them logically consistent, it is tempting to sacrifice one of the four tenets – and most early heresies took this tack. Thus, Arius sacrificed the third one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
3′. Therefore the Son is not God.

and Sabellius sacrificed the fourth one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4′. Therefore the Father is the Son.

Both Arius’ argument and Sabellius’ argument are logically consistent because, unlike the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they satisfy all three of the aforementioned principles of logical consistency. Arius and Sabellius, although approaching the inconsistency from different perspectives, each preferred rationality to irrationality―even if it meant preferring heresy to orthodoxy.

Now, we Trinitarians have two choices. We can simply throw up our hands and declare that God does not have to play by the rules of logical consistency, thereby forever assigning the Trinity to the status of unfathomable mystery. Or, we can allow for identity and equivalence to be relative to their contexts. Thus, “Robert is good” can be consistent with “Robert is not good” as long as a different sense of “good” holds for each proposition (e.g., he is a good theologian; he is not a good golfer.)

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood. How to tease them apart is the ultimate challenge of orthodox Trinitarian theology.

Who want to take a deep dive with me here?

I found your exploration of the Trinity's logical conundrum fascinating, particularly the way you've laid out the logical tension reminds me of how the early Church fathers must have grappled with these concepts.

Historically what's particularly interesting is how the Church ultimately chose to embrace paradox rather than reduce the Trinity to purely logical terms. I've observed how human minds often struggle with holding seemingly contradictory truths simultaneously - it's something we see in many aspects of human experience, not just theology.

The solution you've proposed about context-dependent identity is quite elegant, and it reminds me of how we understand personal identity in psychology. Just as I can be simultaneously a therapist, a historian, and a friend - distinct roles that don't contradict my underlying unity as a person - perhaps the Trinity operates on an even more powerful level of this principle.

What I find most compelling is how the early heretics (Arius and Sabellius) demonstrate a very human tendency to resolve cognitive dissonance by simplifying complex truths. I see this pattern regularly - when faced with paradox, people often choose to eliminate one side rather than hold the tension.

The Church's insistence on maintaining all four propositions, despite their apparent logical inconsistency, might actually reflect a deeper wisdom about the limitations of human logic when approaching divine mysteries. It's rather like how quantum physics defies our classical logical frameworks - sometimes truth transcends our normal categories of understanding.

What are your thoughts on this psychological dimension of the Trinity debate? I'd be particularly interested in hearing how you think about the relationship between human cognition and divine truth.

P.S. Your point about context-dependent predicates reminds me of Thomas Aquinas's work on analogical language - perhaps we should explore that connection further?
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
4,051
2,604
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then why are you posting in this thread?

What's wrong with this definition, "there is one God, the Father?" 1 COR 8:6
Nothing if you read it in context
1Co 8:5 - For though there be-that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
Tools
Unchecked Copy Box
1Co 8:6 - But to us there is but-one God, the Father, of whom are-all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
9,899
7,170
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Thanks.
This begs a question.
I have always viewed the sealing of the Holy Spirit to be
the indwelling that comes to all believers at conversion.
But Ephesians 1:13 uses the word "promised" similar to Acts 2.
Which refers to the outpouring. (the Baptism with the Holy Spirit)
See Acts 1:5. (below)

Ephesians 1:13-14NIV
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation. When you believed,
you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption
of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Acts 1:5 NIV
For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

[
I believe we all receive the holy Spirit when we are born again. The baptism of the holy Spirit comes when we are completely surrendered to His working in our lives. The sealing however, that's a different kettle of fish altogether. I believe the sealing comes as a condition before the experience of the latter rain, the final outpouring of the holy Spirit must prior to the second coming. The final sealing comes when we have completely settled into all truth regarding the character of God, and those doctrines that reflect God's character, including the gospel, the way He has dealt with mankind through history, creation, and thy final eradication of sin and evil in His universe.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I found your exploration of the Trinity's logical conundrum fascinating, particularly the way you've laid out the logical tension reminds me of how the early Church fathers must have grappled with these concepts.

Historically what's particularly interesting is how the Church ultimately chose to embrace paradox rather than reduce the Trinity to purely logical terms. I've observed how human minds often struggle with holding seemingly contradictory truths simultaneously - it's something we see in many aspects of human experience, not just theology.

The solution you've proposed about context-dependent identity is quite elegant, and it reminds me of how we understand personal identity in psychology. Just as I can be simultaneously a therapist, a historian, and a friend - distinct roles that don't contradict my underlying unity as a person - perhaps the Trinity operates on an even more powerful level of this principle.

What I find most compelling is how the early heretics (Arius and Sabellius) demonstrate a very human tendency to resolve cognitive dissonance by simplifying complex truths. I see this pattern regularly - when faced with paradox, people often choose to eliminate one side rather than hold the tension.

The Church's insistence on maintaining all four propositions, despite their apparent logical inconsistency, might actually reflect a deeper wisdom about the limitations of human logic when approaching divine mysteries. It's rather like how quantum physics defies our classical logical frameworks - sometimes truth transcends our normal categories of understanding.

What are your thoughts on this psychological dimension of the Trinity debate? I'd be particularly interested in hearing how you think about the relationship between human cognition and divine truth.

P.S. Your point about context-dependent predicates reminds me of Thomas Aquinas's work on analogical language - perhaps we should explore that connection further?
EXCELLENT Post -ty

What provision has been afforded us by God whereby the solution of Reality that is beyond our human dimension of our brain/mind and the physical world which we live in can be known without knowing???
As well as the 'seeming' contradictive aspects of God being plural yet spoken of as singular???
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I believe we all receive the holy Spirit when we are born again. The baptism of the holy Spirit comes when we are completely surrendered to His working in our lives. The sealing however, that's a different kettle of fish altogether. I believe the sealing comes as a condition before the experience of the latter rain, the final outpouring of the holy Spirit must prior to the second coming. The final sealing comes when we have completely settled into all truth regarding the character of God, and those doctrines that reflect God's character, including the gospel, the way He has dealt with mankind through history, creation, and thy final eradication of sin and evil in His universe.
Jesus predicted that it would happen in Acts chapter two.

Acts 1:5 NIV
For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

[
 

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
2,871
1,257
113
70
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What are your thoughts on this psychological dimension of the Trinity debate? I'd be particularly interested in hearing how you think about the relationship between human cognition and divine truth.
I've been thinking about that a lot lately. Conceptualizing by analogy is what we humans look to do we cannot express a concept in human terms -- and the “stuff” of “Godness” is certainly on that list. But whatever that ousia may be, if it subsists in each of the three “Persons” within the Trinity, we can try to find an analogy for that.

There is a musical analogy, one I am indebted to Jeremy Begbie for. Think of a chord composed of three different notes, say the chord C major composed of the notes C, E and G. Each note is a sound, and when played together the C chord is likewise a sound. In each case the sound is recognizable as what we call “music.” By analogy of “deity” to “music,” each of the three persons, like each note of the chord, is deity (music), and together they form deity (music) through three distinct sounds (persons). But the real harmony is in the Trinity (chord). Played simultaneously, the individual notes comprising the chord are subsumed in a single identifiable sound; our ear does not immediately pick the chord apart (although we can do so intellectually, and on the sheet music). It’s just music to the ear. It’s just God.

I actually dislike the use of "persons" in the Trinitarian formulation, but that's another subject.
 
  • Love
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,937
5,689
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is a musical analogy, one I am indebted to Jeremy Begbie for. Think of a chord composed of three different notes, say the chord C major composed of the notes C, E and G. Each note is a sound, and when played together the C chord is likewise a sound. In each case the sound is recognizable as what we call “music.” By analogy of “deity” to “music,” each of the three persons, like each note of the chord, is deity (music), and together they form deity (music) through three distinct sounds (persons). But the real harmony is in the Trinity (chord). Played simultaneously, the individual notes comprising the chord are subsumed in a single identifiable sound; our ear does not immediately pick the chord apart (although we can do so intellectually, and on the sheet music). It’s just music to the ear. It’s just God.
I really like this analogy.
And I was thinking that the intervals used to make a major chord are the 1 (tonic) 3rd (major third) and the fifth (perfect fifth).
A minor chord is constructed the same way except the interval of a minor third replaces the major third.
(the minor third being one half step below the major third) But this minor change (no pun intended) gives the chord its sad flavor.
In that way you can hear how the individual parts work together to form a whole.

The whole really is more than the sum of its parts.

[
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: RLT63 and RedFan

TheHC

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2021
528
524
93
Columbus
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Fact IS:
Isa 66:
[1] Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:
No, “LORD” there - all capital letters - is not Jesus / Yeshua.
It is his Father: Yahweh / Yehovah / Jehovah, the “only true God” (John 17:3, Jesus’ words, not mine) who “sent” Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,358
14,801
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, “LORD” there - all capital letters - is not Jesus / Yeshua.
It is his Father: Yahweh / Yehovah / Jehovah, the “only true God” (John 17:3, Jesus’ words, not mine) who “sent” Jesus.

Knowing is ONE Thing…
Manifestation (seeing) is ANOTHER thing.

John 14:
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

* Some Know without Seeing that Jesus IS God.
* Some did Not Know when Seeing Jesus, they were Seeing God.
* Some DO NOT Know, Jesus IS the Father, iS God.

Some wanted to KILL Jesus because Jesus Claimed He and His father Are ONE and the Same God.

John 10: (Jesus’ claim)
[30] I and my Father are one.

Many Jews Response to Jesus’ Claim…??

John 10:
[31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
[32] Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
[33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Glory to God,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,599
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, “LORD” there - all capital letters - is not Jesus / Yeshua.
It is his Father: Yahweh / Yehovah / Jehovah, the “only true God” (John 17:3, Jesus’ words, not mine) who “sent” Jesus.
Did I share with you the conspiracy of Biblegateway? Verses with LORD capital, when you copy and paste them, they turn into lowercase Lord.

I wrote to them, assuming it was some kind of error. They deliberately confuse the 2 different words. That's how bad the IDOLATRY is; they think it is OK to change God's words.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: TheHC

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,358
14,801
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did I share with you the conspiracy of Biblegateway? Verses with LORD capital, when you copy and paste them, they turn into lowercase Lord.

I wrote to them, assuming it was some kind of error. They deliberately confuse the 2 different words. That's how bad the IDOLATRY is; they think it is OK to change God's words.

Tidbits.
In some transcriptions / translations/ transliterations of Scripture…
Gods “Name” is replaced with LORD, because “everything” regarding The Supreme Holy God, was believed to be TOO Holy to be in a corrupt mans mouth (word).

Scripture reveals…
Gods Name Once…(English) written, spelled JAH…
Pss 68:4
Often pronounced yahova or yaway…(As God was often called and referred to by His partial name…with status, character, works.)

Scripture reveals…
Jesus’ Name (5 times) (English) spelled JESUS…
Matt 1:21……….shall be named
* Matt 1:25…….was named
Matt 27:37……..written
* Luke 2:21…….was named 8 days old
John 19:19…...same written sign made by Pilot, Attached to Cross.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, “LORD” there - all capital letters - is not Jesus / Yeshua.
It is his Father: Yahweh / Yehovah / Jehovah, the “only true God” (John 17:3, Jesus’ words, not mine) who “sent” Jesus.
Far far more crucial then 'caps' are the words that describe for us who the Father/Son/Holy Spirit are.

Neverther less, caps can be alerting us to importance as we SEE in Revelation

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
 

TheHC

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2021
528
524
93
Columbus
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 10: (Jesus’ claim)
[30] I and my Father are one.
Jesus explained @ John 17:22…

“I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

Now that you’ve learned that you misapplied that verse, will you stop misapplying it?

BTW, John 17 was a prayer to his Father, wasn’t it?

So Jesus couldn’t be the Father, could he?

(Unless he talks to himself.)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ritajanice
Status
Not open for further replies.