Does God love burning people in hell?

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FaithWillDo

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Did God love those in Sodom He burned alive?
Dear Jack,
Yes, Christ loves all mankind and He will eventually save them:

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Joe
 

Jack

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Dear Jack,
Yes, Christ loves all mankind and He will eventually save them:

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Joe
The NT says you're deceived.
 

FaithWillDo

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Jesus said much about humans burning forever. Take it up with Him.
Dear Jack,
You are understanding scripture in a carnal way. God's Word is written in the spiritual language of Christ.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER LANGUAGE will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The spiritual language of Christ uses spiritual symbols which carry meanings that are different from what "man's wisdom teaches" (1Cor 2:13). Fire is one of those symbols. It means the judgment of Christ. It is not literal fire nor is it eternal. Christ's judgment lasts only until its purpose is satisfied:

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Joe
 

Jack

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Dear Jack,
You are understanding scripture in a carnal way. God's Word is written in the spiritual language of Christ.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER LANGUAGE will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


The spiritual language of Christ uses spiritual symbols which carry meanings that are different from what "man's wisdom teaches" (1Cor 2:13). Fire is one of those symbols. It means the judgment of Christ. It is not literal fire nor is it eternal. Christ's judgment lasts only until its purpose is satisfied:

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Joe
Do you believe John 3:16 is only "spiritual"? lol
 

Jack

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Dear Jack,
Exactly what verses of the NT are you referring to?

Joe
Several! To start with:
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

FaithWillDo

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Several! To start with:
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Dear Jack,
Again... Fire is the symbol for Christ's judgment. He judges us to save us. As for the phrase "for ever and ever" (aion aion), it should be translated as "ages of the ages".

I can tell you with certainty that the chief priests and elders who crucified Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire. But look what Christ tells them:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

With Christ, it was never "if" the chief priests and elders would be saved. It was only a matter of "when". The chief priests and elders will not be heirs to the promise. They will not be First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. They will not have life DURING the ages and they will not reign with Him. But they will be saved by fire at the "consummation" of the ages because He loves them every bit has much as He loves you or me. They simply were not blessed.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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Thank you for writing, Joe. Interesting Concept.
Dear MatthewG,
If you have any interest in learning more about this "concept", I have a website where I teach much more about it. The website is: www.greatmysteryofchrist.com

I suggest you start your reading with paper A. The Great Mystery of the Church.

I hope you check it out.

Joe
 

Jack

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Dear Jack,
Yes, mankind's salvation is spiritual and not physical. We must be changed from within to be saved.
Joe
Scripture please.

Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
 

Jack

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Dear Jack,
Again... Fire is the symbol for Christ's judgment.
That's Kingdom Hall doctrine. But not Biblical!
He judges us to save us. As for the phrase "for ever and ever" (aion aion), it should be translated as "ages of the ages".

I can tell you with certainty that the chief priests and elders who crucified Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire. But look what Christ tells them:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

With Christ, it was never "if" the chief priests and elders would be saved. It was only a matter of "when". The chief priests and elders will not be heirs to the promise. They will not be First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. They will not have life DURING the ages and they will not reign with Him. But they will be saved by fire at the "consummation" of the ages because He loves them every bit has much as He loves you or me. They simply were not blessed.

Joe
Satan loves it when his messengers convince people there is no everlasting fire that Jesus clearly warned us about!

Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
 
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MatthewG

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Jack

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No proof whatsoever that Luke 16 is a parable! Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell!
 

FaithWillDo

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Scripture please.

Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Dear Jack,
Yes, the Elect's physical body will be transformed into a spiritual body upon their resurrection from the grave. They are given that spiritual body because they have already been transformed spiritually. Scripture calls this spiritual transformation "conversion".

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Christ made this statement to Peter. Peter was one of the 120 who were converted on the Day of Pentecost when He received the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the full payment of the Spirit which the down payment of the Early Rain foreshadowed. The Latter Rain will destroy the carnal nature of a believer (Rev chapter 18) and will give the believer the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. This must happen to be transformed spiritually (converted).

Revelation chapter 19 and the first part of chapter 20 teaches this spiritual conversion process. When it is completed within a believer, it is called the "First Resurrection" (Rev 20:5-6). This resurrection is the spiritual resurrection which precedes the bodily resurrection that is shown later in chapters 20 and 21.

Christ mentions it here:

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In this scripture, Christ is teaching about the spiritual resurrection (First Resurrection) which occurs when a believer receives the Latter Rain. Once a believer receives the Latter Rain and is converted, they are "born again" and will be made spiritually alive. Once this event happens in the life of a person, they will never spiritually die again because they are covered by the blood of Christ. It was sin which caused the person to spiritually die in the first place, but after they are converted, they can no longer spiritually die even though they will later physically die. Then upon their resurrection from the grave, they will be given a new spiritual body to match who they are spiritually (a child of God).

Here is where Paul mentions that the Gentiles were being converted:

Acts 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Joe
 
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FaithWillDo

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That's Kingdom Hall doctrine. But not Biblical!

Satan loves it when his messengers convince people there is no everlasting fire that Jesus clearly warned us about!

Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Dear Jack,
Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ which uses spiritual symbols to teach its messages. If you can't believe that truth, there is nothing I can say to help you accept it. A person must receive the Latter Rain for their spiritual blindness to be healed. Once it is healed, they will have "eyes that can see" and "ears that can ear". Only then will the spiritual language of scripture will open up to them and they will see Christ (God's Word) for the first time.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ appears to a new believer in the flesh after they receive the Early Rain. This means that they can only see Christ carnally. From that carnal understanding, the true Christ will remain concealed. Because all called out believers remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, it is easy for Satan to masquerade as Christ and deceive them. Satan does this through the spirit of anti-Christ. It is that spirit which devoured the entire church shortly after the Apostles died. This is the apostasy which Paul said was coming to the church. After the church became apostate near the end of the 1st century, it has spiritually killed all new believers who have been "called out from the world". When Christ comes a second time to them (if they are one of His Elect), He will pour out the Latter Rain upon them which will heal their spiritual blindness. Only then will the true Christ appear to them. This is their moment of salvation/redemption/conversion (First Resurrection).

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares teaches this truth which I have explained above. The story of the possessed man in Mat 8:28-32 also teaches this truth.

Christ also teaches this truth in the scripture below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14), they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns. This is what caused the church to become apostate and why it is necessary for Christ to "come again" to His Elect. When He comes to them, He will bring salvation and conversion.

There really is no point in continuing our discussion if you are not starting to see Christ spiritually.

Paul had the same trouble with the churches he started:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal...

Until a believer receives the Latter Rain and is converted, the truth of scripture (even the milk of the Word) will remain concealed to them.

Joe
 
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Jack

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No proof whatsoever that Luke 16 is a parable! Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell!
Dear Jack,
Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ which uses spiritual symbols to teach its messages. If you can't believe that truth, there is nothing I can say to help you accept it. A person must receive the Latter Rain for their spiritual blindness to be healed. Once it is healed, they will have "eyes that can see" and "ears that can ear". Only then will the spiritual language of scripture will open up to them and they will see Christ (God's Word) for the first time.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ appears to a new believer in the flesh after they receive the Early Rain. This means that they can only see Christ carnally. From that carnal understanding, the true Christ will remain concealed. Because all called out believers remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, it is easy for Satan to masquerade as Christ and deceive them. Satan does this through the spirit of anti-Christ. It is that spirit which devoured the entire church shortly after the Apostles died. This is the apostasy which Paul said was coming to the church. After the church became apostate near the end of the 1st century, it has spiritually killed all new believers who have been "called out from the world". When Christ comes a second time to them (if they are one of His Elect), He will pour out the Latter Rain upon them which will heal their spiritual blindness. Only then will the true Christ appear to them. This is their moment of salvation/redemption/conversion (First Resurrection).

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares teaches this truth which I have explained above. The story of the possessed man in Mat 8:28-32 also teaches this truth.

Christ also teaches this truth in the scripture below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14), they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns. This is what caused the church to become apostate and why it is necessary for Christ to "come again" to His Elect. When He comes to them, He will bring salvation and conversion.

There really is no point in continuing our discussion if you are not starting to see Christ spiritually.

Paul had the same trouble with the churches he started:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal...

Until a believer receives the Latter Rain and is converted, the truth of scripture (even the milk of the Word) will remain concealed to them.

Joe
"No proof whatsoever that Luke 16 is a parable!"
 

Jack

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Dear Jack,
Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ which uses spiritual symbols to teach its messages. If you can't believe that truth, there is nothing I can say to help you accept it. A person must receive the Latter Rain for their spiritual blindness to be healed. Once it is healed, they will have "eyes that can see" and "ears that can ear". Only then will the spiritual language of scripture will open up to them and they will see Christ (God's Word) for the first time.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ appears to a new believer in the flesh after they receive the Early Rain. This means that they can only see Christ carnally. From that carnal understanding, the true Christ will remain concealed. Because all called out believers remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, it is easy for Satan to masquerade as Christ and deceive them. Satan does this through the spirit of anti-Christ. It is that spirit which devoured the entire church shortly after the Apostles died. This is the apostasy which Paul said was coming to the church. After the church became apostate near the end of the 1st century, it has spiritually killed all new believers who have been "called out from the world". When Christ comes a second time to them (if they are one of His Elect), He will pour out the Latter Rain upon them which will heal their spiritual blindness. Only then will the true Christ appear to them. This is their moment of salvation/redemption/conversion (First Resurrection).

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares teaches this truth which I have explained above. The story of the possessed man in Mat 8:28-32 also teaches this truth.

Christ also teaches this truth in the scripture below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14), they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns. This is what caused the church to become apostate and why it is necessary for Christ to "come again" to His Elect. When He comes to them, He will bring salvation and conversion.

There really is no point in continuing our discussion if you are not starting to see Christ spiritually.

Paul had the same trouble with the churches he started:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal...

Until a believer receives the Latter Rain and is converted, the truth of scripture (even the milk of the Word) will remain concealed to them.

Joe
Spiritual language? Sounds just like Kingdom Hall unbelief.
 

Brakelite

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"Everlasting", "eternal" "forever and ever" ...

As is "eternal" life!
2 Peter 2:6
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.

KJV Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Isn't that interesting. Peter says Sodom and Gomorrah are examples and a warning for the people of earth, they shall suffer the same fate... Eternal fire. Do you know anyone who has been to Israel? Did they see Sodom still burning?
.
 

Jack

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2 Peter 2:6
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.

KJV Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Isn't that interesting. Peter says Sodom and Gomorrah are examples and a warning for the people of earth, they shall suffer the same fate... Eternal fire. Do you know anyone who has been to Israel? Did they see Sodom still burning?
.
It's clearly referring to the PEOPLE of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you don't believe in "eternal punishment", how can you believe in "eternal life"? Same Greek word!
 

Brakelite

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"Everlasting", "eternal" "forever and ever" ...

As is "eternal" life!
The word forever does not always mean what you want it to. See Exodus 21:6, 1 Samuel 1:22, Jonah 2:6.
The word “eternal” (Hebrew ‘olam; Greek aion, aionios) carries different meanings, depending on the immediate context. For example, when associated with God (Deut. 33:27, “everlasting”), the word expresses His eternity. When related to human beings (Exod. 21:6, “forever”), the word is limited by their life span. When qualifying fire (Matt. 18:8, Matt. 25:41, “everlasting”), it implies that the fire will not go out until it fully consumes what is being burned. This means that the “eternal fire” will be eternal in the sense that it will consume the wicked completely and irreversibly, leaving them “ ‘neither root nor branch’ ” (Mal. 4:1, NKJV).

The theory of an everlasting punishment of the wicked has serious implications. If the wicked are punished forever, then evil will never be eradicated. Also, all human life derives from God (Deut. 32:39, Ps. 36:9), who has “ ‘ “no pleasure in the death of the wicked” ’ ” (Ezek. 33:11, NKJV). Why then would He continue to grant life to the wicked to suffer in endless torment? Would it not be much more reasonable for Him just to end their existence? If the wicked will be punished “according to their works” (Rev. 20:12, NKJV), why then should a short human life be punished endlessly?
 
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