Exploring Anti-trinitarian Logic

[Hey You!]

I didn't say that anti-trinitarians believe that the Christ (Messiah) was naturally conceived by two human parents, but rather asked them to give their explanation for why He wasn't. So, again, if you have one, what is your explanation for why it was necessary that the Christ (Messiah) be the Word (Jn. 1:1), sent by the Father (Jn. 3:17;34;5:30;6:38;7:28-29;8:29;11:42;12:49;17:3;20:21;1 Jn. 4:9), and be begotten by the Holy Spirit and become human (indicating that prior to becoming human the Word preexisted invisibly and incorporeally), and born of the Virgin (Matt. 1:20, Lk. 1:31;35, Jn. 1:14), rather than be a naturally conceived human by two human parents?

The Doctrine of Paternal Traducianism explains it like this; Sin is Passed down through the Father, not the mother. This makes sense too, because in Nature it's the Father that passes down the Sex/Gender to the child. If Joseph were his father, Jesus would be Guilty of Original Sin...

 

[Magdala]

The Doctrine of Paternal Traducianism explains it like this; Sin is Passed down through the Father, not the mother. This makes sense too, because in Nature it's the Father that passes down the Sex/Gender to the child. If Joseph were his father, Jesus would be Guilty of Original Sin...

It's not that I'm asking because I don't know the explanation, if that's your impression of the purpose behind my question. I'm posing the question to anti-trinitarians because I'd like them to present their explanations for why, if they have one.

 

[APAK]

I erased those scriptures, they got posted before I finished. I'm sure that has happened to you.
Why not try to answer the questions? And reread my post. At the end I provide a scripture, Gen. 1:26
" Let us make man in OUR IMAGE".
Let me impose that scripture to support my questions. And as I said, angels did not create us, so Who is GOD referring to when God says OUR IMAGE?

Short answer...himself..and to bring in an outside source that will not bias my thought as much..

The Encyclopedia Britannica says Elohim means the 'plural of majesty' the God of Israel. It also says, ‘... When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, “the God,” and sometimes with a further identification Elohim ḥayyim, meaning “the living God.”

And further, it states, 'Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic. The Israelites probably borrowed the Canaanite plural noun Elohim and made it singular in meaning in their cultic practices and theological reflections.

 

[Magdala]

Short answer...himself..and to bring in an outside source that will not bias my thought as much..

The Encyclopedia Britannica says Elohim means the 'plural of majesty' the God of Israel. It also says, ‘... When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, “the God,” and sometimes with a further identification Elohim ḥayyim, meaning “the living God.”

And further, it states, 'Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic. The Israelites probably borrowed the Canaanite plural noun Elohim and made it singular in meaning in their cultic practices and theological reflections.

Or, the Israelites understood that God is one and trine. Now, @Ronald David Bruno didn't ask you about the word "Elohim", but rather the words "Us" and "Our". Again, in Gen. 1:26, God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness [...]", and in Gen. 1:27 it states that man was created by God in God's image and likeness, not created by any other, nor in any other's image and likeness. Therefore, the first-person plural words "Us" and "Our" in Gen. 1:26 can only refer to God. What is your explanation for why God spoke in the first-person plural? Additionally, do you have an explanation to the question posed to you in post #40?

 

[APAK]

Or, the Israelites understood that God is one and trine. Now, @Ronald David Bruno didn't ask you about the word "Elohim", but rather the words "Us" and "Our". Again, in Gen. 1:26, God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness [...]", and in Gen. 1:27 it states that man was created by God in God's image and likeness, not created by any other, nor in any other's image and likeness. Therefore, the first-person plural words "Us" and "Our" in Gen. 1:26 can only refer to God. What is your explanation for why God spoke in the first-person plural? Additionally, do you have an explanation to the question posed to you in post #40?

Are you awake today..?

I answered the question by using the word Elohim in the pluralistic sense. If you had bothered to understand it you would know that because of this word Elohim, it would be appropriate to use 'we' or us.' with it in the same sentence or of the same logical idea. Let us make them in our image is an extension of the usage of the word Elohim; they compliment each other. 'Let us' because I am the living God or Elohim.
Reread my reply post again, and hopefully a light bulb with be lit by you...maybe by someone else then you can see my point.

Some people...

 

[Hey You!]

Are you awake today..?

I answered the question by using the word Elohim in the pluralistic sense. If you had bothered to understand it you would know that because of this word Elohim, it would be appropriate to use 'we' or us.' with it in the same sentence or of the same logical idea. Let us make them in our image is an extension of the usage of the word Elohim; they compliment each other. 'Let us' because I am the living God or Elohim.
Reread my reply post again, and hopefully a light bulb with be lit by you...maybe by someone else then you can see my point.

Some people...

Awake! By ReverendRV * January 25

Ephesians 5:14 BSB; So it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

John Wesley and George Whitefield are famous for being involved in the first Great Awakening; this was a Revival which started in Europe and migrated to America. Wesley and Whitefield are the best example of two Christians who differed on something that the Church taught, but they were still able to serve God’s mission to Save the Lost. Whitefield was asked if he expected to see Wesley in Heaven and he said “I fear not, for he will be so near the eternal throne and we at such a distance, we shall hardly get sight of him”. John Wesley said practically the same thing about George Whitefield. Wesley preached at the funeral of Whitefield and lauded his life and his ministry. Though they had their differences, it was never enough for either to spoil the other. The truth is they agreed on the most important parts; for instance…

Wesley and Whitefield agreed that by the Law of Moses we become conscious of Sin. ~ Have you had another god other than the God of the Bible? Wesley and Whitefield had the same God, though opinions differed. Have you thought of God as if he winks at Sin, and overlooks such ignorance? That’s too much of a difference; God commands everyone to Repent. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people who tell Lies? Don’t wink at Sin and say, ‘human’? Let God be true and every man a Liar. Christians like Wesley and Whitefield will judge Angels; might they say of you that you’ve made a god to suit yourself? ~ These were only four of God’s Ten Commandments, if he judged you by his standard; would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you? God punishes Sin and Sinners with eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. ~ God commands everyone to Repent; but how??

Whitefield and Wesley agreed that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto Salvation. Wake up, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, and Christ will shine on you! ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal Life. Jesus Christ is the spotless Lamb of God that takes away the Sin of the world. He sacrificed his life by shedding his blood on a Cross to pay for Sins he never committed. His payment brought dividends; all who trust in him become the Righteousness of God. Jesus died, was buried three days but rose from the dead! We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and join a Church that has a heart for Lost Sinners, and teaches this Gospel. ~ The Great Awakening lead the West to be the center of the Christian world. God used men who could have just decided to argue about their differences, but no; these men put aside their disputes for the Glory of God and the increase of his Kingdom. ~ Let’s agree to agree…

Romans 11:13 KJV; And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

 

[Magdala]

Are you awake today..?

I answered the question by using the word Elohim in the pluralistic sense. If you had bothered to understand it you would know that because of this word Elohim, it would be appropriate to use 'we' or us.' with it in the same sentence or of the same logical idea. Let us make them in our image is an extension of the usage of the word Elohim; they compliment each other. 'Let us' because I am the living God or Elohim.
Reread my reply post again, and hopefully a light bulb with be lit by you...maybe by someone else then you can see my point.

Some people...

The word "Elohim" is grammatically plural, but often used in the singular sense. There's one singular God, and thus that word in Gen. 1:26 would've been used in the singular sense. So, why did the singular God speak in the first-person plural using the words "Us" and "Our"?

Additionally, I asked if you have an explanation to the question posed to you in post #40, but you didn't answer. So, is that your way of indicating that you don't have one?

 

[APAK]

The word "Elohim" is grammatically plural, but often used in the singular sense. There's one singular God, and thus that word in Gen. 1:26 would've been used in the singular sense. So, why did the singular God speak in the first-person plural using the words "Us" and "Our"?

Additionally, I asked if you have an explanation to the question posed to you in post #40, but you didn't answer. So, is that your way of indicating that you don't have one?

Ok, last time LM, what part of 'himself' do you not understand as I answered the question in the first place...?
.....
(Gen 1:26) God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
(Gen 1:27) God created man in His own image. In God’s image He created him; male and female He created them.
(Gen 1:28) God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth, and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
(Gen 1:29) God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food.
(Gen 1:30) To every animal of the earth, and to every bird of the sky, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food; and it was so.
(Gen 1:31) God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

In verse 26, God-Elohim of the plural, spoke to himself as he expressed his thoughts and his word as the plurality of majesty (and you still do not understand this expression apparently) with plural pronouns in verse 26...'us' and 'them'
In verses 1-26 and then in verses 27-31 he reverted back to his common usage of God-Elohim as a singular title, with singular objects of grammar like: his, I,

If you didn't catch my drift by now yo have no understanding of what you are asking, and thus surely have not answer for sure.

Like you oops, just stepped in with both feet in the mud...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That yet does not apply to me…

Not sure yet? There's hope then.

God “communicated” with and in Himself

I talk to myself sometimes. I'm never really alone though, God is with me
Glad you brought up the council of God. He is not confering with angels as if He needs their input. So what is the council of Hod if not the Triune God? Elohim

Psalm 82: God stands in the midst of Divipne Council ...

Jer. 23:18. But who has stood in the council of the Lord ...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

God is also one and trine: the Thought (the Father), the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit

I never heard the Father being referred to as "The Thought". Where is that in scripture? Is that from Platonian philosphy?

 

[Taken]

Not sure yet? There's hope then.

You were talking about a non-Trinitarians.
Addressing “them” to respond to your questions.
I said that (non-Trinitarian) does not apply to me…
However I responded to your 3rd question.
No, not hoping or can my belief in the Triune God change.

I talk to myself sometimes. I'm never really alone though, God is with me

Beautiful! Agree.
Gods desire is that His created angels and mankind beings would / will exercise their FREEWILL to BE With God Forever. ( or reject Him)

In 6,000+ years millions Have become secure that their Fate is to be With God Forever…Yet millions “compared to” billions of All Angels created and Billions of All of manKind ever Created…in totally Will Be Few forever With God.

Glad you brought up the council of God. He is not confering with angels as if He needs their input. So what is the council of Hod if not the Triune God? Elohim

Psalm 82: God stands in the midst of Divipne Council ...

Jer. 23:18. But who has stood in the council of the Lord ...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Short answer...himself..and to bring in an outside source that will not bias my thought as much..

The Encyclopedia Britannica says Elohim means the 'plural of majesty' the God of Israel. It also says, ‘... When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, “the God,” and sometimes with a further identification Elohim ḥayyim, meaning “the living God.”

And further, it states, 'Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic. The Israelites probably borrowed the Canaanite plural noun Elohim and made it singular in meaning in their cultic practices and theological reflections.

In the beginning, God's purpose for man _ the Gospel _ was hidden in the geneology from Adam to Noah. The Hebrew meanings of their names are revealing.
Adam > Man

Seth. > appointed

Enos. > mortal

Kenan. > sorrow

Mahalalel > the blessed God

Jared. > shall come down

Enoch. > teaching

Methuselah. > His death shall bring

Lamech. > the despair

Noah. > rest and comfort.

Man is appointed mortal sorrow ( the wages of sin is death);
The Blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing rest and comfort.

 

[APAK]

In the beginning, God's purpose for man _ the Gospel _ was hidden in the geneology from Adam to Noah. The Hebrew meanings of their names are revealing.
Adam Man
Seth. appointed
Enos. mortal
Kenan. sorrow
Mahalalel the blessed God
Jared. shall come down
Enoch. teaching
Methuselah. His death shall bring Lamech. the despair
Noah. rest and comfort.

Man is appointed mortal sorrow ( the wages if sin is death);
The Blessed God shall come down, teaching that His death shall bring the despairing rest and comfort.

Good, although I would caution you that having God come down is one thing, and he definitely did, although he came down into and live in his Son. And that does not mean his Son is God either. The Son is the instrument or method by which God communicated with us. And it is the Son a mortal, who died in stead of God. God cannot die...

 

[Magdala]

Ok, last time LM, what part of 'himself' do you not understand as I answered the question in the first place...?
.....
(Gen 1:26) God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
(Gen 1:27) God created man in His own image. In God’s image He created him; male and female He created them.
(Gen 1:28) God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth, and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
(Gen 1:29) God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food.
(Gen 1:30) To every animal of the earth, and to every bird of the sky, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food; and it was so.
(Gen 1:31) God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

In verse 26, God-Elohim of the plural, spoke to himself as he expressed his thoughts and his word as the plurality of majesty (and you still do not understand this expression apparently) with plural pronouns in verse 26...'us' and 'them'
In verses 1-26 and then in verses 27-31 he reverted back to his common usage of God-Elohim as a singular title, with singular objects of grammar like: his, I,

If you didn't catch my drift by now yo have no understanding of what you are asking, and thus surely have not answer for sure.

Like you oops, just stepped in with both feet in the mud...

In Gen. 1:26, the author of Genesis said the part "God (Elohim) said [...]", and they would've used it in the singular sense as they were referring to the one singular God. God is the one Who spoke in the first-person plural by saying, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness [...]". If God isn't one and trine, then what is your explanation for why the one singular God spoke in the first-person plural, rather than in first-person singular?

Additionally, I asked if you have an explanation to the question posed to you in post #40, but you didn't answer. Then, I asked you if that was your way of indicating that you don't have one, and you didn't answer that either. Therefore, you've given the impression that you don't. You should probably find out the explanation, because that's something you should know.

 

[Magdala]

I never heard the Father being referred to as "The Thought". Where is that in scripture? Is that from Platonian philosphy?

It's from Jesus, the Word Himself, the Son, Who referred to the Father as also "The Thought" in His dictations to Maria Valtorta.

 

[Grailhunter]

Anti Trinitarian logic has the same problem that any other Anti Orthodox belief has; it holds to an Either/Or stance instead of a Both/And stance. This is what has to be proven; can a Both/And position can be True? If it can, then Monotheistic Trinitarianism should be given a fair shake...

If it cannot be proven, then we should vehemently deny that in Marriage; it's True in any sense of the Term that "The Two shall become One "...

Orthodox….Anti Orthodox….Biblical….Early Christian as in after the biblical period….Where is truth?

 

[Grailhunter]

In Gen. 1:26, the author of Genesis said the part "God (Elohim) said [...]", and they would've used it in the singular sense as they were referring to the one singular God. God is the one Who spoke in the first-person plural by saying, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness [...]". If God isn't one and trine, then what is your explanation for why the one singular God spoke in the first-person plural, rather than in first-person singular?

Additionally, I asked if you have an explanation to the question posed to you in post #40, but you didn't answer. Then, I asked you if that was your way of indicating that you don't have one, and you didn't answer that either. Therefore, you've given the impression that you don't. You should probably find out the explanation, because that's something you should know.

By Yahweh's own words....Elohim is singular.....Dozen or so.....I am the only God and there is no other. Such is in ancient languages words can hold different means depending on the context.

 

[Magdala]

By Yahweh's own words....Elohim is singular.....Dozen or so.....I am the only God and there is no other. Such is in ancient languages words can hold different means depending on the context.

There is one single God Who is trine, meaning He is threefold in forms, effects, and powers.

 

[Grailhunter]

There is one single God Who is trine, meaning He is threefold in forms, effects, and powers.

The Trinity is not represented in the Old Testament by Yahweh’s own words. One God and no others??
Yahweh and Yeshua do not mention each other Old Testament.
No event is attributed to Yeshua by name in the Old Testament.
What would you call Yeshua in the Old Testament….the Son of God….Yeshua was the begotten Son of Yahweh in the New Testament….getting the cart before the horse?

 

[Magdala]

The Trinity is not represented in the Old Testament by Yahweh’s own words. One God and no others??
Yahweh and Yeshua do not mention each other Old Testament.
No event is attributed to Yeshua by name in the Old Testament.
What would you call Yeshua in the Old Testament….the Son of God….Yeshua was the begotten Son of Yahweh in the New Testament….getting the cart before the horse?

The one single God being threefold in forms, effects, and powers doesn't mean three separate gods.

When the Word was incarnated and became human that was when He was named "Jesus". Prior to that, the Word wasn't human, but rather incorporeal and invisible, which is why you don't read that name in the Old Testament.