Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[PinSeeker]

No promise is greater than another.

You misunderstand. I agree that no promise of God is greater than another in this wooden sense. But rather, "lesser" (in quotes) in that it is not the full manifestation of the one ~ "greater" in this sense, of full manifestation ~ Promise.

Consider this: This is covenantal thinking, which is the language of our Covenant-making God. We have the lesser covenants, the covenant of life, made first with Adam (therefore Adamic) and then remade with Noah (therefore Noahic), the covenants of land and a people, made with Abraham (therefore Abrahamic), the covenant of the law, made with Moses (therefore Mosaic), and the covenant of kingship (therefore Davidic). All these covenants were of great importance, and had not woodely "lesser" but very, very important, even spiritual implications in the lives of the ancient Israelites. And in this way, all of these covenants pointed to ~ were lesser manifestations of ~ the one everlasting Covenant, the true manifestation to come which contains all the lesser cumulatively, Jesus, Who IS life (as He says), with whom we will be co-heirs of the true Promised Land, the earth with all the people of God, and Christ Jesus IS the Law made perfect (this is what Paul is referring to when he refers to the Law of Christ), and Jesus ~ of course ~ is our true, forever King.

The greater was always ~ always ~ in effect, and always will be. The lesser is a tutor of sorts, a guardian ~ which is exactly the language Paul uses in Galatians 3 regarding the Old Testament Law ~ pointing to, instructive of the greater ~ which specifically regarding the Law is the Law of Christ. You know what the writer of Hebrews says, that "...on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant" (Hebrews 7:18-22). Again:

David, the king of Israel appointed by God in those days of old, is the lesser king (pointing to, representative of the greater, true King to come, King Jesus); in this way, David is a "shadow," a "type" of Jesus.

And David is king of physical, ethnic, so lesser (pointing to, representative of the greater, true Israel ~ "the city..." (actually a people, in the same sense that Christ's Church is a people) "...that has foundations..." (the true Foundation of which is Jesus) "...whose Designer and Builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10) ~ to come, which is all of God's people, His elect, the Israel of God.

I am not part of the one nation though. to whom the promise was given.

Well, not lesser Israel, but greater Israel, the Israel of God, you surely are, as am I. Since we are in Christ, we are all children of the promise, counted as offspring, and thus children of God.

It was not given to me...

As a Gentile, not originally, no, but now, since we are one in Christ Jesus... :) ...all God's true promises are yours just as much as they ever were those to whom they were originally given.

I have no right to that claim...

Yes you do; God has given it to you. Paul says it, as I have cited a couple of times at least: "(we) Gentiles... were at (one) time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world... (b)ut now in Christ Jesus (we Gentiles) who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ... no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God..." (Ephesians 2:11-22).

Romans 9 is about Israel.

Yes, but greater Israel, all of God's elect ~ so the Israel of God ~ and not lesser, ethnic, physical Israel.

Not about God hating some baby before he was born and condemning that baby to hell without even giving him an opportunity to repent.

Age has no relevance. A person being one of God's elect has no age limitation. God can remove the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh... and therefore be that person's God... at any age, even while still in his or her mother's womb... which is to say that even stillborn or ~ GASP ~ aborted babies can ~ possibly, if it is God's will ~ go to heaven. This is a rhetorical question, SI, but would you presume for yourself what God's justice should or should not be? If so, I would answer to that in Paul's words at the end of Romans 11:

• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?' ... To Him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36)

There is no proof Esau will not be in heaven...

I would say that God's statement that "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" is all the proof we need. We have no evidence that God removed Esau's heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh, or that he was born again of the Spirit.

yet fatalists think he was predestined (born) to be sent to hell.

Maybe so, but neither John Calvin nor true Calvinists like me would be among that number, whatever it might be.

...if you really study it, you would see it in a new light.

Right back atcha, EG. Although... all these things are spiritually discerned, so if one can do all the studying in the world, but if the Spirit does not give understanding of these things ~ which does not necessarily mean the person is not a Christian or does not have the Spirit ~ then he or she will not have, in this life, understanding of these things. Knowledge and wisdom too are gifts of the Spirit...

I actually taught on romans 9 in my church...

Hmmm... Well, I'm sure with both know what James says about those who might teach... And teaching is also a gift of the Spirit...

I started out giving the fatalistic view (if looks could kill I would be dead) halfway through I made the comment, is this really what Paul is saying, And I went back and started over.

Well good. But mischaracterizing John Calvin's ~ and that of true Calvinists like me ~ as fatalistic is not good... :)

...giving it from the view I have been talking about...

Uh-oh... :)

. and the passage made more sense, it flowed better...

Hmmm, probably was more pleasing to itching human ears, in the sense of what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3...

I can't make it flow using the fatalistic view...

Good, well, neither can I, nor would I presume to.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[One 2 question]

But Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and his 12 sons and all their offering in all generations was never promised the new jerusalem. I am just going off what they were promised.

Fair enough. I guess John may have not seen what he thought he saw or heard what he thought he heard.

Rev 21:9&10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Rev 21:12-14 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I think the book of Revelation was in heaps of doubt whether it should be included in the Biblical canon anyway. So maybe it isn't legitimate and should not to be relied upon as being from God.

What do you think?

 

[PinSeeker]

No

Yes. :)

Israel has always been complete.

Ah, so no longer is there anyone out there who will but have not yet come to Christ.... Hmmm... :)

According to Scripture, God's completion of Israel is what will prompt the return of Christ. So, if what you say here is so, then why hasn't Jesus come back yet, and executed the final Judgment, and ushered in the New Heaven and New Earth? :) Or even... why was there ever anything else? :) Why has Jesus not been here physically with us even before and since... Genesis 3? :) More rhetorical questions; sorry... :)

He was aching for his brethren in the flesh. that they would come to Christ, knowing at this time, so many had and still to this day reject their messiah.

That's... literally what I just said.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.


This is physical Israel.

No it's not... :)

No gentile is included...

Yes they are; quote the entire passage and it cannot be credibly denied: "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

For my sake 9the gentile believer or really the church) they are my enemy, concerning the gospel.

For your sake as a Gentile yes, so that God can bring you in... this is how God has made it to be. But regarding the Jews absolutely not; they are not (GASP) your enemies ~ for now ~ but rather enemies of God. All those hardened are enemies of God. But many of them will not remain so; this is the partial hardening that Paul speaks of and explicitly states that it will be removed. Wow.

Hey, let's stop this. :) You first. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Fair enough. I guess John may have not seen what he thought he saw or heard what he thought he heard.

Rev 21:9&10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Rev 21:12-14 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I think the book of Revelation was in heaps of doubt whether it should be included in the Biblical canon anyway. So maybe it isn't legitimate and should not to be relied upon as being from God.

What do you think?

I think you're right about Revelation.
It's used in different ways in different times, depending on how one wants to use it.
Sometimes it's taken literally....sometimes it's metaphoric...
John was old and had been alone.....who knows for sure what he meant by it all?

There are other writings I much rather would have wanted to see included in the NT.
But we have what we have, for whatever reason.

I think the visions John saw were from God....but for HIM.
I don't think it should be used for study purposes.

My 2 cents.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. :)


Ah, so no longer is there anyone out there who will but have not yet come to Christ.... Hmmm... :)

According to Scripture, God's completion of Israel is what will prompt the return of Christ. So, if what you say here is so, then why hasn't Jesus come back yet, and executed the final Judgment, and ushered in the New Heaven and New Earth? :) Or even... why was there ever anything else? :) Why has Jesus not been here physically with us even before and since... Genesis 3? :) More rhetorical questions; sorry... :)


That's... literally what I just said.


Not it's not... :)


Yes they are; quote the entire passage and it cannot be credibly denied: "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."


For your sake as a Gentile yes, so that God can bring you in... this is how God has made it to be. But regarding the Jews absolutely not; they are not (GASP) your enemies ~ for now ~ but rather enemies of God. All those hardened are enemies of God. But many of them will not remain so; this is the partial hardening that Paul speaks of and explicitly states that it will be removed. Wow.

Hey, let's stop this. :) You first. :)

Grace and peace to you.

You first....
funny.

And you owe me a reply....
:)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You misunderstand. I agree that no promise of God is greater than another in this wooden sense. But rather, "lesser" (in quotes) in that it is not the full manifestation of the one ~ "greater" in this sense, of full manifestation ~ Promise.

I am not sure what this means, God made specific promises to specific people.

Are all of these covenants equal. and do they matter?

(I understand the one which saved is the best and greatest of them all. but are the others any less valid?

Consider this: This is covenantal thinking, which is the language of our Covenant-making God. We have the lesser covenants, the covenant of life, made first with Adam (therefore Adamic) and then remade with Noah (therefore Noahic), the covenants of land and a people, made with Abraham (therefore Abrahamic), the covenant of the law, made with Moses (therefore Mosaic), and the covenant of kingship (therefore Davidic). All these covenants were of great importance, and had not woodely "lesser" but very, very important, even spiritual implications in the lives of the ancient Israelites. And in this way, all of these covenants pointed to ~ were lesser manifestations of ~ the one everlasting Covenant, the true manifestation to come which contains all the lesser cumulatively, Jesus, Who IS life (as He says), with whom we will be co-heirs of the true Promised Land, the earth with all the people of God, and Christ Jesus IS the Law made perfect (this is what Paul is referring to when he refers to the Law of Christ), and Jesus ~ of course ~ is our true, forever King.

I disagree. Not all of these covenants point to the one. and the one is not even part of the other. they are separate covenants binding by God. Only the mosaic was a conditional covenant, and in effect. led to the new covenant. and it is also the only covenant which crosses other covenants..

The greater was always ~ always ~ in effect, and always will be. The lesser is a tutor of sorts, a guardian ~ which is exactly the language Paul uses in Galatians 3 regarding the Old Testament Law ~ pointing to, instructive of the greater ~ which specifically regarding the Law is the Law of Christ.

yes, the conditional covenant, was given to point to Christ

You know what the writer of Hebrews says, that "...on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant" (Hebrews 7:18-22). Again:

David, the king of Israel appointed by God in those days of old, is the lesser king (pointing to, representative of the greater, true King to come, King Jesus); in this way, David is a "shadow," a "type" of Jesus.

And David is king of physical, ethnic, so lesser (pointing to, representative of the greater, true Israel ~ "the city..." (actually a people, in the same sense that Christ's Church is a people) "...that has foundations..." (the true Foundation of which is Jesus) "...whose Designer and Builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10) ~ to come, which is all of God's people, His elect, the Israel of God.


Well, not lesser Israel, but greater Israel, the Israel of God, you surely are, as am I. Since we are in Christ, we are all children of the promise, counted as offspring, and thus children of God.

Non of these proves you point. That the land covenant is now null and void. and has been replaced with the church. (ie replacement theology)

As a Gentile, not originally, no, but now, since we are one in Christ Jesus... :) ...all God's true promises are yours just as much as they ever were those to whom they were originally given.

The promise does not belong to me, not any other gentile in the old testament or the new. Not sure where you are getting this idea from

Yes you do; God has given it to you.

No I do not. And if I did. why is the church not living in the promise land in peace? Is the church in rebellion and in?? Otherwise, God promised they would be in peace..

Paul says it, as I have cited a couple of times at least: "(we) Gentiles... were at (one) time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world... (b)ut now in Christ Jesus (we Gentiles) who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ... no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God..." (Ephesians 2:11-22).

For salvation yes
We are not talking about the new covenant, we are talking about a specific covenant God made with a nation of people.. why are you trying to make them equal. they are not.

Yes, but greater Israel, all of God's elect ~ so the Israel of God ~ and not lesser, ethnic, physical Israel.

No. this is a calvinist misinterpretation of romans 9 - 11..

Age has no relevance. A person being one of God's elect has no age limitation. God can remove the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh... and therefore be that person's God... at any age, even while still in his or her mother's womb... which is to say that even stillborn or ~ GASP ~ aborted babies can ~ possibly, if it is God's will ~ go to heaven. This is a rhetorical question, SI, but would you presume for yourself what God's justice should or should not be? If so, I would answer to that in Paul's words at the end of Romans 11:

• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?' ... To Him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33-36)

Your not proving your point

I would say that God's statement that "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" is all the proof we need. We have no evidence that God removed Esau's heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh, or that he was born again of the Spirit.

God did not hate a baby in the womb, He hated (literally loved less) the nation which came from him. This is a quote from Malachi, the child esau was not who was being discussed.

yet another flaw of calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9

Maybe so, but neither John Calvin nor true Calvinists like me would be among that number, whatever it might be.

You just prety much stated it in your last comment. But you do not believe it??

Right back atcha, EG. Although... all these things are spiritually discerned, so if one can do all the studying in the world, but if the Spirit does not give understanding of these things ~ which does not necessarily mean the person is not a Christian or does not have the Spirit ~ then he or she will not have, in this life, understanding of these things. Knowledge and wisdom too are gifts of the Spirit...

Actually I did study it in great detail. But thank you.

Hmmm... Well, I'm sure with both know what James says about those who might teach... And teaching is also a gift of the Spirit...

And?

Well good. But mischaracterizing John Calvin's ~ and that of true Calvinists like me ~ as fatalistic is not good... :)

You are fatalistic.. You have not shown me otherwise. double predestination is in effect a fatalistic view. are you saying you are not a double predestined person?

Uh-oh... :)

It was quite eye opening to many..

Hmmm, probably was more pleasing to itching human ears, in the sense of what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3...

No. It just made more sense in the light of scripture. and in light of knowing a God who claims to be a God of love

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Fair enough. I guess John may have not seen what he thought he saw or heard what he thought he heard.

Rev 21:9&10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Rev 21:12-14 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I think the book of Revelation was in heaps of doubt whether it should be included in the Biblical canon anyway. So maybe it isn't legitimate and should not to be relied upon as being from God.

What do you think?

No John saw what he say

But the abrahamic covenant (I give you this land as an eternal promise_ does not concern new Jerusalem.

That was my point, if it did. then every descendent of Abraham Isaac and Jacob should be given the new Jerusalem.. And we both know that is not the case

 

[PinSeeker]

And you owe me a reply....

For? I reserve the right to... be forgetful... from time to time... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

For? I reserve the right to... be forgetful... from time to time... :)

Grace and peace to you.

You're excused !
Post no. 741

Only because I put time into it and I don't have much...
:)

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: You misunderstand. I agree that no promise of God is greater than another in this wooden sense. But rather, "lesser" (in quotes) in that it is not the full manifestation of the one ~ "greater" in this sense, of full manifestation ~ Promise.​

I am not sure what this means...

You can probably figure it out, if you, you know, actually think about it. :) But, hey, I'm here to help if you like... :) You may possibly already do this ~ understand Scripture as a whole in this way ~ but it seems to me you don't now see Scripture as covenantal ~ and incremental, cumulative ~ but rather dispensational. The former is the way it should be seen.

, God made specific promises to specific people.

Yes, but they weren't just for those specific people, at least in the sense in which you understand these "specific people" to be.

Are all of these covenants equal. and do they matter?

Hmmm, that question is... ambiguous. I mean, not intentionally, I'm sure. But still... So:

• Do they matter? Yes, of course.
• Are they equal? Well that would need some clarifying to answer yes or no, so for now, it's a yes and no, which is unsatisfying, I know. But in some sense yes, and in some sense no. I can explain... :) But I'll leave that for now and address it only if you ask me to.

(I understand the one which saved is the best and greatest of them all. but are the others any less valid?

All have they're absolute validity... if understood in their proper sense. I think I've been very clear on this.

I disagree.

Of course you do. :)

Not all of these covenants point to the one. and the one is not even part of the other...

Every covenant made by God in Scripture has its purpose, and the one unified Covenant ~ in Christ ~ incorporates them all and will finally be fully manifested in the age to come... through and in and with the Person of Jesus.

...they are separate covenants binding by God.

Yes, but they are all intimately connected, and will finally be made full together and are thus one. Like a perfect diamond, you could say, perfectly white, perfectly clear, containing many facets, and without exclusions.

Only the mosaic was a conditional covenant, and in effect. led to the new covenant...

Not sure what you mean here; I would say none were conditional. And I would say that all "led to" the new covenant... Actually, I would say it this way, that each of the lesser covenants were new and better expressions of the previous lesser covenants (and did not nullify the previous lesser covenants, of course) and thus cumulatively revealed what the New Covenant would finally look like.

None of these proves your point.

To you. :) I get it. :)

That the land covenant is now null and void.

Well, now the covenant made with Abraham included a people, descendants, who would together number as the stars of heaven, the grains of sand on the seashore... an innumerable multitude, and that covenant is certainly not null and void and never will be, so the same is true of the land covenant. No, the land covenant made with Abraham had a lesser more immediate manifestation (the Israelites ~ minus Moses, who only saw it but did not enter it~ entered into the Promised Land after the Exodus, and it will have a fuller long-range manifestation when Jesus comes back ~ He is also the Greater Moses ~ and with Him we inherit the earth, the Greater Promised Land. So the God made to Abraham was what we call layered, which is a general concept regarding most of the prophecies of Scripture.

and has been replaced with the church. (ie replacement theology)

Not replaced... Christ's Church includes all those of Israel ~ God's Israel ~ across all time... of every tongue, tribe and nation.

The promise does not belong to me, not any other gentile in the old testament or the new. Not sure where you are getting this idea from

I just quoted... Wow. Again, "(we) Gentiles... were at (one) time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world... (b)ut now in Christ Jesus (we Gentiles) who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ... no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God..." (Ephesians 2:11-22).

No. this is a calvinist misinterpretation of romans 9 - 11..

Again, to you. :) I get it. :)

Your not proving your point

In... your opinion.

You just pretty much stated it in your last comment...

No, that's the spin you put on it.

...double predestination is in effect a fatalistic view.

I agree.

...are you saying you are not a double predestined person?

Yes. God predestines some to be conformed to the image of His son. This is the only predestination ever spoken of in God's Word.

It was quite eye opening to many...

I'm sure you did a "good job." :)

... It just made more sense...

Right, in the sense of 2 Timothy 4:3. A self-fulfilling prophecy we often call it these days...

...in light of knowing a God who claims to be a God of love

God's love is not so... limited...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Post no. 741

So there's quite a bit in that post, but is this ~ "how do you explain Romans 10:9-10 and Acts 16:31 ?" ~ the only question? Well, two questions, I suppose... Is that right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

So there's quite a bit in that post, but is this ~ "how do you explain Romans 10:9-10 and Acts 16:31 ?" ~ the only question? Well, two questions, I suppose... Is that right?

Grace and peace to you.

Sure.
You could debunk my explanation of one of the verses you had posted to me.
It plainly means what I posted....
if you don't care too does it mean you agree with me?

And Romans 10 and Acts 16 explain HOW we become saved.
Do you agree?

 

[Christian Soldier]

Typical.
No scripture.
Your OPINIONS really don't interest me.

BTW....ALL MEN means ALL MEN.

THE WORLD means THE WORLD.

And there are many STUPID persons who will not accept the gospel (re John 3:16).

So, that's the best you can do?

Fine.

You reject Gods Word, because you have been deceived by the false Arminian theology. So you're unable to rightly divide the Word of God, you don't have any discernment. Your approach to Gods Word is to alter it to make it say what your Arminian theology dictates.

You're accusing God of being the author of confusion, just because of your ignorance of His Word. God doesn't contradict Himself as you're suggesting He does. There are many stupid persons who take Gods Word out of it's intended context and push their doctrine of Demons.

Now if you what to vindicate yourself, you need to list all the various Biblical meanings of terms, "ALL MEN" and "The WORLD". You can only see scripture through the distorted Arminian lens, you need to understand that Arminius can't override what Gods said.

You falsely claim that words are only used in a single context in the entire Bible, that alone condemns your theology as false, let alone all your other claims.

 

[Christian Soldier]

What gospel is MORE MAN CENTERED
than believing in a man named John Calvin?
Believing IN A MAN....
Instead of Jesus who made everything He taught very clear...
as did His Apostles and writers of the NT.

There you go again, demonstrating that you don't know the basic facts about scripture. That is because your mind has been poisoned by the Demonic Doctrine of Jacob Arminius, you really can't read any scripture without looking at it through the Demonic Arminius lens.
You have placed your eternal security in the hands of an evil man named Jacob Arminius. You reject everything that Jesus and Hi Apostles taught and cling to your idol, good luck with that.
The problem with you Arminians is, you never consider the context of the scriptures you abuse. You always pluck them out of their intended context, and make them say something other that what they actually mean. God promised to cast all those who do thins into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever.

 

[Christian Soldier]

wow. No pride here. And I see your follower just loves your sarcastic demeaning, attack on someone else.



Once again, Put down your calvinist playbook. open the bible and study.

Amen, She would agree with you as do I


Actually its you looking through your foggy calvin lens.

Are you sure she think Gods lied. or are you just looking again through your calvinist lense?

God said we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

You can not remove faith from the equation. there is no grace applied without faith.



lol. Yet I have showed you at least passages that show we were saved after we believed or had faith.

lol. What bible do you read?

Yet people do it all the time. Paul called the jewish religious people fools. for thinking they begin in the spirit and perfect in the flesh.

Just because we have people who reject does not mean that it is not offered.




lol.. Many thousands maybe millions have done that very thing.

The only other option we have is we have an evil God who claims to be a God of love but is a God of hate, and does not even give them the ability to be saved, He chose them to be born into this sinful world. just to send them to hell

Which is what your flawed theology teaches

lol. Typical calvinist logic. Again put your calvinist playbook down.

No my friend, YOU have a very low view of God.

God says he is perfect in Justice and Love.


You claim he is sort of perfect in justice, and is totally flawed in Love

Please take that Demonic Arminian lens off and ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand what Gods Word is saying. You will never understand it, while you use that distorted foggy lens.

I don't know what you call it when someone refutes what God said, and contradicts Him by claiming a completely different message. But I call it accusing God of lying.

You read everything backwards, you claim that grace is not applied until the person fabricates faith within their totally depraved nature which hates God. God says He saves by grace, before pone is born but you say God is a liar and twist it i reverse and claim that you are saved by your faith. That doctrine is from the pits of hell.

You didn't show me any passages that say you are saved after you exercise your faith. It's just your Demonic Arminian Theology, preventing you from understanding what God clearly said. He said He saved His people before He created the world, but you accuse God of being a liar and push your false gospel over Gods Word.

You still haven't explained why the worlds greatest minds, have chosen to burn forever while rejecting the free offer of eternal paradise. Only a super stupid person would believe that the smartest people in the world chose to suffer in eternal hellfire. That is the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever put forward. The fact that you believe that, exposes your Demonic theology.

The true option is, you don't know why God does what He does. He is a mystery, and only fools try to get into His business. He warned us in many scriptures to keep our noses out of His business, or He will cast us into the lake of fire. Who gave you the right to put God on trial, a totally depraved fallen wicked sinner wanting to put God on trial. I can't thing of anything more foolish or dangerous.

 

[Christian Soldier]

You can do whatever you want, It does not make you right

I reject your interpretation of this passage, because it once again Makes God a god of hate not love,.Was it no you earlier who said John was speaking about Gnostics. Now he is speaking about jews?

and PS. Read the letter, starting at 1 John 1, There is no indication he is writing to the jews, he is writing to the church which includes jew and gentile.. once again, Put your calvinist playbook down..

It says us, does he not mean every one of us? Your logic is flawed. If he meant every one of us, the logical conclusion is he meant everyone in the world. He would not have to say ever person (individually) he is talking about the collective (Us being those who are already saved and them being everyone else)

Then p[rove me wrong. because you would be the first person I have spoke who even admitted this.

Ah, But you say they could not come to truth no matter what, because it is foolish to them, ie God keeps the truth from them

now your saying they could understand it?

lol. talk about being all over the place..

Oh yes it does. When it sends them to out darkness, its Gods justice that does that.. Like @Ritajanice (who keeps loving your posts) you do not know God very well.

LOLOL

Ok, I am sorry I had to laugh.

Gods justice is his essence, his character, his person.

Please I beg of you. Put your calvinist playbook down

I am not Arminian. I do not know the man, the people. or have any part of them, I reject their works based Gospel.. To me, they are just as guilty of calvin

when you realise there are more to the church than calvinists or arminians, you will be able to open your eyes and actually hear what other people are saying,,

lol. Your right, it does not offer salvation to anyone, the offer was made a few verses before this.

You make me laugh man,, You will do and say anything to help you continue in your belief system.. I have heard alot. but this comment here takes the cake.

We do not get saved because we worship him, We get saved By grace THRAOUGH FAITH. when we hear the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and having believed, being sealed with the spirit of Promise, We are saved because we eat the bread from heaven, because we ask for the living water, because we recieve him (all words of the apostle John)

They will be at that judgment, because they heard the word. But loved their sin more. so they rejected the offer.

They are condemned, because they did not believe

Yes they will. Because they rejected the savior,. Willingly and knowingly.

Your distorted calvin theology has blinded you. And one more time, I am not arminian. Stop with your silly accusations. Where is your love? Start acting like a believer. or just prove maybe you are not even yourself a true believer

But I'm right, God is a God of hate. He is also a jealous God, He is also a God of vengeance, He is also a God of patience, He is also a God of mercy, He is also a God of war. I can give you a long list of Gods attributes, you Arminians have created a fake "god of love" in your minds. Such a false god only exists in your imagination.

I can't understand why you reject the God of the bible and create a fictitious god for yourself. The only logical reason I can think of is, that you don't like the God of the Bible, because He doesn't love evil doers.

You keep including yourself to this "us" word, what evidence do you have to support the notion that the "us" refers to you. Again, the only evidence you have is in your fantasy but it doesn't exist outside of your mind. If you had biblical evidence, you would show it, but I can't trust your private opinions.

You say you're not an Arminian, but your entire theology is pure Arminianism. You obviously don't even know that you have fallen victim to his doctrine of Demons. The Bible says that God will send them strong delusion so they will believe the lies. So it's actually God who blinds the wicked, so they can't receive the saving knowledge of the truth.

Your obviously ignorant of the fact that the Church is divided because of the two gospels, which you call Calvinism and Arminianism. I don't label them as such, because they should be labeled according to their interpretation of the gospel. Jacob Arminius preached the gospel of works, where the person is saved or condemned according to their works. John Calvin preached the gospel of grace, where God saves people according to His election.

You claim to reject both interpretations, but you have never revealed which interpretation you believe to be correct. You can't sit on the fence and claim ignorance in this situation, you have to take sides or offer a third option and don't try to claim that nonsense that you believe what the bibles says because everyone of the 45,000 denominations believe as you do. They believe everyone else is wrong and they are right. That is the height of ignorance.

 

[Christian Soldier]

John 15 is about producing fruit.

If we (believers) abide in him, we will produce fruit

if we (believers) do not, he will prune us, lift us up (in the translation it says cut off. but that is a bad translation) which is what people who tend vines due to vines that are laying to the ground, because they get choked and can not produce fruit.

its all about fruit, not about salvation.

And it is a command to us believers, if we want to produce fruit. we need to abide in him

I agree John 15 is about producing fruit. The only question is, who produces the fruit. Is it man or God.

I don't believe that man can produce any good fruit, so man can only be used as a vessel, by which God produces good fruit. God said, "without Me, you can do nothing".

There's no such thing as believers "not abiding in Him". You must be referring to unbelievers. Cut off is the correct translation, because it means they will be cut off and cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever. So that is certainly not speaking about believers, as they have already inherited eternal paradise.

No person ever born after Adam would ever want to produce good fruit, because they hate God and they love sin. How could a God hating servant of Satan ever produce good fruit. fruit can be used interchangeably with good works and we know that every man will be judged according to his works. So it is all about producing good fruit for salvation, you wont be saved unless you have produced good fruit, it's as simple as that.

So it's certainly not a command, and there's no way to make it say it is. Why would God use "if" to give a command, when in every other instance He says, "you shall", how did you conclude that "if" and "you shall" mean the same thing, it's like trying to use a square peg to block to block a round hole, it can never be done no matter which way you look at it.

 

[BlessedPeace]

There's a power controlling the world that's responsible for the constant unrest and turmoil and many Christians blame Leftists, Bankers, Islam, Jews, etc., even "right wing" extremists (which are only "extreme" to those who've moved so far left that God, if He exists at all, must be a woman). The truth is that all these agencies are controlled by Satan via a network of Luciferian secret societies whose members are sworn to the strictest secrecy as they pass the torch from one generation to the next, going about their clandestine work of moving the nations toward the final climactic battle between good and evil, controlling politics, education, judicial systems, mass media, and even religion through the papacy in Rome, Satan's "Antichrist" which claims to "take the place of Christ" - the very definition of the term - and a well organized Jesuit Order under which all these secret societies operate. Of course, God is keeping these in check for now, as the angels hold back the "winds of strife" - but soon, those winds will begin to blow hard upon the Earth.

Since the end time deceptions could, if possible, deceive even the very elect, why are so many opposed to "conspiracy theories" - a disparaging term invented by the CIA to discourage public questioning of "official" reports? Christians, being forewarned that deception would define the very end times in which we live, ought to be those most well armed against deception - so the fact that so many scoff at "conspiracy theories" while swallowing whatever is spooned out by CNN or Fox News, by Leftist ideology or popular Conservatism, is strong evidence they may not be among the elect at all, which is most alarming.

Therefore, all Christians ought to be in a constant state of alarm and readiness, either because of the clear and present danger all around us, or because they've been blinded by deception. It's up to us to ensure we're following the "Biblical Jesus" and not some "false christ" preached to us by those who are themselves deceived.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTbHLOB5jHyPxt6B3dZfpVCTpDK6VdBUi&si=ww83B43VZDl_9lr-

Isn't Amazing Discoveries affiliated with SDA?

Also, per the OP video, I think we have to remember all this happens under God's nose.

 

[Ritajanice]

It is the Holy Spirit alone through God's grace who develops the fruit of the Spirit. The moment a person has been Born Of The Spirit the Holy Spirit has then taken up permanent residence in that person's heart/ spirit....And it is the Spirit's power that transforms and molds the person into Christ's likeness.....His Spirit is at work in our heart/ spirit the moment we become his spirit children....

Without God’s Living witness His Living Holy Spirit testifying that to your spirit, you wouldn’t even know what the fruit of Jesus was....unfortunately you can’t read that into being.....you need God’s witness....that happens when we become Born Again ( our spirit is birthed into Christ Spirit).....without the divine birth/ Spirit, just as Gods Witness and his penned word says, we are none of His.

Only Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit can witness Gods truth to our spirit/ heart.....mind blowing!!

 

[GodsGrace]

There you go again, demonstrating that you don't know the basic facts about scripture. That is because your mind has been poisoned by the Demonic Doctrine of Jacob Arminius, you really can't read any scripture without looking at it through the Demonic Arminius lens.
You have placed your eternal security in the hands of an evil man named Jacob Arminius. You reject everything that Jesus and Hi Apostles taught and cling to your idol, good luck with that.
The problem with you Arminians is, you never consider the context of the scriptures you abuse. You always pluck them out of their intended context, and make them say something other that what they actually mean. God promised to cast all those who do thins into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever.

I only reply to scripture.
As I stated already....your OPINIONS don't interest me.

I guess that's all you've got....opinions.