How do YOU know when a revelation that someone claims as being from the Spirit of Truth which has no origin in the scriptures or the bible actually is from God?
Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed
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Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
According to your interpretation of John 3:16, God failed in His mission to save the world. So with all dure respect I detest such a god, I reject him as a loser and a liar and a two faced traitor.
So according to you God, first attempted to save the world and after He failed in His mission, He had to go and cast the vast majority of those He tried to save into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity. So not only is he a loser, but he is also an eil monster who takes pleasure in torturing those he failed to save.
I could never have any respect for such an evil monster god like that. I have n idea why you would believe in such a devil god to begin with, but I guess it's each to their own god.
Dear One 2 question,
For me, it overjoyed me when Christ revealed the truth that He truly is the Savior of all mankind and that salvation is a free gift. Each person of mankind merely has to wait until Christ decides to give them the free gift. Those who are blessed are receiving their salvation in this age. Those who are not blessed must wait until the final age.
I have posted with many people on various forums who actually hate the idea that Christ will save everyone in "due time" (1Tim 2:3-6). Since those people believe that it was by their own "free will" decision to accept Christ that they were saved, they don't want to feel less special if everyone will eventually be saved, too.
I've actually had a few people on the forums tell me that if everyone is going to be saved, then why are they trying their best to live a sinless life. They then ask "why shouldn't I just go out and have as much fun in life as the rest of mankind does since everyone is going to be saved anyway?"
This type of statement only shows that they are not converted & saved but are trying to follow the law by their own works. And because they believe that it was by their own works (confession of faith and doing good works) that they were saved, they feel that they have earned their salvation - rather than it being a free gift from Christ. However, when a person is converted, they will only want to follow the ways of Christ because the full measure of the Spirit (both Early and Latter Rains) within them has changed their heart and mind to do so. They hate sinning and living as the people of this world do. They only want to be like Christ.
Joe
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I will doubt it until such time as God confirms it personally to me. Either way, it won't affect my salvation. And it's importance, whatever it may be, will never exceed the least important truth revealed already in scripture.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
What interpretation? I merely quoted the scripture, then asked some questions. I made no statement nor offered an opinion. The questions...
were in response to your statement...That's why God doesn't love any man.
My questions i believe are quite justified.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The above is entirely unjustified. You do not know me, and are judging me arbitrarily upon no evidence whatever. I resist your accusation utterly.
Little wonder there are some here wondering where the love is on this forum.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Very true, and most Christians are asleep to the danger and it's effects to say the least ..
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Yeah, no-one is born elect, so we have the passed-on elect, the present elect, and the future elect who have yet to receive Christ.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
If your interpretation of of (1 Tim 2:3-6) is correct, then it means that God is a liar.
I don't believe that God is a liar, so it means you're interpretation is false. If you want to know what those verses are actually saying, you need to lay aside your religious bias and consider the verses in their intended context.
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
Let's consider who the "all men" is referring to in the verses. The Greek word translated “all people” can mean all kinds of people — leaders, followers, rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, and so on.
This interpretation makes good sense, as Paul lists a certain class of people — rulers — when he tells us to pray for “all people” (1 Tim. 2:1–2). God’s desire for the salvation of all “means…there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation.”
There is no doubt that your interpretation makes God a liar because it contradicts what God said in so many other places. We see Jesus casting people into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity in,
Matt 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Can you now see that you're are making God a liar if you hold to this Unbiblical Demonic Doctrine of Universalism. You can only hold to that position if you believe that God is a liar who contradicts Himself.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
OK, so now you admit that you don't know what John 3:16 is saying. You only quoted it because it sounds good to your itching ears and it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, don't about what the meaning of verses is. Do you just pluck the feel good verses out of Gods Word and ignore those which expose your false theology?
God does not love any individual man, God only loves Himself. So those of us who are in the Body of Christ are loved as a body and not as individuals. Apart from that, I don't see what there is to love about filthy stinking rags. Perhaps you can tell me, then we will both know.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
I'm not judging you as an individual at all, I used to believe the exact same false gospel you believe. So I would be a hypocrite to judge you, I'm only trying to show why the gospel that teaches Universalism is unbiblical and false. It contradicts God in hundreds of verses, so the only way to run with it is to accept that God lied in all of those hundreds of verses.
Yes, the elect are blessed in this life in this physical body and in the eternal state when Father comes to this renewed earth with His new City.
Yes, after this, who knows exactly when, but all those not previously elected will repent and the blood of Christ will wash away their sin. They will be saved from spending any more time in the lake of fire and be reconciled to God. Yay!
Yet there's the purpose God chooses those refered to as the elect. They are elected for the purpose of serving as ministers, kings, priests in Jesus Christ's 1000 year kingdom. Here's the vital link between this current age and the coming age when Father comes to dwell on His planet earth.
Christ, along with the few chosen elect will give this planet a cleanup in readiness for Father's grand entrance. It looks like 1000 years will do it.
We glorify and praise our Father and what He does hey, not people. Our Creators deserve it not us.
Fun! Is that what people call it, engaging with the world trying to extract momentary self gradifying pleasures only to find it meaningless and empty. This generation is becoming more and more addicted to the 'fun' drug. The problem is, the more they get a bit (a hit) the more they crave for more and greater highs.
Give me JOY anyday! Joy in serving others. Joy in discipling others and seeing them become servants of all. Joy in knowing these are the greatest in the kingdom of God, the elect.
Yes, we, along with the elect are being transformed in the true likeness of our Creators just as we were designed and created to be.
'it won't affect my salvation'
I've heard this statement numerous times. What do YOU mean when you use it?
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
If your right than God lied when He said >>>>>>>
Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Don't forget to study why everyone needs to be born again.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture shut up all under sin, so that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Eph 2:1-3 And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, (2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience; (3) among whom we also had our way of life in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
Thank you for these verses, which all confirm that God elected to save His people before He created the world. He wrote every one of our names in His book. Those who's names are not written in His book will never be saved.
I love Romans 3:23 as it confirms that that we are all born with a sin nature, as such none of us can ever chose to serve God because we can change our nature. Only god can change our nature by causing us to die and giving us a new life when we are born again. He only does this for His elect.
I love Galatians 3:22 because it confirms that the gift of faith is only given to those who believe (the elect). The rest will never believe because they were not elected to salvation.
I love Ephesians 2:1-3 because it confirms that we were all dead in out trespasses and sin. Dead people can do nothing, let alone believe something as foolish as the gospel. So the only people who are made alive are the elect of God, He raises us from the dead while He leaves the rest in their dead state.
Thanks for choosing verses which confirm the bible doctrine of election to salvation.
Dear Christian Soldier,
First of all, your translation of 1Tim 2:3-6 is incorrect. The scripture is correctly translated as "will have". When the scripture is translated as "desires", the scripture makes no sense. A desire is an emotion and can be proven to be true in the present because it does not require anything to be accomplished in the future. But when it is translated as "will have", something must be accomplished and when it is, it can be "testified" to have happened as the scripture says it will be.
But even if the scripture is translated as "desires", do you not know that Christ will achieve all His desires? Christ is not like mankind who frequently fails. Christ is our all powerful God who never fails:
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.
2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Also, there are many other supporting scriptures which teach that Christ will save all mankind. There are ZERO scriptures that state differently. The scripture you quoted is only teaching about the people (most of mankind) who were not chosen the be saved in this age. They will be judged by the Law (punished) in the next age. The Lake of Fire is only a symbol for Christ's judgment. It is not literal fire and it is not "for ever and ever" (it should say "for the ages of the ages).
Also, verse 46 is incorrectly translated. It should read as follows: "And these shall go away into age-during punishment: but the righteous into age-during life".
One of the rewards of the Elect is to have life during the ages. Verse 46 is merely comparing the difference between the two groups as this scripture also does:
1Cor 3:13 Every man's work (all mankind) shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (the Elect/life during the ages). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (the rest of mankind/life at the end of the final age): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (the Lake of Fire).
Consider what Paul says here:
Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many (all men) have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many (all men) will be constituted righteous.
Then to make it even clearer, Paul says it this way, too:
1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
All mankind has died in Adam and it is that same "all" who will be made alive in Christ. No one is left out. Only by saving all mankind can God then be "all in all".
After all mankind has been saved by Christ, Christ's reign will come to an end and the Kingdom of Heaven will be delivered up to the Father. This is when the "due time" arrives in 1Tim 2:3-6 and is the event which testifies to the truth that all mankind as been saved.
Also, when Christ administers the Law to the "lost" in the final age, He will NOT omit justice, mercy and faith when He judges them.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Before the "lost" perish (the penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them by giving them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. With the full measure of the Spirit, the "lost" will have faith and be born again. The new child of God will then be gathered up to heaven. The child of the devil will remain in the Lake of Fire until he perishes. This will satisfy justice.
This judgment event in the Lake of Fire is described in Joel 2:1-27.
Consider these other verses on Christ's judgment:
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.
Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
Do you understand "conversion?
This is conversion:
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
The marred vessel is mankind who sins and are children of the devil. Because mankind has sinned, they are ALL "condemned already":
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned (the new vessel/children of God): but he that believeth not is condemned already (all mankind/children of the devil), because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
After Christ finishes converting the last person of mankind in the final age, all mankind will cease to exist but the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.
Joe
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
I'm not reading any further since that wasn't the discussion I entered into. No-one is born saved.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
Dear friend, it is obvious to me that you have rejected everything God said in the verses you cited. You have added your private opinion to them and you consistently add or take away words to every verse. My Bible tells me that Gods casts those who do what your doing into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity.
I'm sure that your not adding these words of yours in (brackets) to Gods, by accident. You're deliberately doing in blatant disregard of Gods warning against doing such an evil thing. You obviously have no fear of the Lord, and no reverence towards His Word.
I personally never felt the need or desire to add or take away from anything God said, because I believe God is not so retarded or handicapped that He needs me to complete what He was trying to say. Likewise He doesn't need me to remove errors from what He said.
I can't understand why you feel the irresistible urge to go and butcher everything God said.
I notice you avoided the elephant in the room and ran straight passed it, to talk about an undisputed portion of scripture while ignoring the charges I bought against you. I pointed out that your opinion doesn't line up with what God's Word says. I showed you what 1 Tim 2:3-6 is saying in the context of what Paul was saying. But you ignored that and talked about a bunch of unrelated scriptures, in a vein attempt to muddy the water.
Nobody is arguing about the meaning of "will have" or "desire". The question was, who was Paul referring to when he said that. You claim he was referring to everyone who ever lived, but as you rightly pointed out Gods will is always fulfilled. So then according to you God is going to save everyone who ever lived. This ludicrous notion is not supported by ay scripture at all, it's just in your wild imagination.
You trash what Jesus said about judgement day, He said they are cast into the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. But you go and twist it to mean they just go for a holiday for a while like a kid going to the naughty corner for a while. That's utterly insulting and disrespectful to the Lord.
You say the reign of Christ will come to and end, but He said He will reign for ever and ever.
So you force me to take sides and expose one of you as a liar. Why o why do you do this to yourself, why heap up coals of fire on your head when it so unnecessary.
Rev 11:15
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
Nobody suggested that we are born saved, I simply made the point that God Himself made. That is that only the elect will be saved and the rest will be left in their sin and they can never be saved. This is exactly God said throughout the Bible, you have to be blind to miss this truth.
I'll make it simple for you, everyone is born dead in trespasses and sin, as such dead people can do nothing and if God leaves us dead we stay dead if He quickens us to life we are given a new life and saved from death. I find it amazing that people can't understand the simple Word of God.
Only Gods elect are saved, He saved us before He created the world but we don't know this until we are regenerated and our spiritual eyes are open, but from Gods perspective it was a done deal before time began.
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