Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[One 2 question]

Wewe believing Gentiles are grafted into His true Israel (Romans 11:17), that He will re-graft into His true Israel the natural branches previously broken off (Romans 11:24), and sums it all up by saying, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26).

I'm a little confused. Which is not uncommon for me

The Israel who are represented by Paul as natural branches, are they descendants of Abraham the Father of Isaac, the husband of Sarah?

When Paul refered to himself as of the tribe of Benjamin, was this Benjamin Abraham and Sarah's natural great grandson and Jacob/Israel's natural son?

So when Paul continues this discussion, is he refering to the natural children of Jacob as in the tribes of Jacob, also known as the tribes of Israel? And if he is refering to Israel's natural descendants including Benjamin right down to Paul himself then the natural branches being cut off are the natural descendants of Jacob, his father Isaac and grandfather Abraham.

As Paul said, he would like to be cut off (as a natural branch, of the tribe of Benjamin) so the those who are wild by nature (Gentiles, not of the tribes of Jacob) could be grafted in his place.

I just had a quick count of the references to the natural branches (Israel) over 10 verses. There were 20 references. Someone could say that Paul was trying to make something clear. There were 10 references to the wild branches (Gentiles).

But who do you say are the natural branches? And who are the wild ones?

 

[PinSeeker]

The Israel who are represented by Paul as natural branches, are they descendants of Abraham the Father of Isaac, the husband of Sarah?

Natural descendants, yes, "by the letter," as Paul puts it in Romans 2, so ethnic Jews. But they are not necessarily of God's Israel; they are not, and not true Jews of God, if they are not in Christ. They are the ones who have been "broken off," but it is possible for them to be re-grafted in... if they are born again and then in Christ, the true Vine, and thus come to belief in Christ as God's Messiah and their Savior.

When Paul referred to himself as of the tribe of Benjamin, was this Benjamin Abraham and Sarah's natural great grandson and Jacob/Israel's natural son?

Yes.

So when Paul continues this discussion, isn't he referring to the natural children of Jacob as in the tribes of Jacob, also known as the tribes of Israel?

Yes, but... Well, I'll save the full answer...

And if he is refering to Israel's natural descendants including Benjamin right down to Paul himself then the natural branches being cut off are the natural descendants of Jacob, his father Isaac and grandfather Abraham.

Yes... But Paul, though he was cut off, is re-grafted in. He was converted to Christ. This is documented in Acts 9, previous to his letter to the Romans... and his other epistles.

As Paul said, he would like to be cut off (as a natural branch, of the tribe of Benjamin) so the those who are wild by nature (Gentiles, not of the tribes of Jacob) could be grafted in his place.

Hmmm... maybe you're referring to something else; correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're referring here to Romans 9:3, where he says, "I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh." If so, he's referring here to those "natural branches," who have been cut off. He can directly identify with them ethnically, because he himself is ethnically Jewish. This is why he can say, "for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh," so, to be re-grafted in in his place, right? Of course, he knows that this cannot happen, as nothing can separate him (or anyone in Christ) from the love of Christ, from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, as he has just said at the end of Romans 8. But this is why he has "great sorrow and unceasing anguish in (his) heart;" he aches for his ethnic brethren, longs for them to be converted to Christ for their own sakes as he is. You see?

Who do you say are the natural branches? And who are the wild ones?

I think I've answered this; ethnic Jews are the natural, Gentiles are the wild. But the wall of hostility between the two is broken down in Christ. It's at least as clear, if not more so, in Ephesians 2:11-22, where he's writing to Gentiles...

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands ~ remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Gottservant]

"alarmed" means "aware of danger". But, too many are "ignorant of the devil's devices" and, therefore, are fast asleep while danger lurks all around - right or wrong?

If you fall asleep having prayed what you ought (that you be delivered and stand), you will at least have hope of resisting the Devil.

 

[One 2 question]

I am of those nations that are blessed because of the savior that came through the seed of Abraham. (not of Israel) because the promise (to Israel) was NEVER about salvation If it was (As Israel claimed) then all jews would be saved.. That was an argument Paul destroyed in Romans 9

This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." The same is true of me.

So you are not you saying that the purpose of grafting the Gentiles into the vine, is just a means to an end, to provoke the descendants of Jacob, Isaac and Abraham to become jealous so that they will by whatever means come to an acceptance of and faith in their Messiah who they rejected.

Are there other reasons for us Gentile for being grafted into their (the cut off Jews) spot on the vine?

Are there any other benefits for the natural branches than just being descendants and belonging to the tribes of Jacob, whose father was Isaac and his father the father of faith, Abraham?

Paul did mention something about this.
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 9:4&5

 

[Christian Soldier]

Thanks CS....you're so nice.
This is what I expect from the reformed....
anger and disrespect for everyone.

Maybe this is because they feel so special that God chose them to be saved.
And the rest of us blokes are just trying to understand this God that only the reformed have understood....

Too bad it took 1,500 years, because all those that came BEFORE you,,,understood God to be exactly the way
I do and also the rest of Christendom.

So let's see these verses you think you understand:



God's choosing is ALWAYS a HOW or a WHY.
Never a WHO.

Ephesians 1:4
God chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world.
So that we could be holy and blameless IN HIM in love. (something you don't seem to know enough about).

So Ephesians 1:4 is speaking to HOW we were chosen.....
to be IN HIM....through Jesus we are saved, and not of ourselves.

BUT BY FAITH.....BY FAITH.....NOT because of some unknown reason. God wants us to know HOW TO BE SAVED.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Notice too that we are saved BY FAITH.
We don't get faith - salvation - FIRST, and THEN get saved.
This is also incorrect doctrine taught in the reformed faith.



Again CS, just read what it says:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1. Again,,,,the above is stating HOW one is saved.
God chose us for salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT and faith in the truth.
Again, we mush have faith....not salvation first and THEN faith.

2. Notice verse 14: God called us/them THROUGH THE GOSPEL......
Through the gospel GOD CALLS.
NOT through some mysterious way only He knows and will not allow US to know.

Why?
Because God desires that ALL MEN BE SAVED.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


See CS, God desires that ALL MEN BE SAVED,,,,,not just some random men that HE chooses.
This is not justice.

God was good enough, since He's a loving God, to let us KNOW HOW to be saved:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Acts 16:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

Who do you think nows more.....
John Calvin or Paul ??

Paul said that all we need to do to be saved is to believe in the Lord Jesus.

NOT sit around and wait for God to save us.


Also, note that BELIEF comes first and THEN SALVATION.

The opposite of what the reformed believe.





Again....God is calling us WITH A PURPOSE.

That would be a HOW
not a WHO.


Yes. Satan.
You and all reformed are full of hate because you're told the truth but you WON'T PAY ATTENTION TO IT.

Now please go back and give us your detailed exegesis of each verse you posted,
just like I did.

Thanks.

You might want to explain John 3:16 too.
Maybe you could show HOW it's speaking to those already saved??? (as you are taught incorrectly).
thanks.

You're dead wrong, I actually have love and pity for all those who have been deceived by the Arminian Doctrine of Demons. It's very clear to me, that you can't receive Gods Word, in it's intended context because you are blind to it. You have twisted every single verse above, to make them fit your false Arminian theology.

It's obvious that you don't know anything about the reformation of the Church in the 1,500's, I don't have the time to teach you so you might want to do a study to equip yourself with some facts. You obviously believe that Romanism and Popery, is the true Church, so we're worlds apart with our theological views.

My Bible says that it's never the WHY or HOW but it's always the WHO. So your dead wrong again, because you see everything through the foggy Arminian lens. The Bible says "He chose us" but you claim that God lied when He said that, you claim the "US" means "WHY & HOW", this is pure heresy. There's no way in the world you can get it that twisted and messed up, unless someone deceived or bewitched you.

You claim that you are saved by your faith, this is pure Demonic Doctrine. God said you are saved by "GRACE" but you make God a liar and claim that you saved yourself by your "FAITH", how blind do you have to be to invent such a blatant lie.

There is no verse in the Bible, which says you are saved by FAITH, as you falsely claim. You made that up, in the hope that I don't know what God said. You may be ably to deceive other blind followers of Jacob Arminius, but you don't fool me for a second.

Nowhere does the Bible say that God offered salvation to anyone, please find a single verse and share it so I can join you "name it and claim it people". God either saved you and wrote you name down in His book, before He created the world or He didn't. The problem with free choice gospel is, that it fails to take into consideration, the fact that God is sovereign over all things. Everything was predetermined, before God created anything, He didn't leave anything to chance or to the will of man.

If the "WHOSOEVER" in John 3:16 means that salvation and eternal paradise were offered to everyone, then it makes a mockery of the gospel. How stupid would someone have to be to reject the free offer of eternal paradise and choose eternal torment in hellfire. I don't believe a single person in all of human history would choose to spend eternity screaming in the lake of fire, while rejecting the free offer of eternal paradise. You'll never convince me that anyone is that stupid.

To "believe" in Jesus, is a present tense term. It's not saying, "if you chose to believe in Me, after you've had your fill of sin" No He says believe in Me and you shall be saved. You already know that it's impossible to believe in Him, unless it is given to you to by God. The Bible says we were all born dead in trespasses and sin, and "without Me you can do nothing", but you say "no God I was not born in sin and I'm wise enough to know that hell is not an intelligent option on your menu.

The "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 was spoken in the context of (not only Jews will be saved, but all men from every tribe and tongue) you always fail to understand what the scripture is saying, when you pluck verses out of their intended context.

You have a very low view of God, you make Him out to be a miserable God, who is trying to save everyone but He fails 95% of the time. The God of the Bible never fails in anything He sets out to achieve, you obviously don't believe that He is almighty.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Your right, He is not bypolar. But his love can not overrule his Justice. His justice demands a payment for sin. Love can not over rule that justice, But it can appease that justice (This is called propitiation)

And he made propitiation. not only for us (the elect) but for the whole world.

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

No. You do that, By making him torture people without giving them an opportunity to be saved

lol. Its obvious you have some studying to do. Put down your calvinist workbook. Open the bible. and learn from God.

Gods justice will punish the sin of unbelief

Gods justice is perfect.

so yes. God will send people he loved and died for to the lake of fire. because why?

He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

God is vindicated. and the whole of creation will honor and praise him. Because he did not send them to hell because he hated them, or because he refused to die for them, or because he did nto allow them an opportunity to be saved.

They sent themselves to hell. because Jesus did Love them, He did die for them, And he gave them every opportunity to believe. And they said no.

Again, Put down your calvinist workbook and pick up the bible.

I reject your interpretation of 1 John 2:2 as being false, because you didn't consider the context which it was spoken in. It was spoken to the Jews, I'm sure your aware that the Jews believed that they were the "chosen" or the "elect". The verse is saying that Jesus is the propitiation, not only for them but for people from every tribe and tongue in the world.

Why doesn't the verse simply say for every person in the world, if that's what it means. But no, you added your Arminian theology to make it say something other than what it said.

Reformed Theology doesn't tech that God punishes people without giving them an opportunity t be saved. You jump to false conclusions in everything. Those who God didn't chose to save, lived a life of open rebellion and hatred of God. They heard the gospel message many times but rejected Gods free salvation, so they can fulfill their wicked desires. The reason they rejected the gospel is because they love their sin, and hate God.

Gods justice doesn't punish anyone. God is the One who casts sinners into the lake of fire, not His justice.
God is a lot of things at the same time, you Arminian's make out that He is nothing more than love. But He is also hate and wrath and He has countless other attributes all co existing at the same time in Him.

You cited an incriminating verse, "he who believes is not condemned but he who does not believe is already condemned" notice the verse is speaking in the present tense. The verse doesn't offer salvation to anyone, it's simply saying those who believe are saved and those who do not are not saved. There is no mention of some future decision that one makes, you're either chosen by God or your not.

All creation will bow before the Lord, because everyone believes in who He is, but they don't worship Him as their Lord and savior. The Demons believe and tremble, just as unbelievers believe and will tremble when they bow down begging for mercy but no mercy will be shown to them.

Your distorted Arminian theology, has blinded you to the truth. So you're not even able to discern the truth from lies any more.

 

[JLB]

You're dead wrong, I actually have love and pity for all those who have been deceived by the Arminian Doctrine of Demons. It's very clear to me, that you can't receive Gods Word, in it's intended context because you are blind to it. You have twisted every single verse above, to make them fit your false Arminian theology.

It's obvious that you don't know anything about the reformation of the Church in the 1,500's, I don't have the time to teach you so you might want to do a study to equip yourself with some facts. You obviously believe that Romanism and Popery, is the true Church, so we're worlds apart with our theological views.

My Bible says that it's never the WHY or HOW but it's always the WHO. So your dead wrong again, because you see everything through the foggy Arminian lens. The Bible says "He chose us" but you claim that God lied when He said that, you claim the "US" means "WHY & HOW", this is pure heresy. There's no way in the world you can get it that twisted and messed up, unless someone deceived or bewitched you.

You claim that you are saved by your faith, this is pure Demonic Doctrine. God said you are saved by "GRACE" but you make God a liar and claim that you saved yourself by your "FAITH", how blind do you have to be to invent such a blatant lie.

There is no verse in the Bible, which says you are saved by FAITH, as you falsely claim. You made that up, in the hope that I don't know what God said. You may be ably to deceive other blind followers of Jacob Arminius, but you don't fool me for a second.

Nowhere does the Bible say that God offered salvation to anyone, please find a single verse and share it so I can join you "name it and claim it people". God either saved you and wrote you name down in His book, before He created the world or He didn't. The problem with free choice gospel is, that it fails to take into consideration, the fact that God is sovereign over all things. Everything was predetermined, before God created anything, He didn't leave anything to chance or to the will of man.

If the "WHOSOEVER" in John 3:16 means that salvation and eternal paradise were offered to everyone, then it makes a mockery of the gospel. How stupid would someone have to be to reject the free offer of eternal paradise and choose eternal torment in hellfire. I don't believe a single person in all of human history would choose to spend eternity screaming in the lake of fire, while rejecting the free offer of eternal paradise. You'll never convince me that anyone is that stupid.

To "believe" in Jesus, is a present tense term. It's not saying, "if you chose to believe in Me, after you've had your fill of sin" No He says believe in Me and you shall be saved. You already know that it's impossible to believe in Him, unless it is given to you to by God. The Bible says we were all born dead in trespasses and sin, and "without Me you can do nothing", but you say "no God I was not born in sin and I'm wise enough to know that hell is not an intelligent option on your menu.

The "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 was spoken in the context of (not only Jews will be saved, but all men from every tribe and tongue) you always fail to understand what the scripture is saying, when you pluck verses out of their intended context.

You have a very low view of God, you make Him out to be a miserable God, who is trying to save everyone but He fails 95% of the time. The God of the Bible never fails in anything He sets out to achieve, you obviously don't believe that He is almighty.

Jesus warned us to remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

 

[Christian Soldier]

Jesus warned us to remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that John 15:6 is a commandment as it clearly is not. Jesus is simply stating a fact, there is nothing in it to suggest that it's command to anyone. I understand "If anyone does not abide in Me", to mean that those who are not truly born again, will be exposed as false converts because they did not bare any fruit. So they are cast out as a withered branch.

Jesus never commanded anyone to believe in Him or abide in Him. He simply said things like "do you believe in Me" and if you believe in Me you would obey Me. He never offered salvation, as a consumer product, where the buyer has to make the final choice. He always spoke about believing in Him as something that one either already possesses or he doesn't.

I understand 1 John 3:24 to be speaking about those who are born again believers, they already received the Holy Spirit. That is evidenced by the fact that they are able to keep His commandments and abide in Him. We know that the Holy Spirit is only given to born again believers, so it's the Holy Spirit who keeps the commandments and makes us abide in Him.

Man contributes absolutely nothing to his salvation, in fact it's less than nothing. All man has to contribute is a stinking corpse, God doesn't need our corpse to help Him save us. God said, "without Me, you can do nothing", but so many professing Christians reject what God said and push their false gospel, which robs God of the glory, praise and honor He deserves.

The man centered gospel, gives man the credit for his salvation. It teaches that salvation is by the choice of man and not God, but the Bible is full of scriptures which teach the opposite. Proud men don't allow the truth to interfere with their idol worship. They make their personal faith an idol and worship themselves.

 

[One 2 question]

They are the ones who have been "broken off," but it is possible for them to be re-grafted in... if they are born again and then in Christ, the true Vine, and thus come to belief in Christ as God's Messiah and their Savior.

Will they, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and his son Jacob, not Esau, all be saved as Paul prophesied? And does being saved mean being redeemed or born again, in Christ or grafted back in?

 

[GodsGrace]

So you are not you saying that the purpose of grafting the Gentiles into the vine, is just a means to an end, to provoke the descendants of Jacob, Isaac and Abraham to become jealous so that they will by whatever means come to an acceptance of and faith in their Messiah who they rejected.

Are there other reasons for us Gentile for being grafted into their (the cut off Jews) spot on the vine?

Are there any other benefits for the natural branches than just being descendants and belonging to the tribes of Jacob, whose father was Isaac and his father the father of faith, Abraham?

Paul did mention something about this.
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 9:4&5

Interesting conversation One2.

By THE BRANCHES Paul meant the Jews, Israelites and Hebrews --- all those of the OT.

God would use Gentiles to cause envy to the Jews of that time (Jesus' time) to bring them back because they denied their Savior.
But this is not the only reason.
Paul goes to a totally different discussion in Romans 9-11 and it's difficult to apply this teaching with the rest of what he states.

However, yes, Jesus broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile.
We are not all one in Christ.

Is this what you're pointing to?
I might have misunderstood.
(your questions sound rhetorical).

 

[GodsGrace]

You're dead wrong, I actually have love and pity for all those who have been deceived by the Arminian Doctrine of Demons. It's very clear to me, that you can't receive Gods Word, in it's intended context because you are blind to it. You have twisted every single verse above, to make them fit your false Arminian theology.

It's obvious that you don't know anything about the reformation of the Church in the 1,500's, I don't have the time to teach you so you might want to do a study to equip yourself with some facts. You obviously believe that Romanism and Popery, is the true Church, so we're worlds apart with our theological views.

My Bible says that it's never the WHY or HOW but it's always the WHO. So your dead wrong again, because you see everything through the foggy Arminian lens. The Bible says "He chose us" but you claim that God lied when He said that, you claim the "US" means "WHY & HOW", this is pure heresy. There's no way in the world you can get it that twisted and messed up, unless someone deceived or bewitched you.

You claim that you are saved by your faith, this is pure Demonic Doctrine. God said you are saved by "GRACE" but you make God a liar and claim that you saved yourself by your "FAITH", how blind do you have to be to invent such a blatant lie.

There is no verse in the Bible, which says you are saved by FAITH, as you falsely claim. You made that up, in the hope that I don't know what God said. You may be ably to deceive other blind followers of Jacob Arminius, but you don't fool me for a second.

Nowhere does the Bible say that God offered salvation to anyone, please find a single verse and share it so I can join you "name it and claim it people". God either saved you and wrote you name down in His book, before He created the world or He didn't. The problem with free choice gospel is, that it fails to take into consideration, the fact that God is sovereign over all things. Everything was predetermined, before God created anything, He didn't leave anything to chance or to the will of man.

If the "WHOSOEVER" in John 3:16 means that salvation and eternal paradise were offered to everyone, then it makes a mockery of the gospel. How stupid would someone have to be to reject the free offer of eternal paradise and choose eternal torment in hellfire. I don't believe a single person in all of human history would choose to spend eternity screaming in the lake of fire, while rejecting the free offer of eternal paradise. You'll never convince me that anyone is that stupid.

To "believe" in Jesus, is a present tense term. It's not saying, "if you chose to believe in Me, after you've had your fill of sin" No He says believe in Me and you shall be saved. You already know that it's impossible to believe in Him, unless it is given to you to by God. The Bible says we were all born dead in trespasses and sin, and "without Me you can do nothing", but you say "no God I was not born in sin and I'm wise enough to know that hell is not an intelligent option on your menu.

The "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 was spoken in the context of (not only Jews will be saved, but all men from every tribe and tongue) you always fail to understand what the scripture is saying, when you pluck verses out of their intended context.

You have a very low view of God, you make Him out to be a miserable God, who is trying to save everyone but He fails 95% of the time. The God of the Bible never fails in anything He sets out to achieve, you obviously don't believe that He is almighty.

Typical.
No scripture.
Your OPINIONS really don't interest me.

BTW....ALL MEN means ALL MEN.

THE WORLD means THE WORLD.

And there are many STUPID persons who will not accept the gospel (re John 3:16).

So, that's the best you can do?

Fine.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Me, too, but you replied anyway, so, I did. :)


Yes. But His promises have a lesser and a greater fulfillment. The lesser points to the greater, and the greater includes ~ not "replaces" ~ the lesser.

This is what I mean

No promise is greater than another. If God gave your family something, and said he gave it to them forever. And even made a law. and said as long as you do this, I will bless you with that gift. But if you do not, then I will punish you. Even to the poiunt or removing you from that prized land and giving it to your enemies. Until you repent. then when yuo do repent. I will remember my gift. (lev 26)

this is exactly what God did. If they repent and he does not give them back what is rightfully theirs. then there is an issue with a God that does not keep his promises.

No. It always was and always will be what it is.

I agree. And God said they will repent. and that he will restore them, in fact. all of them will be saved.

And he gave us Gentile beliers a warning.

Why would he warns us not to boast, if we were part of that Israel that would be saved. That makes no sense. and to me, that is doing exactly the opposite of what Paul warned the church not to do.

Absolutely.

But we are not apart of the other part.

Absolutely. Although, you're not a nation, EG. God promised Abraham that He would make him the father of a multitude of nations, and you are part of one of those nations, but you yourself are not a nation. And again, as Paul says, not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'through Isaac shall (Abraham's) offspring be named. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." The same is true of me. So again, in the lesser sense, I agree with you, but there is indeed a greater sense, an ultimate sense, in which ethnicity is not part of the equation; people of all ethnicities across all times are included. Both were always in effect, but the former, the lesser, pointed to ~ foreshadowed ~ the greater. As Paul says to the Gentile Christians in Galatia, a Roman province (and to us by extension):

Your right, I am part of the many nations.

I am not part of the one nation though. to whome the promise was given.

It was not given to me, I have no right to that claim, nor should I attempt to even claim I do.

But I should Hold God accountable if he is no longer going to keep his promise to that one nation. We all should (But I know God has and will keep his promise, even to this day)

"Now before faith came..." ~ this is before he or any of his addressees were actually given faith ~ "...we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came..." ~ until we received Christ ~ "...in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:23-29).

ok I am confused. what does salvation have to do with a land promise?

If you're talking about ethnic Jews, I absolutely agree, and have said this many, many times. Eternally Grateful, who is actually Israel? Who did God rename Israel? You remember, I'm sure. Genesis 32:28... Jacob, of course. Our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We ~ we. together, all of us in Christ ~ are Israel.

No. I am not Israel. I am a gentile believer, If I were to enter the 1000 year reign of Christ, I would be a gentile believer living in the nation of where God put me. I would not be living in the land of Canaan, which is not mine, and never will be.

Ah, well, I... somewhat... agree. :) In the first seven chapters, he gives us the bad news (to put it mildly). He sprinkles in a bit of the good news to fully come in Chapter 8, but overall in Romans 1-7 he tells us very systematically how bad things really are (were, actually):

• from being without excuse (Romans 1)
• to being in need of repentance, (Romans 2)
• to no one in and of themselves being righteous but falling short of the glory of God (Romans 3)
• to death spreading to all men because all sinned in Adam and being slaves of unrighteousness (Romans 5)
• to finally using himself as an example of us all in that we still do what we now know not to do and don't do what we now know we should do because of the sin within us, and that we are therefore wretched in our bodies of death (Romans 7),

In chapter 8, he finally floods in, emphatically, the good news ~ which is made all the better because now we know how utterly bad off we really were, and even that we are still fully undeserving ~ that there is now no condemnation for us because we are in Christ Jesus, that we have been set free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death, that we are children of God, and heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ, that for us God works all things together for good, that He has predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son and that we will ultimately be glorified. and that He will graciously give us all things, and that nothing, absolutely nothing, can separate us from the love of Christ, that nothing, absolutely nothing, can ever separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is not just good news, but absolutely unbelievably, unfathomably good news, as I'm sure you will agree.

And in Romans 9-11, he does shift a bit, but it is still in light of this unimaginably great news of Romans 8. This is a personal letter that he's writing, so he does not change his context. Rather, he zooms in and goes into further detail about who all the people are who are in Christ are, God's elect, and who Israel really consists of: God's vessels of mercy, which include all those whom God has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9:24). In chapter 10, Paul tells us that we are to take the Gospel to all, because we can't know who God's elect actually are, and that upon their hearing, God will draw His own to Him. I talked about the outward call before as opposed to the inward call; God issues His outward call through us in this way, through evangelism, and of all those who hear, He will issue His inward call by His Spirit to those who actually are among His elect. So he gives us the great privilege of participating in His building of His House, the Israel of God. And finally in Romans 11, he tells us that there is a remnant, chosen by grace (Romans 11:5), that we believing Gentiles are grafted into His true Israel (Romans 11:17), that He will re-graft into His true Israel the natural branches previously broken off (Romans 11:24), and sums it all up by saying, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26).

Again, I can not agree. Romans 9 is about Israel. Not about God hating some baby before he was born and condemning that baby to hell without even giving him an opportunity to repent.

There is no proof Esau will not be in heaven yet fatalists think he was predestined (born) to be sent to hell..

sorry I can not and will not buy that God would do such a thing

Not really a new topic... He tells us how we all, all of us in Christ, in view of what God has done for us, should live.

Again, I can not agree, if you really study it, you would see it in a new light.

I actually taught on romans 9 in my church, I started out giving the fatalistic view (if looks could kill I would be dead) halfway through I made the comment, is this really what Paul is saying, And I went back and started over. Giving it from the view I have been tal;king about. and the passage made more sense, it flowed better, and it fit alot better when you took 9 - 11 in complete succession (In fact I just did a teaching this year on romans 9 - 11 in one teaching and it flows)

I can't make it flow using the fatalistic view, and it sickens me to even think of the fatalistic view and the spotlight it puts God in as an evil God. not a loving God he claims to be.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that John 15:6 is a commandment as it clearly is not. Jesus is simply stating a fact, there is nothing in it to suggest that it's command to anyone. I understand "If anyone does not abide in Me", to mean that those who are not truly born again, will be exposed as false converts because they did not bare any fruit. So they are cast out as a withered branch.

Jesus never commanded anyone to believe in Him or abide in Him. He simply said things like "do you believe in Me" and if you believe in Me you would obey Me. He never offered salvation, as a consumer product, where the buyer has to make the final choice. He always spoke about believing in Him as something that one either already possesses or he doesn't.

I understand 1 John 3:24 to be speaking about those who are born again believers, they already received the Holy Spirit. That is evidenced by the fact that they are able to keep His commandments and abide in Him. We know that the Holy Spirit is only given to born again believers, so it's the Holy Spirit who keeps the commandments and makes us abide in Him.

Man contributes absolutely nothing to his salvation, in fact it's less than nothing. All man has to contribute is a stinking corpse, God doesn't need our corpse to help Him save us. God said, "without Me, you can do nothing", but so many professing Christians reject what God said and push their false gospel, which robs God of the glory, praise and honor He deserves.

The man centered gospel, gives man the credit for his salvation. It teaches that salvation is by the choice of man and not God, but the Bible is full of scriptures which teach the opposite. Proud men don't allow the truth to interfere with their idol worship. They make their personal faith an idol and worship themselves.

What gospel is MORE MAN CENTERED
than believing in a man named John Calvin?
Believing IN A MAN....
Instead of Jesus who made everything He taught very clear...
as did His Apostles and writers of the NT.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're dead wrong, I actually have love and pity for all those who have been deceived by the Arminian Doctrine of Demons. It's very clear to me, that you can't receive Gods Word, in it's intended context because you are blind to it. You have twisted every single verse above, to make them fit your false Arminian theology.

wow. No pride here. And I see your follower just loves your sarcastic demeaning, attack on someone else.

It's obvious that you don't know anything about the reformation of the Church in the 1,500's, I don't have the time to teach you so you might want to do a study to equip yourself with some facts. You obviously believe that Romanism and Popery, is the true Church, so we're worlds apart with our theological views.

Once again, Put down your calvinist playbook. open the bible and study.

My Bible says that it's never the WHY or HOW but it's always the WHO.

Amen, She would agree with you as do I

So your dead wrong again, because you see everything through the foggy Arminian lens.

Actually its you looking through your foggy calvin lens.

The Bible says "He chose us" but you claim that God lied when He said that, you claim the "US" means "WHY & HOW", this is pure heresy. There's no way in the world you can get it that twisted and messed up, unless someone deceived or bewitched you.

Are you sure she think Gods lied. or are you just looking again through your calvinist lense?

You claim that you are saved by your faith, this is pure Demonic Doctrine. God said you are saved by "GRACE" but you make God a liar and claim that you saved yourself by your "FAITH", how blind do you have to be to invent such a blatant lie.

God said we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

You can not remove faith from the equation. there is no grace applied without faith.

There is no verse in the Bible, which says you are saved by FAITH, as you falsely claim. You made that up, in the hope that I don't know what God said. You may be ably to deceive other blind followers of Jacob Arminius, but you don't fool me for a second.

lol. Yet I have showed you at least passages that show we were saved after we believed or had faith.

Nowhere does the Bible say that God offered salvation to anyone,

lol. What bible do you read?

please find a single verse and share it so I can join you "name it and claim it people". God either saved you and wrote you name down in His book, before He created the world or He didn't. The problem with free choice gospel is, that it fails to take into consideration, the fact that God is sovereign over all things. Everything was predetermined, before God created anything, He didn't leave anything to chance or to the will of man.

If the "WHOSOEVER" in John 3:16 means that salvation and eternal paradise were offered to everyone, then it makes a mockery of the gospel. How stupid would someone have to be to reject the free offer of eternal paradise and choose eternal torment in hellfire.

Yet people do it all the time. Paul called the jewish religious people fools. for thinking they begin in the spirit and perfect in the flesh.

Just because we have people who reject does not mean that it is not offered.

I don't believe a single person in all of human history would choose to spend eternity screaming in the lake of fire, while rejecting the free offer of eternal paradise. You'll never convince me that anyone is that stupid.

lol.. Many thousands maybe millions have done that very thing.

The only other option we have is we have an evil God who claims to be a God of love but is a God of hate, and does not even give them the ability to be saved, He chose them to be born into this sinful world. just to send them to hell

Which is what your flawed theology teaches

To "believe" in Jesus, is a present tense term. It's not saying, "if you chose to believe in Me, after you've had your fill of sin" No He says believe in Me and you shall be saved. You already know that it's impossible to believe in Him, unless it is given to you to by God. The Bible says we were all born dead in trespasses and sin, and "without Me you can do nothing", but you say "no God I was not born in sin and I'm wise enough to know that hell is not an intelligent option on your menu.

lol. Typical calvinist logic. Again put your calvinist playbook down.

The "ALL MEN" in 1 Tim 2:4 was spoken in the context of (not only Jews will be saved, but all men from every tribe and tongue) you always fail to understand what the scripture is saying, when you pluck verses out of their intended context.

You have a very low view of God, you make Him out to be a miserable God, who is trying to save everyone but He fails 95% of the time. The God of the Bible never fails in anything He sets out to achieve, you obviously don't believe that He is almighty.

No my friend, YOU have a very low view of God.

God says he is perfect in Justice and Love.


You claim he is sort of perfect in justice, and is totally flawed in Love

 

[Ritajanice]

In the same way that repentance is granted by God (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25), faith is also a supernatural gift of God. Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Ephesians 2:8 Context​

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

1 Corinthians 12-14​

​

King James Version​

​

​

12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I reject your interpretation of 1 John 2:2 as being false,

You can do whatever you want, It does not make you right

because you didn't consider the context which it was spoken in. It was spoken to the Jews, I'm sure your aware that the Jews believed that they were the "chosen" or the "elect". The verse is saying that Jesus is the propitiation, not only for them but for people from every tribe and tongue in the world.

I reject your interpretation of this passage, because it once again Makes God a god of hate not love,.Was it no you earlier who said John was speaking about Gnostics. Now he is speaking about jews?

and PS. Read the letter, starting at 1 John 1, There is no indication he is writing to the jews, he is writing to the church which includes jew and gentile.. once again, Put your calvinist playbook down..

Why doesn't the verse simply say for every person in the world, if that's what it means. But no, you added your Arminian theology to make it say something other than what it said.

It says us, does he not mean every one of us? Your logic is flawed. If he meant every one of us, the logical conclusion is he meant everyone in the world. He would not have to say ever person (individually) he is talking about the collective (Us being those who are already saved and them being everyone else)

Reformed Theology doesn't tech that God punishes people without giving them an opportunity t be saved. You jump to false conclusions in everything.

Then p[rove me wrong. because you would be the first person I have spoke who even admitted this.

Those who God didn't chose to save, lived a life of open rebellion and hatred of God. They heard the gospel message many times but rejected Gods free salvation, so they can fulfill their wicked desires. The reason they rejected the gospel is because they love their sin, and hate God.

Ah, But you say they could not come to truth no matter what, because it is foolish to them, ie God keeps the truth from them

now your saying they could understand it?

lol. talk about being all over the place..

Gods justice doesn't punish anyone.

Oh yes it does. When it sends them to out darkness, its Gods justice that does that.. Like @Ritajanice (who keeps loving your posts) you do not know God very well.

God is the One who casts sinners into the lake of fire, not His justice.

LOLOL

Ok, I am sorry I had to laugh.

Gods justice is his essence, his character, his person.

Please I beg of you. Put your calvinist playbook down

God is a lot of things at the same time, you Arminian's make out that He is nothing more than love. But He is also hate and wrath and He has countless other attributes all co existing at the same time in Him.

I am not Arminian. I do not know the man, the people. or have any part of them, I reject their works based Gospel.. To me, they are just as guilty of calvin

when you realise there are more to the church than calvinists or arminians, you will be able to open your eyes and actually hear what other people are saying,,

You cited an incriminating verse, "he who believes is not condemned but he who does not believe is already condemned" notice the verse is speaking in the present tense. The verse doesn't offer salvation to anyone, it's simply saying those who believe are saved and those who do not are not saved. There is no mention of some future decision that one makes, you're either chosen by God or your not.

lol. Your right, it does not offer salvation to anyone, the offer was made a few verses before this.

You make me laugh man,, You will do and say anything to help you continue in your belief system.. I have heard alot. but this comment here takes the cake.

All creation will bow before the Lord, because everyone believes in who He is, but they don't worship Him as their Lord and savior.

We do not get saved because we worship him, We get saved By grace THRAOUGH FAITH. when we hear the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and having believed, being sealed with the spirit of Promise, We are saved because we eat the bread from heaven, because we ask for the living water, because we recieve him (all words of the apostle John)

They will be at that judgment, because they heard the word. But loved their sin more. so they rejected the offer.

They are condemned, because they did not believe

The Demons believe and tremble, just as unbelievers believe and will tremble when they bow down begging for mercy but no mercy will be shown to them.

Yes they will. Because they rejected the savior,. Willingly and knowingly.

Your distorted Arminian theology, has blinded you to the truth. So you're not even able to discern the truth from lies any more.

Your distorted calvin theology has blinded you. And one more time, I am not arminian. Stop with your silly accusations. Where is your love? Start acting like a believer. or just prove maybe you are not even yourself a true believer

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Will they, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and his son Jacob, not Esau, all be saved as Paul prophesied? And does being saved mean being redeemed or born again, in Christ or grafted back in?

At a time in the future. a time that only God knows about. All of Israel on thei earth will look to the one they pierced. after they all have confessed their sin, the sin of their fathers, and received Jesus as their messiah..

rom 11:
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The they in all three of these verses Are Israel. the sons of Jacob, The Natural branches. The one who at this time are blinded in part. who have rejected their messiah and are now enemies of the gospel.

Paul quoted an OT prophecy concerning Israel (the nation)

The quote comes from Is 59, where Israel is confessing her sin, after being separated from God because of her sins against him. God said he will not forget them, he will come to them (Zion) and deliver them from their sins and their rebellion.

 

[One 2 question]

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:23-29).

So is this like, if Jesus was operated on because His kidney was shot and He received a kidney transplant, that replacement kidney is now a part of Jesus, and that kidney can now identify as Jesus?

If so, then me being inside of Jesus, a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob means I can identify as Abraham's offspring?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Typical.
No scripture.
Your OPINIONS really don't interest me.

BTW....ALL MEN means ALL MEN.

THE WORLD means THE WORLD.

And there are many STUPID persons who will not accept the gospel (re John 3:16).

So, that's the best you can do?

Fine.

amazing how far people will go to continue in their belief system..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that John 15:6 is a commandment as it clearly is not. Jesus is simply stating a fact, there is nothing in it to suggest that it's command to anyone. I understand "If anyone does not abide in Me", to mean that those who are not truly born again, will be exposed as false converts because they did not bare any fruit. So they are cast out as a withered branch.

John 15 is about producing fruit.

If we (believers) abide in him, we will produce fruit

if we (believers) do not, he will prune us, lift us up (in the translation it says cut off. but that is a bad translation) which is what people who tend vines due to vines that are laying to the ground, because they get choked and can not produce fruit.

its all about fruit, not about salvation.

And it is a command to us believers, if we want to produce fruit. we need to abide in him