That's not exactly what Hebrews says, "there remains no more sacrifice", referring to the series of offerings under the Law.
Much love!
DOES BELIEF THAT ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED MEAN WE CAN SIN?
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Much love!
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Here are some verses for you.
John 6:39 - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. *Jesus loses nothing.
John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
NOSAS can be just as dangerous of a doctrine as OSAS for "nominal" or pseudo Christians. Now find me a NT verse that unequivocally teaches that a really saved person really lost their salvation.
What I like to do is go over each and every one of your verses and explain them using what is taught in the NT.
You know....the NT is not made up of verses but is a complete though.
You posted too many and my time is limited...
So I'll take the first 2 and go through them.
And then I'll post some verses that JESUS SAID.
Yours:
John 6:39 - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. *Jesus loses nothing.
1. The will of the Father is that Jesus lose nothing.
2. But that Jesus raises IT up on the last day. It refers to everything that the Father gave the Son to do. From the cross Jesus stated IT IS FINISHED... WHAT is finished? What Jesus was sent to do. The will of the Father for the atonement to take place.
It also refers to persons. The persons that were handed over to Jesus from God Father for salvation will be raised on the last day.
IF they REMAIN IN CHRIST.
There are IF's in the NT.
Here's one:
1 Colossians 1:22-23
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard
Another:
John 15:10 JESUS said:
IF you keep my commandments you will abide in My love.
3. Notice that the word BELIEVE is always in the present tense.
One must BE BELIEVING at the time of his death.
1 Peter 1:7-9
7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; IOW,,,when Jesus returns.
8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
When Jesus come back, we would believe in Him and love Him, and receive as the OUTCOME OF OUR FAITH...
the salvation of our soul.
*******************************************************
Your verse:
John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
1. A person could decide to walk away from God.
Verses from Jesus coming up.
2. UNLESS:
1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
You could explain my explanation just as I explained your verses.
However, this is never done.
*******************************************************************
Now let's see what Jesus said.
HOW to reconcile these two ideas??
Did Jesus know He was creating a conflict??
I'm sure He was NOT.
Luke 8:13
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, [they] receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
JESUS said they believe for A WHILE and then FALL AWAY.
Luke 15.24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again;
Jesus, in His parable which He used to teach doctrine,
stated that the son came to life AGAIN.
The son had life
LOST IT
and then found it again.
It would be nice if now you explained away Luke 8 and Luke 15.
I like to believe what Jesus taught.
If HE says we could believe for a while,
and come to life AGAIN...
it must be true.
Anyone who thinks they can freely sin needs to take a really good look at themself to see if they are actually in the faith, because that's a huge red flag.
If I'm not different from before, if my heart is not turned towards God, what business have I saying I'm born again?
Much love!
You don't really need any other verse but this, the statement is certain. Sealed unto the day of redemption. God put His seal of ownership on us, and it's hubris to think we are mightier than God, as if we can violate His seal. Nope, no man can overturn what God has done!
And the only argument that can be made against this is to deny that it says what it says.
Much love!
Teaching someone that you can lose salvation will cause them to try to earn the keeping of it, causing them to fall from Grace into legalism, which is not a spiritual pursuit.
So legalism is a fleshy work, meaning those who believe they can lose their salvation will have this push towards the flesh inside them, and will be just as conflicted as their view.
Much love!
FearTheLord
Member
Faith without works is dead. So can we remain justified if we let our faith die by ceasing from works of obedience?
Does dead faith provide access to grace?
The answers are NO. I've shown this from Galatians 5:4 already.
[Gal 5:4 NASB95] 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
[Jas 2:24, 26 NASB95] 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. ... 26 For just as the body without [the] spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
[Jas 2:24, 26 NASB95] 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. ... 26 For just as the body without [the] spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Your faith dies from a lack of works? That kind of thinking would be to fall from grace into legalism, a work of the flesh, which does not justify.
In point of fact, if you have a living faith, it will be accompanied by works, because you will have been reborn.
Demons believe. But they are not regenerate.
Much love!
FearTheLord
Member
This is exactly the danger that commentaries pose. Hebrews 10:25 has nothing to do with forsaking congregational "worship" service. Worship just means bowing. There is no evidence that took place in the 1st century Church.
Hebrews 10:25 is about forsaking the gathering together of the elect, which is the resurrection of the Body of Christ on the approaching Day of the Lord.
This resurrection-gathering is abandoned through voluntary sin; in the case of the Hebrews, specifically by folding to the will of the Judaizers and returning to the Law of Moses.
[Heb 10:25 NASB95] 25 not forsaking our own assembling[G1997] together,[G1997] as is the habit of some, but encouraging [one another;] and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
[2Th 2:1 NASB95] 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering[G1997] together[G1997] to Him,
[2Th 2:1 NASB95] 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering[G1997] together[G1997] to Him,
It's really just talking about voluntary sin, and we're not under the scrupulous burden of the Law anymore, so unintentional sin should not be unavoidable (1Cor 10:13). That's why we're given the Holy Spirit, to bring to remembrance the way in which we should walk, as we walk.
[1Pe 5:2 NASB95] 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily,[G1596] according to [the will of] God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
[1Co 10:13 NASB95] 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
[Jhn 14:26 NASB95] 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
[1Co 10:13 NASB95] 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
[Jhn 14:26 NASB95] 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Psalms 66
17I cried out to him with my mouth;
his praise was on my tongue.
18 If I had cherished sin in my heart,
the Lord would not have listened;
19 but God has surely listened
and has heard my prayer.
17I cried out to him with my mouth;
his praise was on my tongue.
18 If I had cherished sin in my heart,
the Lord would not have listened;
19 but God has surely listened
and has heard my prayer.
FearTheLord
Member
Read James 2:26 again. Since when does a body create its own spirit?
Peter also understood that faith alone was insufficient. Faith needs to be supplemented.
[2Pe 1:5-7 NASB95] 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in [your] moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in [your] knowledge, self-control, and in [your] self-control, perseverance, and in [your] perseverance, godliness, 7 and in [your] godliness, brotherly kindness, and in [your] brotherly kindness, love.
These aren't my personal opinions I'm presenting to you. These are the words of Jesus' apostles.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Wow. These NOSAS folks are fighting tooth and claw to keep their eternal insecurity.
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This is for you and @mailmandan .....
WHY do you make it a choice of grace or works?
WHY do you think that those that follow Jesus will fall into legalism?
Have you ever considered that it is both?
Synergism.
It takes two.
I don't know of ANY verse in the NT that speaks of JESUS doing EVERYTHING....
and we are left with doing NOTHING.
Jesus died on the cross for us...
It's up to us to do the rest to make HIS KINGDOM a good place to live in.
It is WRONG for you to pit grace with good works.
We receive grace to enable us TO DO GOOD WORKS.
WE are God's hands and feet.
1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve,
Matthew 25:34-40
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise, grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise, work is no longer work.
When did I say that?
Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You can't have it both ways.
Who said that? Is choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation doing nothing?
I don't pit what we are by with what we are saved for against each other. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
Sure. After we have been saved through faith.
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
This is what we are saved FOR and not by.
After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance.
The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9) When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So, it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life.
*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen! James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
IF is a confirmation.
The word "IF" here is a confirmation, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith." That is, continuance would show that the person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with, and they really have been reconciled.
It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate thereby that they are genuine believers.
Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).
1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This does not mean flawlessly obey the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law. Only Jesus Christ has done that. Saving belief continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.
There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin. (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin. (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin. (glorification)
This is true of all genuine believers.
In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand) His sheep have eternal security. In contrast with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, (sounds like Roman Catholicism) and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
The words "the faith" here in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again.
In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced by the Roman Catholic church in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids its clergy to marry. This same church has other doctrines of demons such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..
CONTINUED..
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain the reasons.
First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So, the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart and the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience. So, "no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, withered away" does not represent saving belief. (Matthew 13:5-6; Luke 8:6; 13)
John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.
CONTEXT - All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) People in the NOSAS camp will try to use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)
Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course, Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NAS).
I explained them and not explained them away.
We need to make sure that we have the proper understanding of what Jesus taught based on exegesis and not eisegesis.
ElectedbyHim
Member
First off "faith without works" is from James. James was writing to the scattered Jews not the Body of Christ.
[Eph 2:8-10 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are saved by grace without works
[2Co 5:10 KJV] 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
