Taken
Well-Known Member
I think you would do well to study the meaning of and learn the Understanding of “Relation-SHIPS”.
Me seeing eye to eye with You has never been on my radar.
Glory to God,
Taken
Exploring Trinitarian Logic
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I think you would do well to study the meaning of and learn the Understanding of “Relation-SHIPS”.
Me seeing eye to eye with You has never been on my radar.
Glory to God,
Taken
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Ritajanice
Born-Again
No need to "force" anything-just read the Scripture-
Old Testament References to the Preexistence of the Messiah
Micah 5:2 (LXX)
"And you, Bethlehem, house of Ephratha, are few in number to be reckoned among the thousands of Judah; yet out of you shall one come forth to Me, to be ruler of Israel, and His goings forth were from the beginning, even from eternity."
This passage refers to the eternal origins of the Messiah, indicating His existence before His earthly birth in Bethlehem.
Proverbs 8:22–30 (LXX)
Often interpreted as a reference to the preexistent Wisdom, which many Christians associate with Christ:
"The Lord created me as the beginning of His ways, for His works. He established me before time was in the beginning..."
Though debated, early Christians saw this as a depiction of Christ as the eternal Wisdom of God.
Genesis 1:26
"Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness..."
The plural pronouns "Us" and "Our" are often understood as a reference to the plurality within the Godhead, with Jesus as the divine Word active in creation.
Isaiah 9:6 (LXX)
"For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us... and His name shall be called... the Angel of Great Counsel, Mighty God, Ruler, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come."
This prophecy of the Messiah affirms His divine titles, suggesting eternal existence.
New Testament Affirmations of Christ's Preexistence
John 1:1–3, 14
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was nothing made that was made... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
This passage explicitly affirms Jesus (the Word) existed eternally, was involved in creation, and became incarnate.
John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'"
Jesus identifies Himself with the divine name "I AM" (cf. Exodus 3:14), asserting His existence before Abraham and His divine nature.
Colossians 1:15–17
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible... and He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."
Paul describes Christ's role as preexistent Creator and Sustainer of all creation.
Philippians 2:5–7
"...who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men."
This hymn emphasizes Jesus' preexistence in the "form of God" before His incarnation.
Hebrews 1:1–3, 10
"In the past, God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets... but in these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son... through whom also He made the worlds... And You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands."
The Son is depicted as the agent of creation, affirming His existence before time.
Revelation 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
Jesus' self-identification with eternal titles shows His preexistence and deity.
Summary of Themes
Jesus is explicitly identified as eternal and uncreated, sharing in the divine essence (John 1:1, Micah 5:2).
He is the agent of creation (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10).
He declares His existence before time, directly claiming divine identity (John 8:58, Revelation 22:13).
The Old Testament anticipates the eternal nature of the Messiah (Micah 5:2, Isaiah 9:6).
J.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Fantastic topic, thanks.
I'm late to the party.
Have we explored the problem of trying to apply logic from the physical realm to objects in the spiritual realm?
Perhaps you were aiming at it with this comment from the OP?
In my mind, that may be it. Anti-trinitarians are quick to use physical logic against the doctrine of the Trinity.
But ultimately, it doesn't apply. Since the godhead is from the spiritual realm.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
No deer.
Oh, wait...
See the deer?
There's a mommy deer, a poppa deer, and a baby deer.
[
Ritajanice
Born-Again
You can’t confuse me my friend.
God is singular.
gods are plural....there is only one God...who is our Spirit Father.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Strong's Lexicon
elohim: God, gods, divine beings, judges
Original Word: אֱלהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohiym
Pronunciation: eh-lo-HEEM
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Definition: God, gods, divine beings, judges
Meaning: gods, the supreme God, magistrates, a superlative
Word Origin: Derived from the root אֵל (El), meaning "god" or "power."
Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - G2316 (Theos): The Greek equivalent used in the New Testament to refer to God.
Usage: Elohim is a plural noun that is most commonly used in the Hebrew Bible to refer to the one true God, Yahweh, emphasizing His majesty and power. Despite its plural form, it is often used with singular verbs and adjectives when referring to the God of Israel, indicating a plural of majesty or intensity rather than number. Elohim can also refer to gods of other nations, divine beings, or even human judges, depending on the context.
Cultural and Historical Background: In the ancient Near Eastern context, the concept of a pantheon of gods was common, and the use of a plural form for deity was not unusual. However, the Hebrew Bible uniquely uses Elohim to affirm the monotheistic belief in one God who is supreme over all. The plural form may reflect the fullness of God's nature and His attributes. The use of Elohim in the Hebrew Scriptures underscores the distinctiveness of Israel's faith in one God who is both transcendent and immanent.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I don’t care what commentaries you post.
I stand on God’s word...there is only one God that we worship in Spirit and truth..God = plural.
You may as well give up, because I will never believe God is plural
What you post as in commentaries to me, is jargon and I don’t need to read it.
I have only one Living witness His Name in the Holy Spirit.
It’s like you are searching for Gods truth, through commentaries, I don’t need to do any of that.
I wait on God’s Living witness to bring me to understand God’s truth...not all these ( some) meaningless commentaries...only Gods witness makes sense to this gal.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
If that is true, I have a few questions.
Who are the individuals referred to in these two scriptures?
Genesis 1:26 NIV
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over
all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
Made in his image...not make them God.
Made in his image, doesn’t make us gods.. @St. SteVen
Become like one of us...can mean anything..I guess you can make it say what you want it to say..don’t make it Gods truth though..does it?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
If that is true, I have a few questions.
Who are the individuals referred to in these two scriptures?
Genesis 1:26 NIV
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over
all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
You said you stand on God's word. Did you mean the Bible, or something else?
I don't see you accepting what the Bible clearly says. ???
[
If that is true, I have a few questions.
Who are the individuals referred to in these two scriptures?
Genesis 1:26 NIV
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over
all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
It says "in our image", not in His image.
Can mean anything? It certainly means a plural. Otherwise it would have said "like me".
You said you stand on God's word. Did you mean the Bible, or something else?
I don't see you accepting what the Bible clearly says. ???
[
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Not three Gods.
One God in three persons.
We can't apply physical realm logic to beings in the spiritual realm.
1 Corinthians 2:13 NIV
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit,
explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[a]
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
With respect SteVen...you are far to still, in your own intellect.
I think you better ask God those questions....
What are you desperately searching for.?
You know that you are Born Again right...why don’t you just sit back and wait on the Spirit to reveal the truth of God’s word to your spirit.
I don’t desperately need to know answers..I walk in faith and trust that the Spirit will reveal all to my spirit.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
No desperation on my part. (that I am aware of)
I'm quite settled.
It has been interesting to discuss Trintarian apologetics.
I have never had to defend the doctrine to Christians before.
This was unthinkable previously. How could someone be
a Christian and not believe in the Trinity?
The creed and doctrinal statements of all the major denominations support it.
Then come these folks who declare it as illogical. Say what? - LOL
And now you think I am unsettled. Seriously?
Do you need more scripture?
I thought we had exhausted the arguments on your topic.
Don't tell me that you "stand on God’s word...",
when you dismiss the scriptures I bring.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Gen 1
[1] God CREATED
[2] the Spirit of God MOVED
[3] And God SAID
Gen 1
[26] God said, Let us
make man
in our image,
after our likeness:
Us, Our….IS ONE God…
CREATOR…Yehweh …Father….God
MAKER…….Jesus…….Son……..Lord
SPIRIT………Christ…….Power....Almighty
Rev 4:[8]
Holy, holy, holy
Lord God Almighty…
which was, and is, and is to come.
Glory to God,
Taken
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
If anything, a way to help you understand the Trinitarian mindset.
Can you clearly state the doctrine of the Trinity, so that I can know that you understand it?
I understand that Unitarian doctrine states that there is only one God.
Jesus is not God and the Holy Spirit is an emanation of the one God.
There is no person of the Holy Spirit. Did I get it right?
Your turn. (if you dare)
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