Don’t Ignore Or Dismiss The LORD’s Return; You Could Be Caught Unprepared And Be Left Behind To Deal With The Beast = Matthew 24;32-42, Revelation 13

[ewq1938]

There are two types of Sickles = one for wheat and the one you mention for fruit.

BOTH sickles are for harvesting = cutting the stalk and/or the vine which severs the life of the fruit - in this case.

That's like saying the birth of a child is death because that's generally when it starts to age and eventually die. No, that's the wrong interpretation. The harvesting is not harmful or symbolic of death, what happens AFTER that can though.

 

[Illuminator]

No. Daniel is talking about the coming Messiah 2000 years ago. You are adding unto the Scriptures in order to decapitate this harmonious prophecy and propel it into the unknown. This is unprecedented in Scripture. In the Bible, an hour means a harmonious hour, even when used figuratively. A day means a harmonious day, even when used figuratively. A year means a harmonious year. 70 weeks means a harmonious 70 weeks. A thousand years means a harmonious thousand years, even when used figuratively.

This is what the cults do. With this type of loose ad-hoc hermeneutics you could literally make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. That is what destroys Pretrib. It cannot be found it must be taught. The fact is: you do not even have a proof-text never mind corroboration. It is simply not there. This is ridiculous that any believer would buy into this extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine.

A pre-trib Jesuit's private opinion is a scraped up obscurity. It was never accepted by the CC, and it didn't sell 50 million books. I don't know much about the Jesuits so I looked for "extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine."

Jesuits Home - Jesuits.org

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www.jesuits.org

When you find "extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine" in that site, please post a link to that page, not some fundie source with paranoid "Jesuit" obsessions.
The CC does not teach pre-trib theory.

The Rapture

Discover Catholic teachings on the Rapture. Pre, Mid, or Post? Find clarity on the 'end times'. Here's what the Church teaches about the apocalypse."

www.catholic.com

 

[David in NJ]

That's like saying the birth of a child is death because that's generally when it starts to age and eventually die. No, that's the wrong interpretation. The harvesting is not harmful or symbolic of death, what happens AFTER that can though.

"birth of a child" = dead man born = Born-Again = Living man dies = dust returns = Living spirit/soul Returns = 1 Thess 4:13

from Earth to Heaven = we are 'harvested' when we die
from Death to LIFE = we are harvested when we die
from putting off this Tent/Decay = to being Clothed in White Robes

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

 

[WPM]

A pre-trib Jesuit's private opinion is a scraped up obscurity. It was never accepted by the CC, and it didn't sell 50 million books. I don't know much about the Jesuits so I looked for "extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine."

Jesuits Home - Jesuits.org

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www.jesuits.org

When you find "extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine" in that site, please post a link to that page, not some fundie source with paranoid "Jesuit" obsessions.
The CC does not teach pre-trib theory.

The Rapture

Discover Catholic teachings on the Rapture. Pre, Mid, or Post? Find clarity on the 'end times'. Here's what the Church teaches about the apocalypse."

www.catholic.com

Pretrib is not in the Bible. That is why no Pretribber can furnish biblical support for its main tenets.

The Lord does not want there to be a separation between Catholics and Protestants. They need to be one, as the Lord is one with His Father in Heaven. To simply sweep the differences between them under the rug and act like everything is okay is an unbiblical attitude. The Church fought against Gnostics, Arians, Pelagians, Donatists, Albigensians and other heresies throughout her history. Where has the zeal gone to bring all people fully into the Kingdom of God? There needs to be, as Christ said, “one flock, [and] one shepherd” (John 10:16). Let us all work diligently for the reunion of all Christians.

The RCC is apostate and idolatrous. There can be no unity with her.

 

[David in NJ]

A pre-trib Jesuit's private opinion is a scraped up obscurity. It was never accepted by the CC, and it didn't sell 50 million books. I don't know much about the Jesuits so I looked for "extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine."

Jesuits Home - Jesuits.org

Top Stories Topics Justice Ignatian Spirituality Jesuit Life featured View All Podcast Is Jesus the Monster? Horror & Theology with Ryan Duns, SJ All AMDG Podcasts latest NEWSLETTER SIGN UP Now discern this An award-winning weekly reflections series sent straight to your inbox Subscribe Read all...

www.jesuits.org

When you find "extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine" in that site, please post a link to that page, not some fundie source with paranoid "Jesuit" obsessions.
The CC does not teach pre-trib theory.

The Rapture

Discover Catholic teachings on the Rapture. Pre, Mid, or Post? Find clarity on the 'end times'. Here's what the Church teaches about the apocalypse."

www.catholic.com

There is One Church under One Shepherd = The Body of Christ/His Elect/His Saints with Christ as the Head & Chief Shepherd

FLEE RCC = UC

 

[David in NJ]

Jerusalem and Mt Sion are two different places and things which is why the one verses speaks of them separately. I will reiterate that no mountains exist in heaven as they are mounds of rock and dirt formed through geological processes.

ONE Location = Instead, you have come to Mount Zion = to the city of the living God = the heavenly Jerusalem.

Instead of what??? = see location listed below
For you have not come to the mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”
The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”

Where is the NEW Location??
Mount Zion = to the city of the living God to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,
to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Top Secret = there are 8 'to' in verses 22-24 that only directs us one way = 'to' Heaven/God's Presence

8 is the number of New Beginnings

 

[The Light]

There are two types of Sickles = one for wheat and the one you mention for fruit.

BOTH sickles are for harvesting = cutting the stalk and/or the vine which severs the life of the fruit - in this case.

BOTH are symbolic of death = the End of the life of the fruit or stalk/wheat = it's life is severed and separated from the earth

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

Now let's think Gospel here = Why is the sickle in the Lord's hand if it is the Devil killing them for their refusal of the MoB?

Clue: "you are worth more then many sparrows"

Peace

The verses you quote are the great tribulation. That occurs at the 5th seal. Then there is the harvest that occurs with the coming Jesus at the 6th seal. No one is killed. The believers who are mostly of the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth and the unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God. That when the trumpets begin after the 7th seal is opened.

 

[ewq1938]

ONE Location = Instead, you have come to Mount Zion = to the city of the living God = the heavenly Jerusalem.

A heavenly Jerusalem is correct. A heavenly Mt. Sion is incorrect. There is no such thing.

 

[ewq1938]

The verses you quote are the great tribulation. That occurs at the 5th seal.

Not according to the 5th seal. It only has the dead wanting revenge and they are told to wait for when their brothers will die as they did. Those shall die in the GT BUT IT'S A FUTURE EVENT. The seal is VERY clear that it describes a time BEFORE the GT.

The GT is not found taking place in any part of the 5th seal.

 

[The Light]

Not according to the 5th seal. It only has the dead wanting revenge and they are told to wait for when their brothers will die as they did. Those shall die in the GT BUT IT'S A FUTURE EVENT. The seal is VERY clear that it describes a time BEFORE the GT.

The GT is not found taking place in any part of the 5th seal.

As I have said before, the 1st four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation, shown in Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which we can also see in Rev 14

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Just because you don't understand this, doesn't mean it is not so.

 

[Illuminator]

Pretrib is not in the Bible. That is why no Pretribber can furnish biblical support for its main tenets.

The RCC is apostate and idolatrous. There can be no unity with her.

Jesuits Homepage - Jesuits.org​

AMDG Podcast: How to Overcome Polarization With Amy Uelmen Spirit & Verse: A Prayer for the Bleak Midwinter Everyday Ignatian: Mirrors, Spirits and Holy Homes How Learning Languages Helps Us Grow Spiritually This is the preview of the “Hero Area View 4 items limit” View. Justice and Ecology Put...

www.jesuits.org
When you find "extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine" in that site, please post a link to that page, not some fundie source with paranoid "Jesuit" obsessions.

The CC does not teach pre-trib theory.

Pretrib is not in the Bible. That is why no Pretribber can furnish biblical support for its main tenets.

The RCC is apostate and idolatrous. There can be no unity with her.

So you refuse to agree with what we agree on. You're so rabid I can't even agree with you.

I asked you to support a baseless insult with evidence from a Jesuit source. You replied with another baseless insult out of prejudice and fear of being corrected. Catholics and Protestants are united by virtue of Baptism. Anti-Catholics touting the "apostate and idolatrous" canard are usually found to be from radial reformist fringe groups. Worse, some reject the Trinity, making them anti-Protestant.

amazon​

Try not to derail the thread with stupid flaming zingers.

 

[ewq1938]

As I have said before, the 1st four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.

The coming of the AC isn't one of the sorrows yet it is found in the first seal.

 

[WPM]

Jesuits Homepage - Jesuits.org​

AMDG Podcast: How to Overcome Polarization With Amy Uelmen Spirit & Verse: A Prayer for the Bleak Midwinter Everyday Ignatian: Mirrors, Spirits and Holy Homes How Learning Languages Helps Us Grow Spiritually This is the preview of the “Hero Area View 4 items limit” View. Justice and Ecology Put...

www.jesuits.org
When you find "extra-biblical Jesuit doctrine" in that site, please post a link to that page, not some fundie source with paranoid "Jesuit" obsessions.

The CC does not teach pre-trib theory.

So you refuse to agree with what we agree on. You're so rabid I can't even agree with you.

I asked you to support a baseless insult with evidence from a Jesuit source. You replied with another baseless insult out of prejudice and fear of being corrected. Catholics and Protestants are united by virtue of Baptism. Anti-Catholics touting the "apostate and idolatrous" canard are usually found to be from radial reformist fringe groups. Worse, some reject the Trinity, making them anti-Protestant.

View attachment 29461
amazon​

Try not to derail the thread with stupid flaming zingers.

The whole ethos of the Jesuits is to work secretly for the destruction of the Protest Faith. Why would they promote their evil?

The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. He interpreted the book of Revelation suggesting an end-time personal antichrist, a rebuilt Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem at the end of the Christian Era.

This doctrine began to fester within the system of Romanism which by now had a few dozen more erroneous and blasphemous doctrines introduced as biblical truths by its own leadership. But it wasn't until 1745AD that another Jesuit named Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz began to really distort the Scriptures through doctrines that perfectly fit the category of the kind of doctrines whose destructive results we are warned about by Paul. (2 Tim 4:3-4) .

Back in the 18th Century, there was a Spanish family living in Chile named the De Lacunzas. In 1731, they had a baby boy whom they named Manuel. After fifteen years at home, young Manuel boarded a ship bound for Spain. He wanted to join the holy orders of Romanism and become a Jesuit priest. Twenty-one years later, the Jesuits were expelled from Spain because of their brutality, and "Father" Manuel de Lucunza y Diaz was forced to leave the country. He made his new home in Imola, Italy, where he remained for the rest of his life. While in Imola, Lacunza claimed to be a converted Jew named "Rabbi Ben Ezra."

Under that alias, he pens down a doctrine which he calls "The coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty." He theorizes for the first time ever the end-time tribulation view. A book with his entire work was published in Spanish after his death.

In his book, he theorized that the Church would be "raptured" (taken up to be with the Lord) 45 days before Jesus' real return to Earth. During that 45-day period (while the Church was in heaven with the Lord), God would judge the wicked who were still remaining on Earth. This Jesuit "Rabbi" theorized the earliest mini-tribulation, pre-trib rapture view on record! He derived his view primarily from a faulty interpretation of the 1290 and the 1335 days of Dan 12:11-12 (1335-1290 = 45). De Lacunza died in Imola in 1801 and that should have been the end of his theory. But after his death, Lacunza's views were taught in Spain where his book was published in 1812. A little over 14 years later in 1827 his book was translated into English by a Scottish radical named Edward Irving. Irving was the founder of an early charismatic cult, the Irvingites. He published Lacunza's view in his paper, "The Morning Watch."

 

[WPM]

That's not true. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus of Matthew 24. Jesus sends His angels and remains in the clouds. He does not come to the earth but returns to heaven for the marriage supper.

As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.”

What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.

I see the seals, trumpet, and bowl judgments as parallel recaps. The parallels reveal the increasing degrees of intensity of the intra-Advent conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, culminating in a great final gathering for battle and the climactic return of Christ to obliterate all rebellion.

I believe the thousand years is a figurative period running from Christ's first resurrection and ends just before the one and one general resurrection/judgment. I associate Satan's little season with the release of the mystery of iniquity/beast/antichrist just before the return of Christ. I believe the mark is real with spiritual. There are more references to the mark of God in Revelation. Most people accept that as spiritual. They are marks of ownership in my estimation.

I believe the biggest issue that divides between Amillennialism and Premillennialism is the issue of corroboration. Premillennialism lacks serious corroboration for all of its fundamental tenets, whereas Amil is awash with multiple Scripture for all of its core beliefs. This was a big reason in causing me to change.

 

[Illuminator]

The whole ethos of the Jesuits is to work secretly for the destruction of the Protest Faith. Why would they promote their evil?

I asked twice to show from a Jesuit site your ridiculous accusations. Instead, you go on with more baseless insults for the third time. Your pride equals your cowardice.

The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. He interpreted the book of Revelation suggesting an end-time personal antichrist, a rebuilt Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem at the end of the Christian Era.

It doesn't matter what some obscure Jesuit wrote 432 years ago. It never caught on, didn't sell 50 million copies and was never accepted by the Church. I said that three times. But that doesn't stop you from senseless ranting.

whereas Amil is awash with multiple Scripture for all of its core beliefs. This was a big reason in causing me to change.

You're so rabid you can't see straight. As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists, as do most Protestants. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE JESUITS, an off-topic flaming zinger. There is no secret "Jesuit doctrine", invented by paranoid fundies. They taught openly. Jesuits are not even mentioned in the catechism on the section of the Second Coming, but you are too scared to see it for yourself.
675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 7

No mention of Jesuits.

" the "apostate and idolatrous" is an invented doctrine the Bible rules out. Paul never says anything about the Church overcome with evil, in fact, Jesus says it can never happen. So you have to invent anti-biblical lies and historical falsehoods to make it fit your anti-Catholic theology. You talk about "end time persecution" while inflicting it on Catholics with stupid off-topic flaming zingers and rants about some obscure Jesuit that had "0" influence on official Catholic teaching.

WESTERN WORLD AT WAR WITH CATHOLICS - Catholic League

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on recent attacks on Catholics in North America and England:

www.catholicleague.org

You are a cog in the same machine.

 

[WPM]

I asked twice to show from a Jesuit site your ridiculous accusations. Instead, you go on with more baseless insults for the third time.

It doesn't matter what some obscure Jesuit wrote 432 years ago. It never caught on, didn't sell 50 million copies and was never accepted by the Church. I said that three times. But that doesn't stop you from senseless ranting.


Again, you object to what we agree on. You're so rabid you can't see straight.

It never caught on? Hello! Read your own posts. Look around you today and see how this invention has corrupted the minds of men and sold them a lie.

 

[David in NJ]

The verses you quote are the great tribulation. That occurs at the 5th seal. Then there is the harvest that occurs with the coming Jesus at the 6th seal. No one is killed. The believers who are mostly of the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth and the unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God. That when the trumpets begin after the 7th seal is opened.

YES, when the Lord Returns, some Saints of His Body/Church will be alive on earth = at His Coming.

These Saints will be some Jews & many Gentiles in Christ = Jesus said so = make sure you do not call Him a liar.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth = ALL Nations = Jew & Gentile = One Gospel = One Rachel = Jew & Gentile

 

[WPM]

YES, when the Lord Returns, some Saints of His Body/Church will be alive on earth = at His Coming.

These Saints will be some Jews & many Gentiles in Christ = Jesus said so = make sure you do not call Him a liar.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth = ALL Nations = Jew & Gentile = One Gospel = One Rachel = Jew & Gentile

But the second coming is not the end in Premil.

 

[David in NJ]

But the second coming is not the end in Premil.

What is your understanding of His Second Coming?

 

[WPM]

What is your understanding of His Second Coming?

It is the end! The coming of the Lord (the end of the age) is the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil and the end of time. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection.