Do you believe this is...

[Taken]

We still arrive at the conclusion you are unable to prove angels can sin.

F2F

I have zero requirement to “prove” anything to you. No one forces you to believe scripture.

2 Pet 2:
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

 

[Taken]

Lets try this another way shall we @Jay Ross @Taken @marks @MA2444 @Lordsflower

The Masters words:

"for they (Saints) cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection" Luke 20:36

THEY…are: soul saved and born again
THEY…”LIKE”….angels shall live forever.

Cannot die

Not news, not in debate.

Equal to the Angels in Nature

Angels are NOT Natural beings…
Your comment is irrelevant.

"by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 2 Peter 1:4

Yep….natural MORTAL men, have an offering to become made ALIVE FOR EVER…

You believe there is no escape from sin and death? You believe corruption in Heaven?

Context is correct i.e Angels, Divine Nature, unable to sin and die.

Here is the question which needs answering:

If immortality and eternity if promised through such a divine nature what is in that nature which may mean you can sin and die?

If that Divine Nature is the source of evil why would it be promised? For what benefit?

F2F

 

[Jay Ross]

Thanks Jay, that was a enlightening point - now do you have any that relate to the OP?

F2F

As I said you are miss reading what is said in Ps 103:22. In Heaven at this present time, there are God's Angels/messengers and Satan's Angels/messengers. In Isaiah 24:21-22 Isaiah points out that God will in the future judge all of the Heavenly Hosts and those who do not measure up, who have rebelled against God alongside Satan will be kicked out of heaven in around 20 years' time and at the same time all of the kings of the earth will be judged upon the earth and those who do not measure up will be gathered together with the judged Heavenly Hosts and imprisoned in a pit, described as a Bottomless Pit in the Book of Revelations, for many days to await the time of their punishment.

Now, you are the one who is claiming that all of God's Angels do not sin as such, which I would agree with, but you ignore the fact that Satan and the Angels rebelled but at the moment they still are able to come and go to heaven.

That was why I said that you had an English comprehension problem. In other words, your logic did not match up with God's word.

Goodbye

 

[Lordsflower]

My name was brought to my attention here in an alert.

Angels most certainly can sin.
See 2nd Peter 2. There are also those who God insures shall not. See 1st Timothy 5. And Matthew 25 reminds us of the eternal fire God prepared for the devil and his angels.
There's more in Jude 6.

 

[Taken]

You believe there is no escape from sin and death?

ALL mortal mankind’s life IS BLOOD.
ALL mortal mankind, MUST, SHALL, DIE.
Yes, there IS an ESCAPE FROM Sin…
It is called FORGIVENESS.
No, there is NOT an escape from MORTAL DEATH…

You believe corruption in Heaven?

Are you asking or telling?

Context is correct i.e Angels, Divine Nature, unable to sin and die.

Angels are able to sin.
Angels are spirits.
Spirit death and mortal death both exist, in regard to specific…spirit and body.

Here is the question which needs answering:

If immortality and eternity if promised through such a divine nature what is in that nature which may mean you can sin and die?

If that Divine Nature is the source of evil why would it be promised? For what benefit?

F2F

God IS SPIRIT…that which applies to God…
IS SPIRITUAL….be it life, death, communication, offerings, gifts, His works, etc.

If … a man, an angel IS NOT WITH GOD…
He IS AGAINST God…
He IS DEAD TO God…
He SHALL BE forever Separated FROM God.

Doesn’t matter if you believe it, understand it, deny it, want to argue about it…

No one can understand it for you.

 

[face2face]

2 Pet 2:
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

"God spared not the messengers that sinned"

Who were they?

We know they were human, but what of their identity?

And why are they figuratively chained in darkness now totally powerless?

When did this happen?

You see its plural "angels"...not a single rebel Angel!

In 2 Peter 2 how many OT Bible Stories are listed?

In 2 Peter 2 you have reference to "Although these false teachers promise such people freedom, they themselves are enslaved to immorality"

Would human messengers who sin align with false teachers?

F2F

 

[face2face]

As I said you are miss reading what is said in Ps 103:22.

Firstly, its verse 21 which refers to the Angels doing His Commands

103:21 Praise the Lord, all you warriors of his, you servants of his who carry out his desires! Ps 103:21.

All of His Heavenly Servants carry out His desires - no exception!

In Heaven at this present time, there are God's Angels/messengers and Satan's Angels/messengers.

Well this is half right!

In Isaiah 24:21-22 Isaiah points out that God will in the future judge all of the Heavenly Hosts and those who do not measure up, who have rebelled against God alongside Satan will be kicked out of heaven in around 20 years' time and at the same time all of the kings of the earth will be judged upon the earth

Well lets test this Jay.

Isaiah 24:21 At that time the Lord will punish the heavenly forces in the heavens and the earthly kings on the earth. 24:22 They will be imprisoned in a pit, locked up in a prison, and after staying there for a long time, they will be punished. Is 24:21–22.

Firstly, lets go to the translators to see what they believe this text is implying;

tn Heb “the host of the height in the height.” The “host of the height/heaven” refers to the heavenly luminaries (stars and planets, see, among others, Deut 4:19; 17:3; 2 Kgs 17:16; 21:3, 5; 23:4–5; 2 Chr 33:3, 5) that populate the divine/heavenly assembly in mythological and prescientific Israelite thought (see Job 38:7; Isa 14:13).

Now Jay, what do you think was in the mind of the writer when thinking of who will be judged, placed in the ground and locked up until they will be punished?

The context is "The Lord who commands armies will hold a banquet for all the nations on this mountain" Is 25:6.

Do me a favour - show me in this chapter anywhere that fallen angels that sin are being judged? Show me the context, whats the story?

And you think I have a comprehension issue?

If you are going to refer to a chapter please at least speak to what the chapter is dealing with and not some fanciful notion you have given it.

If God is to rule from Mount Zion in Jerusalem who are the planets (high places) in the earth? Yes Jay, the Nations (and everything that exalts itself above God) will be brought into judgement at Zion.

Jay, I can't believe you would ascribe planetary symbols to angels that sin - crazy nonsense.

F2F

 

[Jay Ross]

Firstly, its verse 21 which refers to the Angels doing His Commands

103:21 Praise the Lord, all you warriors of his, you servants of his who carry out his desires! Ps 103:21.

All of His Heavenly Servants carry out His desires - no exception!



Well this is half right!


Well lets test this Jay.

Isaiah 24:21 At that time the Lord will punish the heavenly forces in the heavens and the earthly kings on the earth. 24:22 They will be imprisoned in a pit, locked up in a prison, and after staying there for a long time, they will be punished. Is 24:21–22.

Firstly, lets go to the translators to see what they believe this text is implying;

tn Heb “the host of the height in the height.” The “host of the height/heaven” refers to the heavenly luminaries (stars and planets, see, among others, Deut 4:19; 17:3; 2 Kgs 17:16; 21:3, 5; 23:4–5; 2 Chr 33:3, 5) that populate the divine/heavenly assembly in mythological and prescientific Israelite thought (see Job 38:7; Isa 14:13).

Now Jay, what do you think was in the mind of the writer when thinking of who will be judged, placed in the ground and locked up until they will be punished?

The context is "The Lord who commands armies will hold a banquet for all the nations on this mountain" Is 25:6.

Do me a favour - show me in this chapter anywhere that fallen angels that sin are being judged? Show me the context, whats the story?

And you think I have a comprehension issue?

If you are going to refer to a chapter please at least speak to what the chapter is dealing with and not some fanciful notion you have given it.

If God is to rule from Mount Zion in Jerusalem who are the planets (high places) in the earth? Yes Jay, the Nations (and everything that exalts itself above God) will be brought into judgement at Zion.

Jay, I can't believe you would ascribe planetary symbols to angels that sin - crazy nonsense.

F2F

It seems that you are off topic trying to prove people wrong. Do you have a split personality because I often wonder which personality that I am conversing with.

This interaction is going nowhere productive.

Goodbye

 

[face2face]

It seems that you are off topic trying to prove people wrong. Do you have a split personality because I often wonder which personality that I am conversing with.

This interaction is going nowhere productive.

Goodbye

Your misquoting of Isaiah 24 and your off topic reference to Psalm 103:22 is rather telling Jay.

Happy for you to study these familiar sections of Scripture and return with something more substantial.

So far in this discussion we have had Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28; 2 Peter 2 & Jude 6 as the evidence to suggest Angels in Heaven sin and yet only one verse reads as such, but lacks the context to prove it.

I believe the word is flimsy.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Also, why is it when trying to prove this fallen angels existence - they are compliant powerless beings chained in darkness reserved for judgement.

Sounds terrifying!

 

[Kabone]

Blasphemy to defile God's Dwelling place. You did not refer to the Scripture because you know you cannot prove such claims merely smear the record with your false opinions.


More of the same.

Boy the spiritual smarts are low on this subject at the moment.

F2F

I believe it’s genesis 6 and exodus 20. Wouldn’t it also have been the same realm where Lucifer developed his pride?

 

[Taken]

"God spared not the messengers that sinned"

Who were they?

Seriousnesss aside…
…maybe Casper and friends.

We know they were human, but what of their identity?

“We …”You know they were human.”
Since “you know”, you reveal their identity.”

And why are they figuratively chained in darkness

You tell us, since I can not see in darkness.

why…now totally powerless?

That happens when Power is cut off.

When did this happen?

When the Power WAS cut off.

You see its plural "angels"...not a single rebel Angel!

Some (plural) have generators others (plural) do not.

In 2 Peter 2 how many OT Bible Stories are listed?

I not an expert counter… maybe you should ask a mathematician.

In 2 Peter 2 you have reference to "Although these false teachers promise such people freedom, they themselves are enslaved to immorality"

You sharing news about your “false teachers”, is not an interest to me.

Would human messengers who sin align with false teachers?

You should ask a “secretary” per their experience.

 

[Wrangler]

Is His Will always done in Heaven?

So do His Angels "always" do His Pleasure?
Is His Will "always" done in Heaven?

Many of you reading this would say NO!

I also say no. 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 is what I call Christianity's End Game. It says when all things are under his authority, then the Son will put himself under God’s authority.

It means not all things are yet under his authority for death is the last enemy to be destroyed is death, which means there are other enemies to be destroyed before death. It truly is inescapable logic.

In addition, we know that the rebellious angels rebeled in heaven, meaning heaven was also contaminated by sin. From this POV, what we call "Original Sin" is a misnomor. It is the first humans sinned but humans were not the first of God's creation to sin. A consequence of the angelic rebellion is the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

Finally, recall the Lord's Prayer. We don't pray for what we already have but when we are in need of. Your Kingdom come, your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. Many take this to mean God's will is already done in heaven but the angelic rebellion proves otherwise. I more mature take is that we are praying that Christianity's End Game will be completed, where all God's enemies are defeated by Christ - both on Earth and in Heaven.

Hope this helps.

 

[Wrangler]

So who was the Adversary?
Any thoughts...we know it wasn't a fallen angel so who?

Huh? You deny Satan is the Adversary who is a fallen angel?

 

[Taken]

Your misquoting of Isaiah 24 and your off topic reference to Psalm 103:22 is rather telling Jay.

Happy for you to study these familiar sections of Scripture and return with something more substantial.

So far in this discussion we have had Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28; 2 Peter 2 & Jude 6 as the evidence to suggest Angels in Heaven sin and yet only one verse reads as such, but lacks the context to prove it.

I believe the word is flimsy.

F2F

You seem to be completely oblivious to the facts regarding angels.

Angels were Created before manKind.

Angels were Created “holy”.

All Angels ARE spirits.

All Angels “First Estate” was Heaven.

Gods KINGDOM and THRONE IS Heaven.

God Establishes the Laws, Rules, Accepted behavior IN His KINGDOM.

All Angels have “FREEWILL”, to think, believe, act, do AS THEIR own WILL chooses.

ANY Angel who exercises his FREEWILL to disobey, reject, rebell AGAINST Gods Laws, Rules, Accepted behavior IN Gods Kingdom…
Becomes made “BANISHED” from Gods KINGDOM.

Heaven is ABOVE…the Earth and Hell.

An Angels BANISHMENT FROM Heaven…MEANS “such an Angel” forfeits his FIRST “Estate”, and thereafter has “a different” ESTATE. The OPTION for an BANISHED Angels “different ESTATE”….Is Downward.

Downward FROM Heaven…IS:…
Earth and Hell, which is where BANISHED angels have taken up “residency” as their “new ESTATE”. They are called “FALLEN”….since they NO LONGER are occupants, residents of HEAVEN which IS ABOVE the Earth.

You being a HUMAN, have as your FIRST ESTATE…EARTH.
Angels Banished FROM Heaven who have their Residency, also on Earth….can be YOUR friend, mentor, influencer, OR foe, enemy…

It is YOUR FREEWILL, to decide, pick, choose an Angel Banished to Earth, to BE…”YOUR” friend, mentor, influencer, foe or enemy….

There are ALSO “holy angels” who remain “holy”, and their ESTATE “remains” Heaven…
WHO…VISIT Earth, go Home to their ESTATE Heaven….VISIT Earth, go Home to their ESTATE…(repeat, repeat).

You might think of that LIKE, going on vacation, talking a BREAK from WORK, then returning Home.
OR…
You might think of that LIKE, a BUSINESS trip, going to another place to DO BUSINESS for your BOSS.<—> That would be the appropriate concept, regarding “holy angels” whose ESTATE, Occupancy, Resiency, IS HEAVEN…yet they routinely COME “DOWN” to EARTH to accomplish “works” for their BOSS…ie God….then RETURN to their ESTATE, to give their “REPORT” to their BOSS…ie God.

Banished “angels” do not “return” to their “FIRST “estate” ie Gods KINGDOM…they have been…and do busy themselves with MAKING the EARTH…’their Kingdom”….and THE occcupants of the EARTH…(human manKIND)….their “LOYAL” subjects.

You, like ALL Humans ON the EARTH, have the FREEWILL OPTION, to willingly BE “a loyal subject” TO a fallen angel, who was BANISHED from Heaven….
Or decide to freely choose Gods OFFERING to be MADE wholly, whole and holy, and thus have a RIGHT to OCCUPY and HAVE residency IN Gods KINGDOM.

Bottom line…eventually…Gods KINGDOM SHALL encompass…HEAVEN and EARTH, with ONLY wholly, whose and holy OCCUPANTS residing ON Heaven and Earth…

ALL those…angels and mankind who REJECTED choosing that OPTION…will become BANISHED and sent FURTHER DOWN, “INTO” the center of the EARTH…
WHILE God and His FAITHFUL, wholly, whole and holy FAMILY shall LIVE FOR EVER….
VOID, WITHOUT, ever again being subject to the Presence of anti-god beings.

You can either … BELIEVE it, or NOT.
You can either … UNdERSTAND it, or NOT.

It IS and SHALL BE … according to Gods Will, regardless of what you Believe or Understand.

 

[MA2444]

Welcome back!

The Holy Spirit is God's Power and its seen everywhere like a Divine hand weaving through the lives of those who trust in Him.

It's a poor example because God is not asking you to fight something like the Holy Spirit - foolish really.

F2F

So if you are able to see the work of the Holy Spirit and then it therefore proves the Holy Spirit's reality to you...why can't you see the work of the enemy also?

It's a poor example because God is not asking you to fight something like the Holy Spirit - foolish really.

It is not foolish because even your carnal intellect will tell you that...if the Holy Spirit is real then all of the other spirits that Jesus spoke of are also real. They would have to be. God's word is either true or it isnt. The miracles that Jesus performed the absolute most above anything else, even healings was...casting out evil spirits. Jesus did that everywhere. So how can you say it is not true?


I said don't you believe what Ephesians 6 says? and you said...

No, I don't believe what you make of it.

So you dont believe the word of God? This should be a red flag for you Brother! It would say to me that...whoa maybe there are things I dont know or refuse to believe? But waitaminute...if you refuse to believe then from wherein is your faith based?

You can read your bible and dont believe it. You can see the hand of the Holy Spirit all around you in the world working, and you wont believe Him either. What does that tell you? That you have been reading the word with your carnal self and have no contact with the Holy Spirit at all.

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak. Eph 6:10–20.

What were the evil powers in Paul's day? Who did Paul wrestle against in his ministry?

List them:-

Look bro, that's not how it works. We're having a discussion here, ok? That means you say something, then I respond to what you said and I tell you what your error is and what it really means in my response to you and then I asked you some questions...
What did you do? You copied/pasted some good scripturers and then asked me another question...wth?

WHere is your explaination of what that passage means exactly if I (and so many others, lol) are wrong about it? You offered no explaination. You have not proven anything whatsoever about your assertions that there's no such thing as evil spirits.

You want a list of them from me. (I can give a list of probable spirits that he dealt with then, and provide many scriptures to back it up. I'd be glad to list them for you! As soon as you learn to respond properly. You answer my questions after reaing my explanations so far and ignore a response by asking more questions, so you get nothing more from me until you actually start participating with real responses.

You sound like a babe in Christ rather than the I dunno, Professor that you posture yourself to be. How long have you beeen walking with the Lord? (I've been walking with the Lord since 9/22/09 so I've had enough time to learn some things and have no problem debating this thing with you....but you dont seem to work and play well with others, professor. Lol.

 

[MA2444]

WHo can tell me what was the first sin committed and by whom?

Very first one ever.

 

[face2face]

I believe it’s genesis 6 and exodus 20. Wouldn’t it also have been the same realm where Lucifer developed his pride?

Do go on...

 

[face2face]

Huh? You deny Satan is the Adversary who is a fallen angel?

Wrangler the whole thread has seen many try to prove its existence without success. Read through it - so many unanswered questions.
F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Wrangler the whole thread has seen many try to prove its existence without success. Read through it - so many unanswered questions.
F2F

Just asking a simple question. If you cannot answer simply, so be it.